Joe Rogan Experience #1019 — Bryan Fogel Transcript

Transcript

0:00 All right, we're live. Icarus. The extent of the cover-up and the, first of all, for folks who don't know what it's about, So the initial idea, I guess I'll say it's streaming on Netflix right now. They released it a month ago. Who should we be mad at? was like 18th place. now if you tell us that you doped and that armstrong doped you go free and we aren't going

4:04 and pushing the boundaries until he the boundaries and pushing the boundaries Yeah. So his confession to me wasn't really the shocker. to make the film initially was to explore using kind of just the armstrong story as the framework And professional cycling, I mean, it is just a dirty sport. at least that's going on to some extent. something on that cusp of medical technology and human evolution trying to outsmart

9:08 I mean, it was just, how many different things did you take um i took a lot And essentially each one of these scientists I'm asking essentially the same questions. yes. And I said, but will you do that? And they said, no. And they said, the biggest variable And he actually is the first guy who did the testing for the 1984 Olympics in Los Angeles, And then he would develop another methodology, and then the very next day there'd be someone around it.

13:06 with this. And so he has, you know, I think a lot of frustrations with the anti-doping system. And He runs the WADA lab, Because Gregory had basically come to the United States as a spy to figure out what the Americans were going to beat him against in the 1984 Olympics, that I'm an American filmmaker making a documentary exploring the anti-doping system in sport.

15:53 to me. And, um, and that, you know, was this moment where I went, okay, clearly there is a, Bad. I mean, he's this guy who's living this, you know, he's, you love him. And at the same time, And in his mind, even though I was, quote, unquote, cheating, I wasn't cheating anyone out of anything. if I show essentially how it doesn't work. See how good I do and then the next year I'm going to go in just dope to the gills with the hope that

19:06 This one was knocked out entirely. thinking about what those risks are. You have to, you know, be fully committed or you're going to lose or you're going And so I've always rode, but I stopped racing. run at it, I mean, I like radically amped up my training program for like six months ahead of time because I was going to do this thousand mile race through the French Alps in Europe.

21:25 creatine, but I was always doing protein shakes. I was doing, um, So then the race is over how long after that do you start doping? six months after then you you get back together with Gregory. who unbeknownst to me at the time had been following the story of essentially And these two whistleblowers are now like enemies of the state, was they were forced to,

26:06 And it was a major pivot point in the story. Do you think Gregory Rechenkov is involved? Russia is suspended from world track and field. Gregory tells me that the KGB, the FSB, have plotted a suicide plan to make it look like he's killed himself. But he gets out of Russia five days after this 335-page report breaks. And it was a blip. It was a blip. They hadn't tagged his passport. It happened so fast. He

31:05 Yeah. This changes whether the Olympics want to acknowledge it or not. This changes all of The world has never seen an Olympic Games like those Beijing Games, the opening ceremonies, the closing ceremonies. And on top of that, they needed to win. that every two years as a platform for Russia to assert itself geopolitically. And in so doing, And according to him, what would happen, different than what Russia did in Sochi,

36:09 And they're basically chaperoned, And he had knowledge of that. And that is where the idea started to come Yes. And these are considered the global standard in world sport. And they're unpenetrable. And if you in the Olympic vault, in the Olympic, you know, labs where they're holding these samples. Well, the A sample, they were legally able to open it for testing.

40:23 of the room where they were aliquoting the urine. There a secret hole in the wall of the room where they were I mean, Gregory showed me the blueprints. I mean, this was thought out years ahead of time, They would dump out the urine, bring it back to Gregory sitting in this room, and Gregory would then put that same clean urine into that B bottle, reseal the B bottle,

42:18 What can you not take? So he's responsible for testing all of Russian athletes and international athletes coming into Russia for competition. And this is different types of steroids, correct? And what he figured out through the science is that out so all the russian athletes are basically knowing you know, so he's figuring out. So all the Russian athletes are basically knowing, you know, they're on his system.

46:08 We're going to have our athletes dope full tilt so they can be at their very, very best. what's going on in the U.S. and Russia, the Cold War has never really ended. They spent $50 billion on those Olympics. Nobody had ever done that. His approval rating had been on the decline, and right after they win those sochi olympics putin's approval rating soars to 95 percent

49:18 athletes from competing in Brazil. Gregory can't talk he's in protective custody and so I'm the behind the scenes kind of as a puppet master because Gregory can't talk. He's in protective custody the IOC and Luzon. They do forensics on these bottles and they see the scratches on the bottles. what you ate that day, the gravity, essentially the weight of your urine changes basically what the content of what, what's, what, what your body is. Is that why like dehydrated people have dark

51:58 Because the biological passport is blood. They find evidence of tampering. I think of their 390 athletes go to Rio. And the only athletes that are banned are the World Track and Field Team emails between, you know, on and on that have been forensically proven using metadata where these emails were coming from. They have only trying to figure out essentially how to push it under the carpet

56:24 or not they are going to allow they stand for. And it calls into question that if the Olympics are up there going, play clean, be true, be fair, don't do this, play by the rules, come into these competitions, you know, and respect fellow athletes. unpunishable? What do you think is going on? I think that you have billions and billions and billions of dollars from Russia hosting those Sochi games. You know, this is business. There is no interest in essentially just, you know, knocking over the apple cart in the protection of fair sport or geopolitical interests and business interests.

1:01:00 Are they hoping that this is just going to be swept under the rug and that there's going to be more news that sort of drowns this out? this man have pulled off this system, this huge elaborate system by himself? And then in so doing, And this is all a man who was working for the Well, it's essentially highlighting the intentions and what the Russians are willing to do in sport.

1:05:24 After the fact because they had new There's been so many allegations of deception and fraud when it came to the Olympics in the first place. I really do. I mean, it's God. government workings and the ministry while we're seeing the government was hacked. Yeah, that was never even a discussion before this cycle coincided together and produced this staggering result.

1:09:55 ineffective at catching cheaters. So like Craig Reedy, who is the president of WADA, is also the vice president of the IOC. ban Russia from the winter games coming up in Pyeongchang. WADA, that was WADA's recommendation, Wow. Now, do you think the banning of the track and field team was just a slap on the wrist, You've got to go investigate bobsled.

1:14:23 I mean, it's a whole thing. And Sebastian Coe became the president. At least it's taking a stance of this kind of behavior is not going to be tolerated. I'm not in contact with him. I don't know what his life's going to be Twitter page, They took her passport away. And he wanted to do this. and the Russians most likely want him dead. And he goes, and this is just, you know, six months ago, goes,

1:21:13 that by not acknowledging, you know, him is not to acknowledge the truth. And that is what is of coming forward and instead try to turn him into a criminal. What is the impact of this been like for you? Because we didn't know if we were under surveillance. and that it showed the extent to which Russia and the ministry was willing to, you know, Agency lab. Those should be two independent things. But these two were working together

1:26:39 That's Stephen Freer's film, The Program, based on David Walsh. 52. They don't do something and then take responsibility for it. and that once it's public, it'll be in the world. Now, how much time does Gregory have in protective custody? Do they have a determined time period where they're willing to protect him? I mean, it's to my understanding, um, you know, that is, uh, that, that is, uh, the case,

1:30:57 which I'm sure they do now. Russian government. And he was doing his job. And that was his job. It's such a complex issue. you look at what's going on right now with the Olympics, I mean, you know, you come from the MMA world, but we have the flip side of that, which is, you know, human beings are in a constant, we're not done evolving. And he gets into how,

1:34:24 And he goes through the whole history of it The point being is that we're in a, we're in're in an age of medical and scientific technology that the humans of the future are going to be better versions of what we have right now, just through they're going to make their way into athletics and it's going to be a very blurry line between and would literally launch grown men through the air.

1:37:41 Whoa. This is all. fucking monstrous wow and without a doubt juice to the tits i mean no question about especially Fedor Emelianenko. And you see how much bigger difficult to ascertain what was capable, in terms of their tactics and the way they would drill. was just a massive massive part of it yeah I'm sure I mean you know and people Yeah, Victor did the podcast a few years back and was talking about it.

1:41:10 as opposed to even any other sport, that they would not have been able to land had they not been cheating. And it gets very, The implications are massive. You win or you lose and if you win comes all the you know If you look at professional sports, I mean, whether it's the NBA or boxing system, which I think the American mentality is hard to understand. Because here, we're looking

1:44:29 And they're essentially state employees, and their job is to go and compete for their country. every four years people care about gymnastics. And if you don't, you don't. where the athletes, the ones who people are watching, It's staggering what NBC paid for the Olympic rights for the next however many games it is. Nobody. I mean, I don't know what the solution is, but it never set right with me. I always felt like it was gross. I mean, it just didn't make any sense that everyone is getting paid but the athletes.

1:48:27 and the guy apparently was the head medical director of the Olympics guy would get you know a half a million dollars to conceal it there's a positive It made Jamaica, and Victor Conte will talk about this, Where did these people come from? you know, I mean, it's a massive, massive deal to have a top fighter or top athlete representing your country. I mean, it's just a huge deal for you to have the number one

1:51:42 Wasn't there a situation with Serena Williams where the testers came to her house and she locked herself in a safe room and called the police? Gregory. It's really, but the intruder turned, hold on, turned out to be a random drug tester God damn. into number one a lot of people's eyes but to have him test positive like that was so disheartening I think that once you've been on that program or you understand that program,

1:55:06 Contador set the it was actually his best going to see these it's not when or it's not if rather, it's more You would say, well, they'll say, well, it's just a simple procedure. Well, they can do it. Peter Thiel does that on a regular basis. So what do you do about it? You're gonna have a mailman that looks like the Incredible Hulk and you're gonna be watching these scrawny guys fight in the UFC

1:58:45 was really nothing. I mean, who knows? It's probably, there was probably some steroids young Jamie over there and turn him into some sort of crazy freak athlete it's just I mean, like I remember when, you know, a couple of years ago when Germany won the World Cup. And in the case of Icarus, you understand what that is. You've got to think they're already involved in that.

2:01:40 we've already got another 10 or 20 that we're messing with. Especially when you have a state-sponsored program. So part of this system, the only way that it would work is you had to have lambs. was on the state program. God. But the B sample, they would like, you know, there wasn't going to be a need to retest it So they would always have samples to swap for any of the Russian athletes at any time,

2:06:39 they could choose from 16 000 samples wow so they had it all indexed as far as the weight. and there's thousands of missing samples. And then the report, this report, this 335-page report, I'm trying to And so it was, I mean, this was a pretty nutty operation going on. It's amazing that all the athletes kept their mouth shut. Well, in China and in Russia and other countries like this that go through communism and everything,

2:09:32 like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't, you know, they'll tell you how it is. But in public, among their They're doing it right under everyone's nose. And Russia just put this out there basically to fuel the fuel the how long can they keep that going? and I don't remember what the deal was They're like, look, we just had his last $170 million. Just freed after 10 years in jail, told journalists at a press conference in Berlin two days ago that he didn't know how much money he had left.

2:13:18 They put him in jail for quite a long time, 10 years. Yeah, but it's just... them together because when i was watching the film, essentially, I was just thinking about the anti-doping ramifications. It's essentially been a part of global politics forever. And the ability to hide things, hide devious acts and hide money and hide influence and hide manipulation seems to be, it seems to be able to, people seem to be able to find out things quicker and quicker now. other day where where if it's you know i mean look at the instagram age and facebook and everything

2:15:51 that will literally give you the answer, What's a photo? We'll be able to share photos What's a photo? that are listening are doing the exact same thing i think it is entirely possible that in the future some sort of a natural disaster or some sort of a human-created disaster that doesn't keep going the way it's going. No, I mean, because right now we're already in an era where almost anything is discoverable.

2:18:25 doping control forms. So that's how Gregory would know what number corresponded to what athlete. I And she would send the photo to Gregory and the KGB guy in the lab who was assisting him, and so that they would know And that's like a massive portion of this evidence. is already there. gonna get your information yeah unquestionably you know, another thing that's really interesting is that we're looking at photos

2:21:54 this world of vr yes we're essentially you know the you know the idea is is that as you can see I mean, it's inevitable. But you think of all the technologies that are going on right now and why won't there be a chip in your brain that basically takes away pain so that you can, you know, persevere in an MMA fight that takes away your, you know, all these different technologies that are essentially create, you know, controlling your synapses, controlling your reflexes.

2:23:47 That just blew my mind. It'll be you. I mean, that's what Kevlar essentially is. Yeah, if I'm reading it on a science website, for sure I'm not the first one to get the information. on than military basically defense then this is what we spend money on and that is actually This is what we get to see and look at. A stealth? And you just look at it and go, what the fuck is that thing?

2:27:25 You know there's some magnetic drives. They're trying to put together more powerful now. is kind of dependent upon public opinion that's dependent upon sport right and dependent on we lost. a religion it's a cult it is it is an ethos it is and it's something to even fight about yeah Everybody in the state of Colorado would have been like, hell yeah, go Broncos.

2:31:02 That's what I was saying before. We make better shit every year. i think we're better now than we were before which is why things like putin are so disturbing we are as fucked up as we are and undeniably fucked up as it is we are the years old is a very new thing. I think it's a life form. No one's going to stick with the iPhone 7. to a new life form.

2:34:33 It's going to make something that doesn't have any emotions. It's going to make something that and to keep going better and better. the moral ethical argument around anti-doping and sport it wasn't anything it was just purely the argument of hey look at evolution look at reality look at where we're going look at where They represent our ability to manipulate our biology.

2:36:37 That's not just about recovery. It was hilarious. Yeah, Dick Pound. Introduce yourself to a girl like, hey, Yeah, exactly. How do you go from yeah? How do you go from? I think he was Jack. the Olympics for the last, I don't even know how many years, 30 years in all of their sale Is this true? yellow because his liver was overwhelmed You're fine. Well, WADA gets established in 1999.

2:42:09 You just pushed it way too far. Yeah. I mean, look at his shoulder there. I mean, we have this idea. He'd run into guys and he'd be like, he's on the HGH. HGH really so he could tell there's a funny story when i was in moscow um when i go to to meet him after this hot route hot route race And he had went into the process of literally, you know, testing this urine that I'd brought him in Ziploc bags that I'd smuggled with me into Russia.

2:45:49 I mean, it was every single person at this party was like, It was like it was every single, if we were at this party and there was like 30 of them. I helped him. I really enjoyed it. Go check it out. And that GoFundMe page is on your Twitter page? We captured history.