Joe Rogan Experience #1107 — Sam Harris & Maajid Nawaz Transcript

Transcript

0:00 four three two one boom and we're live gentlemen Sam Majid how are you good thanks pleasure to i can't blurb the book we wrote together, unfortunately. Yeah. What did they do? polarization in our times in how irrational this conversation around extremism, Islam integration, Muslims in list they have on their World Check database. Maja, I think taking legal action

3:14 They've removed the entire list that's been up there for two years. Is there anything that they write reason why we can prove malice because what has that got to do with anything that but that doesn't Yeah, it's ridiculous. I mean this was the flagship organization that was suing the KKK and sovereign citizens and just the far right white nationalist, Christian nationalist movements in the U.S.

6:42 And so it is with Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I definitely want to talk about that. I've grown up fighting neo-Nazis on the streets and they've been attacking me with hammers and machetes because of the color of my skin. but you know even within that a community identification would impact you in a way for of course ideology had a lot And their method of coming to power

9:54 very serious and intent on bringing about. And now people, when I say that, believe me, I spent a year in Pakistan, went back while studying for my degree in the University of London. The security climate changed all over the world, something we didn't know about nor predicted. So did Amnesty International get you out at all? blair was prime minister and we were in the thick of the war on terror we were in the middle of it

13:16 I'm 40 now, right? and discussing with pretty much the founders of Egypt's main jihadist organizations who were in longer extremists. And they were no longer what I call Islamists, people that sought to implement I had to leave the organization because I no longer believed in an ideology that I was once prepared to die for. That is fascinating that the shift came about in jail speaking with assassins.

15:59 But that's not normal. In most cases, when you torture people in jail, it ends up hardening and ossifying that ideology and people become as angry as, you know, they become the monster that they were seeking to defeat. community-based response, a Muslim response to this growing problem of extremism. And this was And that brings me to your story with Charles Murray and Vox and Ezra Klein.

18:05 The CEO, something Cohen, I think. It's the tribe. And so it's like they'll sacrifice any number of individuals to make the political who bear very little resemblance to you ideologically because there are probably a few people on but probably, you know, I can probably count getting it, answering it in one way and then still being consumed by the topic, answering it in a

21:10 So to have a bunch of people come along of being able to claim that I have stood for my community, it seems to me, it's almost insane, but it seems to me to be prevalent. as facts. They're intrinsically political. They intrinsically convey power disparities. Those are the ones where there's a wall. I mean, people think it's racist to criticize Islam

24:19 We're talking about 1.7 billion people. So there was a lot of this stuff, this paranoia, But I had to pick a side. I didn't know who he was. and there may be 70 people in I'd like to hear what he has to say about the debate. And so I said, Majid, I remember this more or less verbatim, because And the extra line here was, and can you just be honest with us in the privacy of this room?

28:47 everyone on the table kind of went quiet and uh and i didn't know who this guy was i'd i'd never the substance of their ideas that I think in the climate we're in today they're engaging with people Are you willing to have a conversation with me? Published by Harvard University Press. But therein lies this lesson to your question. That can happen. their struggles with social media, with like, detaching from it, reattaching from it, getting

32:27 So I was not tweeting that much. I mean, it was just, it was like the perfect infomercial you know, we're on Hawaii and just like, I'm supposed to put everything down to be the best Well, the truth is I can't even see what – I didn't look at what Greenwald had done. about IQ and success in Western societies like our own. talked about the disparities in

35:43 the standards of today, But that went off like a nuclear bomb. Yeah, so that's what happened. Asians are actually the ones with- Yes. Yes, exactly. and that you must first concentrate on all the various injustices that have been done to those people who have this lower IQ. She was attacked. And they're driving out in an SUV where that gets, I mean, someone pulls a stop sign

40:02 uh and then i saw this and i thought well, maybe he's the canary in But I see what's coming. across groups. It can't be because we know that there are people walking around like, debate scientific fact and the results of psychometric testing or behavioral genetics that are relevant to this question of intelligence. And we can have a good faith debate about the data.

44:18 would be derived a policy that would reflect those facts in other words in their minds they should follow from that. I freely agree with you on that, but I don't think that's necessarily exactly what they're saying. so guilty that any discussion whatsoever about race can't be held unless you repeatedly bring This is not an advocacy for white supremacy.

46:04 of facts is when uncomfortable This is what I would worry about. And look at Charles Murray and what he's gone through. Yeah. And, you know, frankly, I didn't get a great answer from him. And so therefore, any different representation at the higher echelons of success and achievement and power in our society, if there's 13% African Americans in the U.S., if you look at the top doctors in hospitals or the top academics or the Oscar winners or wherever you want to look for achievement,

49:42 you know, kids in schools or somewhere along the way, or kind of a selection Now, if it's just the case, for whatever reason, that there are not many candidates, likely less than 13% for that field, or to take the James DeBoer memo at Google, right? No doubt misogyny and sexism still exists. is that people have taken your summaries of other people's stances

53:04 This is like a very isolated, beleaguered community. without being panicked that we'll find stuff that just blows everything up. But on the left, the only reason why it wouldn't be even across the board with all other races that describe mathematical aptitude how many people do you have at the 99.999 percentile of aptitude in math, say, an extreme outlier and this was like

57:22 like 99.9%. there was some resistance to this notion. And of course, the questions that arise, is someone should be legally able to identify as a woman, portray themselves as a woman. Absolutely. And if you're telling me that a guy There's a difference in the shape of the hips, the size of the shoulder, the density of the But people came down on me harder than anything that I've ever stood up for in my life.

1:00:16 man for 30 years she goes no she's always been a woman i go even when she had sex with a woman And this is the ideological sport. Beat the fuck out of the other person in front of you. athletes are overwhelmingly dominant. She's got size 14 feet. They're saying, hold on, what you're doing in this way is actually, we fought so hard and so long for these female spaces where we have a space of our own.

1:02:57 When they speak to actual board-certified endocrinologists, some of them only do it off record. There's so many problems with this. bed with WADA, the World Anti-Doping Agency, It is inherently corrupt from the top down. Looked like when this person was fighting women. It was there was a massive physical advantage massive and not a skill advantage behind this and the science behind it

1:05:13 That's the other thing. because she's on steroids. She was born a woman, right? born a girl you have to compete as a girl so when he competes everybody booze it's awful it's fucking awful i mean it's it's Especially in jiu-jitsu in particular because it's such a technique-based art. So in that Texas case, they clearly have it wrong. not opposed to a woman fighting a man if she so chooses like I'm not opposed to

1:07:58 Yeah. And the loophole was testosterone therapy. therapy and they were allowing testosterone replacement therapy for male athletes that were either older or it was a symptom of having pituitary gland damage, which comes from head Well, to bring this full circle back to me sitting at the pool about to destroy my vacation on Twitter. there was another couple

1:09:41 it's actually not... the cloud wouldn't have left. this had been like a year previously. because we by email as you said Yeah, no, I mean, I've read Vox with pleasure as well. I don't have to write anything. this thing that has hit is now on the hate watch page of SPLC, It was just – it was totally counterproductive because it was – dealing with in the email exchange. And he was fundamentally unresponsive to any of my points.

1:14:55 let me tell you why that's not relevant to my concerns and what happened here with Murray. Whereas I'm often finding myself in conversation with people who don't have to care about those He's on his podcast. Until this day, I don't even know who this bloke is, who this guy this day very easy for me to um to play the tune um of the islamist and score those points

1:17:15 I think it's called Merry Christmas, Mr. Islamist. I've sent to dozens and jihadists addressing a crowd I mean, the whole thing is, this islam or is this radical islam talking of talking of And then a year later, which is now last year, another poll was conducted. Unfortunately, in my dialogue with Sam, we talk about this, that there are the Islamists who want

1:20:16 especially in Europe, So this is what led you that are seeking to challenge these sorts, to try and empower those Muslim voices that are seeking And yet if we were to challenge what I call the Quran belt in Europe, that I think were erroneously called and that should tell you something that we've got the worst terrorist group educated i mean the football team in the the this context is a candidate for recruitment well think think of it

1:24:15 his family on social costs they gave him social housing they educated him he graduated from yeah so as i'm looking at you now imagine she's the interviewer and and and she's asking me And a lot of these concerns are plausible, but because only the far right and a few other a conversation. And I told her, I go, did you listen to it? and I was going to shut up and it was a

1:27:46 is essentially a californian invention right um and we're in the home state of where most of this He's the former leader of the British English Defense League, as was Milo Yiannopoulos. Now, the point being that still till this day and before people misquote me and completely say that I'm now defending hate speech and and it's and their right to speak with hateful views on Twitter.

1:29:33 This is the digital blind spot that the dude sitting in California in wherever who is monitoring this stuff. And it's probably more than one person. or Milo Yiannopoulos effort to study brown people's ideas that you're unfamiliar with and recognize here's a terrorist even if it's stupid, And so imagine that and the way you're able to rally a mob in Pakistan on blasphemy as an example

1:31:54 is they don't have to respond or give you any reasons. How does someone avoid violating your guidelines? None. Zero. They don't have to. They've got the right to choose whatever policy. You can get ideas out so quickly. Like when you see him on television talking about it, like under Sam Harris, like Sam Harris is at the movies. and then it became uh sharing links

1:35:05 YouTube is just a cesspool, right? So even if they're for you, the comments are horrible. It was amazing. my wife, Rachel would be very happy with that. it's interesting because I took a stance in making sure that red line was maintained, And I fully acknowledged that when I took the stance. And I have this screen grab of the reaction. Nazi symbol on his profile

1:37:45 is because I'm supporting ISIS against the Assad regime. is that on your, I don't know if that captures that, but they're arguing with each other over whether i'm in their his It's kind of horseshoes. So someone could say, no, he's far right, And therefore, I'm going to reduce his opinion to the worst possible interpretation that he could possibly mean and then use that against him or i could

1:40:03 secular democratic values and so it's actually plaguing our conversations today if only we were able to strip away our There's never been a time where it's so easy to distribute information in human history. It's really crazy, but I don't think we know what we've democratized truth. And when you democratize truth in that way, the earlier thing you mentioned

1:42:20 happened with the advent and worse still you could, you're expressing that opinion as a person of color, And so the problem with that that ted talk today i did it at ted uh global if i were to pitch that TED Talk today, I did it at TED Global. tech companies were like the good guys that these companies weren't actually companies that they Presumably they still have it.

1:44:47 I think he was, after we wound up having a fight at dinner over it, I think he was somewhat The whole idea behind being progressive, like nonviolence, was a genuine aspect of that. And nonviolence, sure, It offends your sensibilities as an MMA guy. Like, the average high school kid could fuck you guys up. Joe, they're a bunch of cowards. There's a guy who went to my old university. I graduated from

1:46:54 wanted to cross the strike lines By the way, oh, and she was also Muslim. for wanting to teach my class. What is the picture of – how do you conceive of your job at the moment and what is the picture of, I mean, how do you conceive of your job at the moment? I mean, which is my autobiography has a U S publication, They have some really good people, but I know them all.

1:49:23 My book eventually got published um what al-qaeda did while the whole world was focused on ISIS, before that they were seen as a terrorist group that was like a you know just like a vanguard what remains of ISIS will probably rejoin politics between the remnants of isa isis and Yeah, he's Egyptian. the looks. So if the guys You're not our Amir, and the bin Laden family, and they remember what they

1:52:47 with this ideology. And it's why it's so Al-Qaeda inspiredinspired extremism. a caliphate espousing organization that believes in their ideal caliphate that gay should be killed They would honestly say bin Laden doesn't support Al-Qaeda. They're not jihadists. They would honestly say, So that like in the same sentence that you have to worry about the caliphate, you have to talk about abortion doctors being killed in the US once every 15 years.

1:55:10 but, doing here is is actually attributing precisely specifically what the ideology is and believes in And so we have to acknowledge that Islam has a role to play. But I really appreciate you guys coming on. we're gonna because I think it's okay Thank you.