Joe Rogan Experience #1070 — Jordan Peterson Transcript

Transcript

0:00 four three two one boom and we're live 12 rules for life so without reading this so what you're I didn't read any rude things. It's one of the issues that I have with television shows. happened was interesting, too, the way it played itself out. Because I met her in the green room beforehand. It's a trick. They did put the whole thing up on YouTube.

2:59 The Guardian the next day published an article saying that So it's been a, well, what do you say about that? I think like when you go to an Ivy League university, it's like right then and there. you were saying you are opposed to equality of outcome equality of outcome i can't imagine Because with real true freedom, you have the freedom to not engage.

5:41 I mean, he's just fanatical about it. They work so efficiently and so effectively Yeah. Yeah, you can stop them. there's going to be a small number of people will do almost all of the output. resource is not only limited to money, and it doesn't only occur in capitalist societies. And second, we should note that it actually does constitute a problem, which is what the left

8:57 We don't exactly know how to do that. And this thing has perplexed me since I've met you and since you were involved in this original debate over gender pronouns. fill in the blank with all the rest of the descriptives that you'd like to use. Because that's the basic That's the way you look at the world. And I think that that's wrong. That's a bad way of looking at

11:38 is because I have made a strong case, The fact that this has become somehow debatable again is just, especially because it's being done by legislative fiat, they're forcing it. So it's become like a vicious weapon for social justice warrior equality of outcome types. in the article was citing this study that showed very little difference oh yeah i read that damn

14:00 Well, they're the same species. aggressive. If you bet Well, they're all men. average, but out at the extremes, it starts to make a massive difference. So let's say even though it's a relatively large difference. But at the extremes, it's the same thing. And about 85% to 90% of engineers are male. Are the remaining differences significant in how they play out in the world?

17:21 It's like the Jews are overwhelmingly overrepresented. differential outcome in the workplace, So the review was poorly written at best and did not, you are is a guy who's pointing out the reality of the difference between the various types of And whether that is like our friend Alex Honnold, who's a free climber, who is like climbing up these fantastic mountains with no ropes,

20:11 memo they completely fucked up they tried to look you find this look at this Just make his tweet larger. That's exactly right. So, DeMora went to this diversity seminar, He said, well, you know, this is what I think. And then it was there for a long time until it was leaked into the outside world. Well, he's very smart and a very kind guy. And they're pretty equally distributed between boys and girls.

23:36 by looking at a full personality readout whether a person's male or female. It has real decent explanatory power because you might say, well, men have a slight edge in spatial Like, if you offer baby or child chimpanzees, juvenile chimpanzees, well is that such a shock really that's such a surprise so no it's not a surprise? So, yeah. No, it's not a surprise.

26:37 because if I'm reasonable and I'm standing up against the radical left, So she was discussing you in class, and could you fill up, fill in everybody? So anyways, she showed a clip from this, and, well, she got hauled in front of two professors they compared me, It's like, you can't say, that's like playing a video of Hitler and then to assimilate me to that category so carelessly.

29:38 And she also turns out to be a tough cookie. And then people came out and said, no, you're being paranoid. You know, they threw everything but the kitchen sink at me. It's like that, paranoid as I am, let's say, that exceeded the grasp or the reach of my The university, when they apologized, did it in a very mealy-mouthed way. It was exactly diagnostic.

32:47 Well, the tech industry in particular seems to be more left-leaning That's not what he talked about at all. Now it seems to be all about this very toxic tribal ideology. has to disagree with you. And that most people, maybe it's a 60-40 like we were talking about before when it comes to aggressive women versus aggressive men. in many, many institutions.

36:03 The ideology that drives postmodern neo-Marxism, this identity politics movement, podcasts and all these different ways to get this information out. No, they don't. They don't see it coming. They don't well that's what happens when you play identity politics this tribalism but this is really what That's right. that's, that's, that's up to them and whoever else they can convince or ask or entreat or negotiate

38:54 Okay, so... But most Yeah, absolutely are in in venezuela everybody has an equal chance to starve to death so you know how they you know Yeah, that's for sure. Yeah. So it's sort of like the prodroma to the Russian Revolution. And it's so dreadful that words can't do it justice. was taken from them and brought to the cities. So all the farmers starved to death. Now here's how draconian it got.

42:16 So that was just the beginning of the fun in the Soviet Union. in order to ensure equality of outcome that a tyranny is inevitable. And that's right. And the other problem, another problem with equality of outcome, Because there's all sorts of ways to classify people. So, and that's a huge technical problem. equality of outcome? And so there has to be a political voice for the dispossessed.

45:40 And that's not so good. we'll just flip the whole board over, that it doesn't destabilize the entire society, so that it's everybody has an opportunity to advance. Yeah, well, that's the thing, you know, is that most of the people who have a million dollars or more in the United States are old. over the young starting out people. So you say, well, I want

47:59 and they have to live in tents on the street. Road to Wigan Pier. But they hate the rich. by resentment and hatred, as far as I'm concerned. ashamed of themselves and give up some power. The right wingers, the radical right wingers look at am I going to fall in? Do I want to go with oh, no, to hell with that. I'm just going to play to win. You can't even count it accurately.

51:13 ethnic identity politics It's like, get your act together. And it's a very dark chapter about the motivations of the Columbine high school killers because we all die, We all get sick. Everyone's a victim. That's the right answer. Because the rest of it is tribalism. These are supposed to be news outlets. discoveries and sit down and debate them in class. And when I was a kid, when I was in high school,

55:01 And you got to watch these two people in this auditorium debate their points. And you got to see a mediocre mind versus a great mind. one of the things that's also interesting, and this is partly why Silicon Valley leans to the Well, they exist because some of the time your best strategy is to do what other people have done it's a very entrepreneurial, what would you call it,

57:43 And the problem with the conservatives is, the fact that we're different And the answer is, well, we don't know and it helps people make a plan for their life. our ethnicity. Highly demonized The feels-good frog. So they had to figure out what it meant. although they're satirists and juvenile satirists and graffiti types, and, you know, they're playing

1:00:40 you're an infant, and then you have your parents to make a relationship with, you're not socialized. You're not good for anyone. You have to be able to play on a team, man. And I think that there's a very influential line of developmental psychology, I mean, it's a wonderful program. And that, and also means that simultaneously you're taking care of the broader community. So that's kind of your goal. So orient yourself towards that

1:04:01 murderous and genocidal. It's like none of that. The halls are dead silent. You could hear a pin drop because nobody's said so clearly for like 50 years that almost all the meaning that you will need to get you through the You stand up straight and you be courageous despite the fact that life is tragic and tainted by malevolence. some hardcore right-wing

1:06:02 But before that, I was an artist. Well, the other thing I've been telling young men is that, and this is something I think them, and that was also a weird little experience that we can talk about. But I was looking through Or the word has moved in the 300 years or so, 300 years or so since it was translated. And so like one of the things I tell young men, well, and young women as well, but the young men really need to hear this more, I think, is that you should be a monster.

1:08:04 It's like, wrong you should be a monster an absolute to win. What's the difference between trying to win and striving? You want to eradicate striving? If you think of jujitsu, you would think of like brutish individuals engaging in this hard martial art. That's very important. You're increasing your skills. And the people that have never lost are afraid of losing. They're afraid of learning. You're

1:11:01 Can we tell you about some horrible moments on stage where it went wrong? But if it wasn't for that horrible, sick feeling, you're not a genius. You're dimwit. What you should be doing is playing people who are beating Because otherwise you're not pushing yourself beyond your current capacity. and that's the meaning that you get when you're in a domain

1:13:28 But you can adopt a way of traversing through life that is more powerful than the tragedy and the malevolence. You have to feed the one that wants to solve problems. Or with me, with my body and my mind, that's the only way I've been able to stay balanced. So the first constraint is exactly what you just said. But then it gets even worse. but probably help you with, and that benefits them at the same time.

1:16:22 and that keeps things flowing properly across time. So nihilism is wrong. It's like, get your act together. to take what's coming. To detach yourself in a bit and say, okay, I'm going to set up my life so that it's good for me. human ethic it's not arbitrary it has to do with reciprocity for example it has to do with honesty There's chaos and potential.

1:19:11 or taste it, feel it. Well, is that God uses God order let's say world you bring into being as a consequence of telling the truth, will be a good world. are kind of aware of and it feels good to them to hear. Like it resonates, you feel it. When you're saying this, clean your room, you know, put your house in order. That's way better because you've got 60 years to turn into who you could be.

1:21:51 But having confidence is a big part of... Because their life is chaotic and in disorder and they don't know where they're going and happy about who you are. It's like, well, you should feel good about yourself. that because it's not good, but you can do something about it. You can genuinely do something And that's the principle upon which you should predicate your behavior. And I think that one of

1:24:34 are trying to make things better. That's the goal. Let's see if we can have a conversation Well, maybe we first get you to speak in front of one person and and then three people, you know, for five minutes, and then for ten minutes. It's like, go out there, find the dragon, confront it. People recognizing that they're not doing that in their own lives and they get upset and instead of looking internally

1:27:02 There's a couple of reasons for that. So I've done this a couple of times with classrooms full of students. I'm not saying you're wasting 10 hours a day. a day. It's 42 hours a week. So let's call that a work week, 40 hours a week. So that's a work week. how much better would your life be if you weren't wasting $100,000 a year? It's like, You know, and I've had lots of people come to my clinical practice who were chronic procrastinators.

1:29:57 It's like, so it's painful. And maybe there's a part of me that's bitter because I haven't got everything already. It's frustrating. Yeah, well, with the... So you're right. Especially the behaviors. phone. It's like, okay, well, how much? 15 minutes? Half an hour? How much is real studying? Well, It's like, okay, that's better. That's the goal. What do you want for your career?

1:33:09 you can have whatever you want. bitterness and all of that, your procrastination gets completely out of hand, and you auger down, It's like, yeah, but, you know, I'd like to drink half a bottle of whiskey tonight, too. real place whether it's eternal that's a whole different question whether it's waiting for you This is another concept that doesn't have a voice right now.

1:35:36 own heart. You can actually do something about that, and that's actually way more useful than And you might say, well, you should go out and protest against them. Stop telling lies that you know to be lies. And I think if more people live their life in this sort of a manner, I think we're going It says, don't let your kids do anything that makes you dislike them.

1:37:40 and they're squeezing, but only tight enough to strangle them in 20 years. Because you have to be, because no one will take you seriously otherwise. But isn't there confusion using those terms as a positive and a negative? and rocks out in their understanding of themselves. You think, well, is that monstrous? as being just an awful person And so you need to organize your family

1:40:36 because I've looked at the terrible things that people do to one another. I think you're very serious, and especially about these very complicated issues. of bloodshed becomes vastly enhanced. It's like, well, that always happens when people devolve into tribalism. So when I'm pointing to a particular kind of tribalism, I think it's pretty similar.

1:42:23 He's like, 50% of people get divorced. Yeah, but it's a good point. said that he wasn't one of these people who was capable of inventing something wonderful to make life easier for everyone like so many people were doing you know during the industrial revolution there's a great feeling of accomplishment because it's very difficult to do. You know, it's a genuine.

1:45:11 that drives people like the Columbine High School killers, because I understand that rationale. It's the wrong way of going about it. And it isn't some happy little place where someone's feeding you peeled grapes. who had a vision for retirement. I said, well, what's your vision for retirement? Well, Okay, so you're going to do that for six months?

1:47:08 So how long can you have a margarita on a beach? but it's it's like this 16 year old fantasy of paradise it's like well and it just doesn't work And it's been very fun talking to, Like if you aren't everything you could be, more people will die. It's like your family is more messed up than it could be if you were less messed up than you are. well, there's 7 billion of us, and each of us is just this separate dust moat,

1:49:47 And so when you do something that you shouldn't do it's worse than you think It's organized. in the household notice. Well, the first thing they do is get pissed off. It's like, who do you rapidly that A, that's way more difficult than it sounds, and B, that the consequences of it are far And you'll fix yourself up simultaneously It is worth trying.

1:52:10 Like another client I worked with was having a hard time putting his kid to bed at night. you blame it on the kid because he's the proximal cause it's like that's pretty damn ugly and then life is how you treat each other over the breakfast table, because that's an hour and a half or an two years ago, and now you have become, I mean, for lack of a better term, you're an online

1:54:48 other outside of university yeah yeah i had a little bit of you know a little bit of exposure I'm numb. It's exactly the same thing. i wasn't going to use those words under legal compulsion period no matter what and actually who knew what that power was, Carl Jung in particular. Like, that's a big deal, you know? and then there was what happened with Channel 4 in the UK, and it's like, I don't know what to make of it. I don't,

1:58:29 Well, and it's been high stakes poker. I believe that people's decisions tilt the world towards heaven or hell. And every decision you make you're And they suffer because people hurt them. Yeah, yeah worse than that they want to obliterate the game There's more potential. No, we're not. fully formed and you get to decide how it's going to form and you can make it better and so my

2:02:04 Aim at heaven. degenerate into hell Is any of this all all the pressure and the scandal every three weeks is this? I mean, the thing that I've, I shouldn't say this, but I'm going to because it's just so goddamn funny. It's just, every time I think that, well, it's just one of the surreal circumstances that characterize my life. So they go protest me.

2:04:31 It's free. And I thought, well, I could increase the production quality of my online videos. And so my son came over that day, and I said, Jesus, Julian, you know, like 200 people at the faculty at the University of Toronto petitioned like, they didn't take it seriously at all, How could they possibly be against you based on that? It's mass hysteria.

2:07:09 that's going against Lindsay Shepard in that meeting. I've read a lot of crazy things about you. And knowing you personally, seeing this stuff, I'm like, this is a fascinating time. The best way to describe it is surreal. It's like I stepped outside myself. Yeah. Well, and I think that is part of it, too, is that, like, I happened to catch a technological wave.

2:08:38 Yeah. but we're basically, and I outlined this, And I can come in here and talk to you about what's going on, because that was another thing that was so strange, Joe. It's like, imagine I walked into a venture capitalist organization. I went ahead with it. And so I'm going to do Exodus soon because I want to do that. It's like, my lectures are more like, well, I don't know what's right.

2:11:29 That's really the beginning of the story. and then a bunch of guys who want to they are, ignorant superstition to May of 2016. on my worst enemy. Do you think this is because of stress? Don't know exactly what it is. I don't know what it is i don't know what it is have you my daughter it manifests yes that's what's fixed what what fixed it oh all i eat is meat and greens that's

2:13:35 It was awful. cold turkey and like suffered through the withdrawal for two months and compared to what But she figured out at one point that it was associated with diet and thing which was just bloody amazing yeah it was unbelievable it was unbelievable i couldn't So that disappeared in a week. have had gum disease for 30 years that went away that went away that's amazing

2:16:36 So, but, but whatever, like I'm down to the same weight I was when I was 25. That's gone. I can eat meat and greens, man. Well, I think for far more people than we know, I think people are carbohydrate poisoning It's not true. They were part and parcel of the organization that had produced the food pyramid. Like mad. the reason is is that they're poisoning themselves with carbohydrates. That's insane. It is. But, you know, and the reason is, as far as I can tell, the reason is that they're poisoning themselves with carbohydrates.

2:18:50 And then Weight Watchers has adjusted. Fats. she's in pretty damn good shape. She just had a baby like five months ago. So that was amazing too. I would hit a nap. That's not exactly true. When I've been zooming around, I take like two minute naps when I'm in Because of all this? the same semester and that enabled me to concentrate on my research for the rest of the

2:21:17 means you have to approach things differently. Those same 300 people will also have access to the 150,000. I would rather lecture about new things. the same line. Brett Weinstein, not Steen. I make that mistake often. Sorry, Brett. But same thing. Brilliant guy, restricted by his university, big scandal, leaves. millions, who just want to learn. It's like i'm an educator i'll talk to people who want to

2:23:35 Was there controversial moments in your career before that? scientist. I'm a careful thinker. I think things all the way through to the bottom and I'm really I did that over and over and over. no matter what I did. to do was to see where it was wrong. And I can't get underneath it. I can't break it. We've divided into two armed tribal camps, and we've decided that settling the difference between us is worth risking being itself.

2:26:46 about it so it would stop it wasn't even that I wanted and so at the end of the year, 80% of them would say Rogan. And people say that all the time. You bet.