Joe Rogan Experience #10053 — Jeff Novitzky Transcript

Transcript

0:00 four three two one boom got a little thing going on here now a little circle hello jeff as oral turinamol. And this was over a year ago. What was determined to be the source of this stuff? suspension because really one key thing came out of arbitration. So John went to arbitration before So he's a very, very respected guy. enhanced the athlete's performance. So A, non-intentional. So non-intentional ingestion.

3:30 He was a little bit critical of USADA. He thought, you know, he's intimately familiar with his Yeah, well, look, you know, and it's detailed in the arbitration hearing at all. Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't John test negative, then test positive for extremely low numbers? and then studied the excretion of his urine and what was coming out of it over the weeks and

6:16 That's a good question, and that's basically the question at point. short or medium term metabolites. Now, again, we'll get into this a little bit more, but I But we're seeing this strange action with the long-term M3 metabolite. Now, how much time is it detectable, the actual drug itself? But apparently, this was part of his protocol for Russian athletes.

9:33 Now, what is the window that this metabolite is supposed to be detectable in the body? That's the thing. indicated a long-term effect, right? 28th. Over this last year, there's been a lot of study into this long-term metabolite. As I metabolite 4 he had been tested you know for it he had been tested multiple times in the program Let's explain a picogram to someone because it's a preposterously small thing.

12:33 If you split that 58 million times a grain of salt, each one is a picogram. So the first one was, collection date was July 28th, 2017. anti-doping experience. Here's what he told me about when you're analyzing small picogram levels. science, but, and I think this instance comes to play. Be real careful if you're going to be the it's not that significant at the picogram level what is the window where this long-term metabolites

15:57 detection and mass spectrometric characterization This substance was created by the East Germans in the 70s and 80s and was part of their state-sponsored doping program where they were doping their athletes. There's very different effects on the body. substance there's instances where the chemical name is different but the substance is actually the same so when trying to compare two substances you know make sure if you're at home doing that

18:17 other than knowing it's different than the substance here. So, has it been replicated anywhere? it's only available on the black market. on it's our our products are all third-party verified but in the initial They use creatine to cut cocaine with. I worked cases involving street distribution of recreational drugs, including cocaine. What's the time period he's talking about there?

22:07 small picogram amount and the short and midterm metabolites in the small picogram amount we have Again, for those at home that want to look it up, the study was published in the Endocrine Society publication. Day 128 showed 174 picograms. a fat tissue called the, let me look this up and make sure I got this right, adipose tissue. Maybe, but I don't think Olympic wrestling matches with an MMA fighter,

25:37 So there's no studies out there, you know, on this stuff. Well, I mean, someone could try it with something else, Is there a way to bypass those excretion rates? Not only are these metabolizing and there's no metabolites of them, but you could also be fooling the biological passport. For people that are not familiar with this terminology, we're just talking about microdosing,

28:36 before is that it's a constant race to try to keep up with more advanced cheaters it is and now to one picogram 10 000 20 000 times i am almost under the theory that the pendulum has cases that some of the regularly prescribed prescription drugs, specifically diuretics, is it safe to say that this is unprecedented? where over time, you would see a reading. The next test, it would go away. And the next time,

32:32 So it's actually more than the time before. Again, apples and oranges, different substances. good they were unable to detect anything in the picogram level um again for for reference very So look, WADA even says, as long as you can get to two nanograms, you can retain our accreditation. one picogram came from you could be breathing again contaminated air drinking contaminated

35:23 Our UFC program basically mirrors that. and we're bringing that up on the Science has to determine that there hasn't been a re-administration. It's the only study, but I think then, if there's only one study, you have to go to anecdotal evidence, right? Every country. This seems to me to be like a critical thing that could affect. Again, one of the most respected minds in anti-doping, PhD chemist um his answer in terms of re-administration um was this and you

39:20 in Mr. Jones's sample and taking into account the human pharmacokinetic characteristics world, and these are them. By putting these things in writing, putting their reputations on the line They don't normally do it. I would rather not work for them. Joe, my last 17 years of my career, And entering into the equation, the issues of breaking the rules, the issues of the health and safety aspects when you have young.

42:27 One of the things that I've said about you is you're a guy who loves to catch people cheating. In the UFC program now with what we've established here, absolutely. There's a portion of me that said, he did it if i was 21 or 22 years old and immature i may have made the same decision there was some legal stuff with the testosterone replacement therapy that just threw everything

44:59 estimation might have been moved over into a position where, okay, now it's getting a little issue of a microdosing or an intentional use that's reached that level. Why are the labs even You'll lose faith in your athletes. no it was a uh a lip balm for sunburn it was for sunburnnt lips and it had some ridiculously small trace amount That makes sense.

47:57 See, that's how crazy it's gotten. he's talked about it pretty openly and he used some sort of a cream and accepted his penalty Frank Mir, the same as John Jones his first time through, was sanctioned. They adjudicate completely in a vacuum. I've never worked for USADA. and kind of implement this new program. But I've never been an employee of USADA. talk with them and a week later I get a phone call asking if I want to come work for them and

51:27 But when it came to performance-enhancing drugs, there was no class that myself or really any other federal agent or law enforcement agent goes through surrounding distribution of performance-enhancing drugs. he started, you know, kind of walking me through this. He put me in touch with USADA, and, you They don't now. So that would be what we're talking about.

53:57 if he knew something separate from you know that he wasn't doing but someone else yeah and again i The idea that John Jones, one of the greatest fighters of all time, is actually working as an informant. Or we know that it's a thing. He was two years. His came from a contaminated supplement. and judge you know the set of facts and in that case mclaren's group said usada i think

57:13 into establishing that he was not guilty and that, you know, he feels like they chased I said, okay, well, that's likely the candidate of where it came from. Now, there also needs to be a differentiation between someone who's intentionally cheating and someone that just makes a naive supplement choice. Pete Otherwise, people would just take these We tell our athletes, stay away from anything marketing as a testosterone booster.

1:00:31 determine what level the prohibited substance is in that based on the interview with the athlete Correct. Now what Shout out to Donna. So we can get on there. So you can go find spreadsheets on the Internet, at least from a a weekly basis of when our athletes were tested and how many times every week god And of course, I'm like, okay, well, he's fighting pretty soon.

1:03:34 So when was this? Eight. no short-term metabolites, September 21st, October 2nd, October 11th, and November 14th. to previous tests specifically on clomiphene that this could be this pulsing correct result of realized there's an issue when you're Nevada, you don't even have jurisdiction over the August test. Goddamn, USADA. So I certainly hope that no subsequent tests

1:08:29 by the book. next week. In fact, they, I think, were understanding these issues, but said, look, you know, optically, this doesn't look great. So you're taking, you know, you're taking a chance here that we could say, well, we need more information. They've had two very public hearings on John when they suspended his license, So with the reemergence of the picogram quantity of this M3 long-term metabolite,

1:11:38 And then the second thing, which we haven't covered, is these experts said, based on these But in October, could you have said, hey, look, here's this issue? So what they've told me is, look, we tried to hurry that along as fast as possible. Well, again, when Nevada first got notified, they thought, like, we were hoping, well, he's had four negative tests, so he's probably going to be negative going forward here, right?

1:14:02 is potentially going to get reduced. At this point, this close to a fight, Nevada has jurisdiction. like what is going on in my life I can't get a fucking break I'm trying to be careful I don't fault them. This is a complicated issue that optically doesn't look great, and to do anything in a rushed manner would be difficult. I mean, Dana and I went on SportsCenter and announced it in a three-minute hit.

1:17:24 And that John would not have retained any you know the other thing that was being looked at was was fairness to these athletes really you're career your next fight you could be fighting a main event on you know a fight pass and progress Going forward, is there any way we could ever prevent And this is all confidential that USADA doesn't release all this information?

1:20:46 4,400 tests. So I think it's going to be more of a burden. You saw it showing up in more doorsteps baseball was there the department of defense was there there's been war fighters who have purchased perfect one together. What does it look like? Over the last month, we've been authoring a paper your safety they stop listening goes in one ear out the other this is a i mean it's a silly

1:23:29 been proven to be effective but that's that's weird too right it's like they're effective happen to an athlete that used an approved line of supplements it's a get out of jail free card we're allowing in the clubhouse or in a facility are and they use nsf supplements they had zero But it's coming from someone who's in the supplement business me that's the wild west out there boy is

1:26:06 Exactly. wrong. He obviously did. John has two times now tested positive for prohibited substances however He's a human being, he feels, and he hears what people are saying about them, looking into that that's really what's required to get a comprehension and understanding of it. if you used oral Terenobal eight or nine months ago, there could still be an advantage that you'd

1:29:21 I can't find it. He's not the only one. and if it's showing that these are these long-term residual metabolites that are People love to call it cheat. understanding is early quarter one so look you know don't take my word for it wait until january I mean, it's just to have them to move all the way to California. Moving forward from here, what changes and what do we do to stop something like this from happening?

1:33:46 want to put a button on this there's no evidence whatsoever of any microdosing so this is one of Because it's Grigory. These are the only tests we have that show these long-term, short-term, and medium-term metabolites. Over the last five years. profess that I am, but what do I have to go to? him. And again, especially recently recently one of the all this science is rooted out about how long this stuff stays in your system, long-term metabolites for months, maybe years.

1:38:03 impulsive it's one of the things that I buy all the science, and I'm a big John Jones fan. It's one of the reasons why he opened up the fight with Shogun at 22 years old with a flying knee. but oftentimes surround themselves with morons and these morons give them poor advice and these when it comes to supplementation and when it comes to steroid use.

1:40:47 And I hope this is the last time we ever have to talk about John in this term. yes let me see that so see what Siri says it's hold on a second Let's see what Siri says. Hold on a second. Let's see what Siri says. I've never tried this. Yeah. did they do that well i think we talked about you're like hey i don't know they they just did it i got taken down um so i think i told you that it's back up

1:42:50 But two or three people in that walk, when I go backstage to check on you, you saw the golden snitch. His background is unbelievable. anything to market this well that's getting to my story here it's not marketing but let me finish And my middle daughter is very artistic. history of presence i'm like what the hell is this so i open up the box oh my she's got this

1:45:22 There we go, baby. ladies and gentlemen the circle is closed look at that come on So I posted a picture. Nice. He called you the golden rat now. And I think he likes to call skeptical. They'd be done. There's no way. what what else can the ufc and i do um when these experts are putting those absolutes out there and It's just not wise. It goes away, comes back higher than before,

1:49:22 You have to sell these. I don't want anything exclusive. There's times. There you want to call bullshit. There's times.