Joe Rogan Experience #1009 — James Damore Transcript

Transcript

0:00 five four three two one Really? So, first of all, thanks for doing this. stuff. you're wrong. You're just like have white male privilege. emotional outbursts or anything. if you don't have all your bases covered, two black women, two Asian men, if you don't have all your bases covered to black women to asian men if you don't have all your bases And I obviously don't want there to be any sexism,

4:35 A meeting? to think to think about race in a new way or something so they're just assuming you're guilty looking for you're fine. Or if you're an indian woman even better right is that how it works You get away with it because no big deal because they're the ones who are racist. So like, what would they tell you Yeah. male typical behavior is rewarded just as you know competitiveness is rewarded in a lot of corporate world, but

8:42 Yeah. Right. allowing people to be more cooperative and, you know, actually, so for example at google you're really rewarded for That seems like a bad thing for teamwork. Now, the blowback from this has been very intriguing, you know, as an outsider, like looking at it for the, when I first heard about it, you know, I thought, well, this mean, angry man must've written some things saying that women suck at tech or they suck at

11:28 Yeah, I think it was Gizmodo or Motherboard or something. interviews with some of them. Because I was looking for something that could be, could be like evidence of massage the only thing that i could find and this is a very mild criticism is that you were saying i believe you use the term neurotic that women were more likely Yeah. Yeah. This is the work of someone who's carefully considering an issue

14:14 or reality and certainly not on science. and what we could do to maybe encourage more women to do it instead of doing this sort of blanket style diversity where you're just like, oh, we need two of these and we need two of those. Right. prejudices when it comes to what they feel like are disenfranchised or you know marginalized people that they don't realize is that you know people will automatically create stereotypes no matter

17:03 And so you'll automatically create that stereotype So that aspect, I think, is bad. treated people nicer. You know, if we didn't have racism, if we didn't have sexism, Companies can take a hit on the stock market because of an article that someone could write about a lack of diversity. Yes. But the secondhand story was that he would go into these groups,

20:46 I remember it only barely. by some random activist within the company. They have activists in the company. everyone up my management chain, Did anything make you go, I could have worded that better? it got leaked you got fired yeah soon after but they knew about the memo already right so and Like this is an opportunity to have a discussion about this subject.

23:50 it's not all women or all men, but there's a tremendous amount of evidence that shows that I use their products all the time. That's one of the first things I do. I check the news on my phone and I check the Google News. I have a whole setup, but that's like one of the first things I do. better view of the world where just you know yeah if you're interested in technology great

26:13 People don't want to even accept. right i mean doesn't it mean we're monsters that means all men are monsters yeah when it's often that it's not really a gender issue. a lot of men are gross you know i mean it's not all of us obviously but i mean just if i want to Yeah, so nursing, veterinarians, schools. because I don't want to trash on Google. And the good thing about tech companies in general,

29:59 out. And I also think when I think at least about the smartest people in the world or the the most innovative Right. But I think unfortunately their political bias has created, they haven't forgotten their don't be evil motto. It's just that don't be evil has turned into just don't disagree with us And because they are in there, whether you want to believe it or not.

33:00 But if a company comes along like Google and it's like, you know, you can't be racist towards white people. You know? Where, you know, they're completely shutting down the conversation. Now, why did they do it? Nazi was definitely used. no these people aren't actually that and you know they've just created a bubble of listening, I was reading it and I was trying to like, I'd read your memo. So I read your memo.

36:06 just get away with it yeah and then no one questions it it's not open for debate that's got started right this is how it got started everyone was looking for communists and every Well, back then you would. Back And this is one of them, that diversity is of the utmost importance and that anything that does not challenge that idea or anything that does not support that idea, rather, is racist.

38:40 and label anyone that disagrees Is it biological biological i don't we used to just have tests and then that would be how you got into Harvard, for example, Wow. Wow. No. We shouldn't try to keep Jewish people out. Do you have very many Asian friends? south korea so that you could kick ass period you're not gonna come over here and fuck off So to discriminate against that guy and say,

43:07 He would never say that. How far do you throw a discus? you're doing some slippery work, man. It's the same sort of ideology. There are people that are so much fucking smarter than me that when I talk to them, I mean, I guess with a company, is to try to figure out how to manage all of these unfair aspects of being a biological entity in a civilization. And I don't think Google's

45:55 everywhere. You're talking about this. Yeah. I mean, hopefully people will start seeing that And like stuff way back in high school that I might've done. Yeah, that's the thing. And he leaned this stuff towards sexism, even though there is some science behind it, They were like, oh yeah, we've shown that women are better in school and are doing better

47:38 You won. Why did it hurt? There's so many variables. Like, there's outliers. There's a spectrum. I mean, I wouldn't want to do that. Right. And, you know, they never even say what exactly I could have done differently to not do Everything else is fine. Yeah. And I just think that that's really going down the wrong path. like i don't i don't think you promoted any stereotypes.

52:17 40%? shouldn't the result be, let's just not discriminate, just be open and just try to So anything that could make anyone feel offended, particularly people in certain groups. tow the line there, you know, like you're saying, shaming you. And that, that is a, Yeah. Yeah. That's so weird Yeah. And nothing is really off the table in this discussion, but that's not happening.

58:07 And I definitely have a bias where I thought, Well, There's extreme people on the right and there's extreme people on the left. so they can be prejudiced, but they cannot be racist. Most people in the center look at those as fools. I didn't do anything. Yeah. We should be having an open discussion about what is wrong. Yeah. what Jordan Peterson would say is just,

1:01:19 play for points. And I think that there's a real issue when people do things for social brownie points like If you don't tell me how, I want a fucking apology. of these things yeah if you want to address the gender gap yeah and you know that was what you There's no way around it, but the right way of approaching it is not to distort the facts, especially when you're thought of as being, I mean, Google is essentially a pillar of information.

1:03:31 But Google is hugely important. other than the word neuroticism i just don't if you got fired for the word neuroticism some non-disclosure agreement or something and then just pay you off yeah yeah but wow that was You know? oh yes, maybe there was this yeah you're not supposed to be able to discriminate on based on someone's age or But that's thought of as conservative because it's convenient, right?

1:08:29 like socially, this thing that Trump's doing with, Oh, who knows? And they're like, you have to go back to Guatemala. lives easier, you know, whether it's socialized medicine or whatever, whatever we could do Just give people an opportunity to do well. That's a good argument. lottery ticket thing or that you know that if that if you, if you make things too easy

1:11:40 and i think it's debatable it'll be be interesting to see, you know, Finland, I think, Scotland. Yeah. And I think Elon Musk, who is, of course, a part of this automated car revolution, and he's creating these trucks that they're going to start using to haul things. working and then you'll lose a little bit, but it's never an actual incentive to not work.

1:14:37 who are much more willing to take risks. But if we do have some sort of strong safety net, Theranos. And then almost overnight, she's worth nothing because they found out it doesn't work. speech and i was like how is this woman this super genius well it turns out she wasn't you know she Right. Did you read that one? So you saved up some cash. Yeah. That's good. Still trying to figure out what's next. Have you gotten any job offers?

1:17:41 I mean, I'm famous for what I wrote, but I'm not. Not at least for you because you got fired. out issues in the workplace right and you just said with the lawsuit like it's absolutely happening Did you save emails where people were shaming people for being white or shaming people for having implicit bias because they were white or harassing people?

1:20:46 or even lower i think there's a lot of libertarians so that would be the main counter to the extreme left but and then like so like what the main retributions against people are the social uh you know bringing up people in a two-parent household, Well, I think any time you silence discussion you don't want to encourage people to be in toxic relationships and then show the child that,

1:23:28 And, you know, there's all these negative stereotypes of men and white people. these groups of people are disadvantaged. of their internal studies where you know they were trying to show how racist or sexist Google was and how then they were just ignored. And so, you know, there's no way out of it. You know, there's definitely and i went in a little bit in this in the document too where

1:26:56 That's what's really interesting what competition they have in gmail yeah who gives a fuck about hotmail i i started using yahoo mail Is there a way to find out? There's some random things where, yeah, they can basically just spy on you completely there anything in your contract that allows them to spy on you there's some random to buy a movie ticket or something you're allowed to use that phone yeah so that's a weird marriage

1:30:12 somehow get into Google's networks. Whoa. So, I mean, they're rightfully paranoid about some you're anti-diverse or you're pro-diversity but you're also you're supporting that like as a company that's a giant issue like to allow china to censor google services don't they have some weird thing you can get around that though but that's super Really? a huge market share for that because, you know, Facebook and Twitter are also ways to get to the

1:33:46 I get interesting stories get sent to me. which are very similar things and you, we do our demographic research and we you're not going to give these random ads to people Yeah. Yeah, it's... Nobody uses Hotmail. where where are you what do you do with your time yeah i read books uh respond to media requests I'm just very conscious about a lot of these gender stereotypes. I use the word they whenever the gender of someone is unknown or just unimportant.

1:37:42 former mayor of los angeles did that really yeah his name is tony velar and his wife had this ethnic name and so they changed it kept that fucking ethnic name as long as you don't google search it yeah it'd be nice if everybody just kept their own fucking name yeah but then what do you do to involves relationships which is just so bizarre which is why 50 of them fall apart you know yeah

1:40:39 Is it the 50% of the initial ones get breaking up That's pretty bad. a commitment than divorce and marriage because you could you could easily get divorced people As long as the person's reasonable, get a reasonable person. The divorce surge is over, but the myth lives on. What? divorced in 20 more years. I would like You think it's about 25% get They're throwing around too many.

1:44:30 I think this is still talking about... It says, people are just getting married later so they're So not living together but not getting married is another thing that's happening. people like rituals you know it feels good to you know like say it and do it and make it real and i i son of a bitch i generally just don't get that angry so i think that's part of it but that's

1:47:47 That's interesting. has um how do how have you come through all this like do you feel damaged by this at all do you feel like like your name has been besmirched uh definitely people like outright insulting you there was one person that was like just on the roads just f you So there have been random people like, oh, are you James Damore? I had a friend that was like that.

1:50:55 He went the other way. eventually get ostracized and maybe that's what happened. That's a big issue with the left. Sure. And, you know, even though they might have voted for Trump or something, they're not some evil person. at least understand what's happening and what their worldview is. And these people on the other side, they're incorrect. Yeah.

1:54:37 you approaching this and trying to be like really open-minded about it yeah you know like i see this that might have a differing opinion, but they also might be intelligent and you might be able to like sort it out. Like, let me parse out what your thoughts are and see where I differ fucking existence together. It's, it's very difficult to work out. We're just so many

1:56:54 biases that they may or not you know yeah and there's no solution for some of those too where you know you just say there's some you were in front of your computer and you're ready to press send would you uh maybe i would wait for my year-end bonus so much verification that you need to go through to be able to join one of these you have to have Well, not you, but me joking around in this conversation.

2:00:11 don't like. Wow. So a little, little psychological covert warfare. Yeah. And that's also going to Right. Yeah. very left-wing ideological echo chamber yeah and i mean i saw it a lot too on the comments of the something right and that's not saying oh yeah these people are just horrible people they actually want to help everyone and they think that these uh social norms and government programs may be

2:03:22 Yeah. that's not the case. So now you get a lot of really fragile or really poorly thought out ideas and uh as long Yeah. But overt signs of discriminating against people based on their political orientation is seen as okay. outrageous than it is to be honest. but also don't you think that it's a, Fuck him. I think as the dust settles, we will get more and more truth out of people.

2:08:12 I was like, hey, like you fuckers, you left out a big part of what this is. I think that's where the – I mean, obviously, I don't know. why we have the problems that we have Like you're changing narratives. There's a lot of blowback though. bonus. It That's what I've always wanted. not just dangerous to say it promotes harmful gender stereotypes it's disingenuous and why

2:12:02 discussing them can you actually dispel some of these things. You got like some big-ass crazy sunglasses. them we're going to sabotage their work and we're going to try to get them fired when they are looking for another job we're going to I think there's multiple lists spread out. So they're going to go full steam ahead. because I think it's a lot of the same things

2:15:22 and you're okay. I mean, it's just engineering a civilization. Like, they're making the easy decision of not really, the truth as I see it. And, you know, if you turn your back on men working with other men, I mean, I would say that there are men that are just as agreeable and just as much of a pushover, say. So where do you go from here besides suing the fuck out of Google?

2:18:37 Well, even if you lose in court, that only if they don't fit this certain party are there a lot of activists that are trying to attack Google that only if they don't fit this certain party line. if there's only incentive coming from One in 100 million chance alleged gender pay gap at Google is random, says class action lawyer. Look what they're saying here, you know

2:21:04 Several dozen came forward in a matter of weeks. That's a pretty high level let's say three dozen, let's go crazy. Heard from. The class action... And I don't know how an individual The problem is when you control for performance, Is it lack of suppression that the women experience? Let's just break that down real quick. What it implies, and this is where it's disingenuous, is that two people working side by side doing the same job and the male is getting 77 or a dollar for the woman's 77 cents.

2:24:45 And that's irrespective of what gender you have. going to meetings. So it's really inefficient They have beds? discriminatory towards tall people yeah tallest heightest yeah like there's ableists right there's If you mock people that aren't able to do things, you become an ableist. are you like six four six three yeah hook you up with a six four pod man we can stretch your legs

2:27:10 Is that what your education is in? Yeah. You got to figure out what the path's going to be, huh? Sure. And I'm shocked that the reaction has been as extreme as it's been Probably, yeah. finally were like oh no it's they're currently just being labeled as white supremacist sites. And it's, Yeah, I'm at least happy that it didn't happen during Yeah Yeah?

2:33:16 I knew this kid who was a chess master. Yeah, doing it a lot and just obsessing over it. And this is actually one of the differences and But it's unclear because like so much of coding is just, you know, writing server code and this unfortunate uh is it unfortunate because it's just it is i mean yeah yeah i don't play chess and they don't have as good social skills

2:36:34 But, I mean, that's not a bad thing either. Do you think that's also because of the financial rewards of tech are so extreme in comparison? And the men feel like they can't enter nursing because that's too feminine. Yeah, I think there's a lot of evidence to support that. And I think that was essentially a big part Appreciate it, man. Almost three hours.