Joe Rogan Experience #1108 — Peter Attia Transcript

Transcript

0:00 4, 3, 2, 1. And you're the only human to ever do that. How long you got? not, you typically swim to point point Vicente and she had done it in like seven hours and 20 Yeah, I can't hold a cadence of that for 100 yards. I think marathon swimming might be one sport where, if you just look at the numbers, I Right, right, right. you're not allowed any wetsuits or aids of any sort.

3:16 We drag our hips through the water. is about as good as it gets but you can't touch the boat or the kayak or it's an immediate You know, it was hard, but I was like, okay, that's the proof of concept. Like if you're going 650 miles an hour in an airplane, you don't actually feel it. That's a darkness you can't imagine. Which is incredible. I mean, that's worth the price of admission.

7:08 I did all my training in a swimming pool and a lake on the East Coast. go on to do many more of these swims. But what I learned is the importance of spitting the water And you're not even halfway there and it's like you don't know if you can do it and blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's a small thing. Right. No, but you take a shower every day and it's like a big deal when you do it in that setting or, or think about the meal you've had, if you've been in a

9:17 And then you, you know, you go through all the channels to do it. So round trip is 20. just the there and back, I ended up swimming for 12 hours because on the first way crossing where there was no wind, it took me four hours. Maybe two knots. Because then the training just got so, I just, you got to live in the water if you want to do this sport. just before I swam the Maui thing. Now that I think about it, that was 10 years ago. I swam

12:49 attacked by great whites, they have a very, they always attack the same way, which is below and How did they get him out of the water? And so you're just thinking, is this the day? Yeah, yeah, we're a joke. the top four channel Islands. So we did this November swim. It was a nighttime thing again, I'm thinking to myself, all right, you got to make a judgment call here. If that's really a great

16:28 And all you can do is talk to the fishermen. Yeah, they want seals, right? disturbs the shit out of the sharks. The shark's nose is an organ that It's called the shark bands. So the tail was a problem because of the drag? Can I get some numbers, please? It's going to come to me like in an hour. He's like, I'm telling you, man, the shark fishing off Catalina Island is fucking insane.

19:43 The backside is way more aggressive than the front side. I mean, I was like, what in the fuck? I'd swum to it. Yeah. So apparently there was a movie that was made there back in the twenties or something And they put them on this island. I think they brought in stags and a bunch of weird exotic shit and they put them on this island. I think they even

21:19 leave the bodies. At least say make it open season for hunting or something like that. And probably, I mean, if you've got a thousand pound elk, it's not supposed to be on a fucking island. You're not allowed to? I was like, hey, is there any way we can – because you officially have to start a swim. is that's real shark territory And, yeah, you're looking at like thousand pound elephant seals that are just like licking their chops, looking at you trying to get in the water.

23:59 Yeah, and I didn't think that seals ever did something like that before. Look at this. Oh, my God. Oh, yeah, yeah. They're probably used to scooping things up. Yeah. They don't allow hunting for mountain goats on the weekends Lives out in the fucking woods. And it's just – And my daughter opened up a package of Oreos and the monkey just jumped onto this little ledge like a couple feet away from her.

27:35 It pops open the Oreo and starts chewing on the frosting like a little kid. The good stuff's the middle. I think if it was just pure middle, it would be pretty gross. It's the sunk cost. Yeah. Like, it gets into the areas where it gets cold. It came and sat. It was a total pet. I mean, after seeing this, I was just like, I don't think I can hunt that.

30:22 Yeah. Is that what it is? yeah i had one kill chickens just a few weeks ago. There's a six-foot fence. It's crazy. We need them to kill the rabbits and the rats. They're the only animal that's in every single state and every single city now. What's this? They have a real problem with them in Chicago. You know, they were able to eradicate wolves and then they would eat the wolf, or eat the horse, rather, and die.

34:18 and they extend their range when you persecute them they just extend their range it's they're roof dude what do you mean what's going on over there they're literally chewing the shingles off a lot of coyotes, and occasionally It's fucking old. He's a bobcat. That look is fuck you. Yeah, yeah. experience Jocko. That was basically what it was like a ride. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I met Jocko.

37:15 else. It will be worth it. And I, luckily I had enough credit in the bank with Tim. I've done, And then I and Tim convinced Jocko to do his own podcast. off the graph yeah I met him a long time ago when he was training with Dean Lister. I guess I can tell this story in public. But somehow we were just talking about like how good is a sniper? But Chris took it to another level.

40:22 not move and put your eye up against had a different gear. And, um, it was just an was just an amazing i mean i mean those are some of my favorite moments with jaco is when It's a crazy distance. Some people are way better at that. Pull, pull, pull, pull, pull, bang. he goes whoa look at that trigger control like because it was he put the way he pulled it right

43:27 Where do I get a bow? A rifle, we get into There's something about archery where even if I'm not having a good day, like maybe it's an extension of what you're talking about with the trigger finger. almost like a meditation. Like if you re like, I'm talking in the way that Sam Harris would talk You can be pretty fucking accurate. i mean the thousands of years that people threw arrows and fucking – what is that thing called?

46:55 Yeah, yeah. It doesn't make any sense. yes. even the sound. They give the animal the heads up. It's better than the honey. Yeah, so there's no anticipation. I have tried to explain this to people who don't know what I'm talking about. I use a Carter too. Yep. right? No, no, no. Uh, he took, I mean, probably he only took one shot in like the whole five day trip and

50:45 I don't remember what it was, like all my practice either running on the ground I'll have to ask him. A big bird in North America. I was in Toronto three weeks ago, which is where I'm from, and though I don't go often, and we were, And my brother's like, get moving. Let's just keep walking. What is that called? It's crazy. He's really good at it. He's a ninja.

53:35 never been i've only been bird hunting twice i went once uh with anthony bourdain uh for his tv when I, I like It just tastes better. because it's just the schedule is such that, you know, I'm seeing patients in the morning and then i'm feeding within a two hour window wow when i'm here um it's about this well i mean Dude, you got to get in touch with your evolutionary self.

56:01 It's probably beneficial. a little bit better. crazy shit for 10 years, nutritional-wise. But, you know, for example, a 16- hour fast in a mouse produces unbelievable results. If you take a group So, um, we have to be careful though when we extrapolate that because you and I have a eat right now. If I'm sitting on the airplane and they're serving dog shit, I don't have to eat.

59:20 Eat bread, eat pasta. Because it's just not what you need. And everybody does it. It's like. And this is- Wait, wait. And what were you eating? And just that concept, people, that sounds like horseshit. You change the way you feel. bowl of, like a box of cereal. So I'd take like one of these Tupperware bowls that was this big probably four and a half percent body fat and I was eating anything and everything you could put

1:04:32 lipase on muscle cells and not much on fat cells to the reverse. So when I was 16 and invincible, Back then, I don't think I did that much back in the day, which would also speak to the idea of better fuel partitioning. what do you think the benefits are other than your energy and slight spikes in norepinephrine So just to take a step back, I am only aware of three things that have universally extended lifespan across all model organisms.

1:08:17 really shitty diet and it did not extend lifespan if you had a really good diet. strains of mice that also don't seem to be enhanced in terms of lifespan, meaning just And rapamycin inhibits that. Now, it's a bit complicated because there's two variants of it. the day when I can start taking it and ultimately feel that it's safe enough that I could give

1:10:56 of their lab, coupled with a guy named Matt Kaberlin at the University of Washington, so you own a dog, you know this, right? If you worked out as hard as we could at peak, we might get that up to 80, 85% ejection fraction. assume would portend longevity. So Matt's work focusing on the ejection fraction, patients. Now you could give them much less prednisone and you could give them rapamycin or

1:14:33 this could also extend life. And therein you had this paradox, which was, wait a minute, They did this for something like eight to 12 weeks, and then they washed out, meaning they They're brutal. I used to get them all the time just from, I think, sleep deprivation or any, swear it's lidocaine. They're like, dude, we're going to tune to help, you know,

1:17:17 It's a guy named William Stuart Halstead who was so near and dear to my heart because he was the original. Like, gag him, get him drunk, gag him, and like, we're going to do our thing. So you have this entire generation of surgeons at Hopkins from that early era that were completely coke addicted. Did you know that they still use coca leaves for flavor in Coca-Cola?

1:19:50 No, no. But the leaf itself, like, if you just don't extract it, it's actually really good for you. So in the case of fruit, like how quickly does fructose hit your liver? Or you could just drink a giant gallon of orange juice every day. Yeah, you're juicing. Yeah, your liver would have a hard time Yeah. It might be better. It might get more healthy choice. Oh. Well, it's a glass of sugar. Have a Mountain Dew. Yeah.

1:21:48 That's right. You got all the benefit of 20 more benefit than one and the fewest side effects. So the drug was approved in 99 by the FDA, why it probably spun into this other company, RestoreBio, to sort of combine it with other function of where you start. So there is one doctor in New York who has like a rapamycin practice. way to measure that, but we do know how to measure it. I mean, when I was doing my postdoc, it was in

1:24:40 It is. see an uptick in autophagy. And so just as if you- What does that mean? Autophagy is this process And then we selectively, when we refeed, repopulate the better cells. And in many ways, Prize was awarded for. But what I'm hoping is that we can develop a signature for autophagy IRB. So we're working on getting an N of one IRB so that we can take muscle biopsies, fat biopsies

1:27:54 you'll notice glucose, like insulin resistance in the muscles of the legs. like plyometrics like you're pushing your entire weight up and then you're catching with the other Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's probably part of it, right? So you do. great podcast with Ryan Flaherty on. And he's, I call him the guru of speed. This is a guy who His biggest observation was the following.

1:31:20 the longer you travel with each stride. In other words, like, okay, if Joe runs a 4.940 and we want to get that down to a 4.5, can that be done? you're doing these at. And it's up, drop, up, drop, up, drop. So you're never getting which was he kind of came up, this was for me and two other guys who were very good cyclists. but you can. Absolutely, yeah. Huh. Wow.

1:34:53 after just 12 weeks of doing this. you're resisting the movement. See if you can find that, Jamie. It's like an eccentric, Eccentric exercise bike? It's for little kids. that do it. Would you throw things? Well, we were talking about like, you primarily going to be quads, hams, glutes have to be the muscles that do it. who Meb is, the American marathoner who won the Boston Marathon three years ago?

1:38:14 all right, Meb, if you want to win the Boston marathon, you need to be able to travel like four inches further with every step you take, taking the same number of steps at the same Like, you know, he just takes off and, like, leaves everybody behind him, Would you say he hit, or something along those lines. Don't worry, peak at the right time, you need the right

1:40:05 hours and two minutes. It's staggering. I don't think people understand like what, uh, I mean, Well, I know Meb personally. That's basically all they come down to. Yeah. along. So Lance won, I think his first one in 99. The guy who won before that in 98 was Marco So, you know, but I think, and again, I, I've It's the hydrogen ion that accompanies the lactate.

1:45:09 he won a gold and a silver medal in the Sydney Olympics and retired from swimming in 2004, two minutes later, not two minutes later, maybe seven minutes later, jumped on the blocks and he would rarely have a lactate above 8.0, including when he's breaking world records. right? Once you start genetically doing it, if you could, does it become cheating in the same

1:47:30 Well, and frankly, it's more my argument. I've heard that it's healthier to do the Tour de France on steroids than it is to do it off steroids. if we think there's anything physiologically reasonable about that, we're out to fucking Well, you see it in their faces too. Those guys, like when they retire, they look like they're 10 Wouldn't they? If you're a person who naturally lives at 43, you going from 43 to 50, you get a much bigger advantage. To which I say,

1:51:14 take steroids, you will have, you know, you will hit that many, you know, home runs or you will all the difference from a performance standpoint. Yeah. He probably would have done a little bit better, but it's not because the drugs were in him per se. It's because the drugs that to do this like a broader discussion, I'm saying like, why would, why do, let's just say I'm not a professional athlete.

1:53:07 big part of it was I just realized that performance and longevity stopped being co-linear. They condition called atrial fibrillation, which yeah, many people have it, but not young. You're not fraction load, you're basically stretching out the electrical system because the electrical system of the heart runs within its muscles. Whoa. I've heard it many times.

1:56:03 that's probably directionally true within a mile. Now, when you're talking about human longevity and you, you know, And to be clear, the only difference between a drug and a supplement is one's regulated and one is not. has their foot up the ass of the company making it to make sure it's perfect. That just strikes valid. Um, some of the stuff that I find even more interesting is actually a lot less sexy

1:58:45 My parents are both from Egypt. but I also measure something called parathyroid hormone that allows me to further titrate that You know, you have what I call kind of the medicine 1.0 world, which was, I define that as everything squirrel is going to find nuts sometimes. And then we basically threw, you know, following the HIV. That's almost hard to fathom when you consider how shitty we are at addressing other

2:01:51 You know, when you study rhesus monkeys for 20 years, it's certainly more interesting than studying mice for one year. more data. Is that still the right thing to do? And so that strategy to me is sort of fundamentally And then if you look at one thing at a time and say, hey, vitamin D, yay or nay, antioxidant, yay or nay. as this practice grows and, or, you know, whatever, I have the revenue to justify it. Like I'll have 10 analysts one day in this practice. And even that's not enough. I mean, as this practice grows and or, you know, whatever, I have the revenue to justify it.

2:04:20 It's pretty stunning when you think about the amount of human achievement that we've experienced just in our lifetime in that regard. meaning for the remainder of time, I mean that's probably possible but I would bet it is much, much more the former than the latter. Even that's crazy. Like, well, we subscribe to a whole bunch of services that basically pre-filter a bunch of shit for us.

2:06:56 the right direction. So what we mostly do is create programs where we're going out and looking Because I can certainly make a teleologic argument for why growth hormone could be helpful. But then one of my analysts, Bob Kaplan, pointed out to me a year ago. I mean, I could draw it actually for you. Not that anyone will necessarily see this, but at least you'll see what I'm

2:09:36 Well, that's when it gets really interesting. So cancer's curve looks like this. to me, when I saw this graph, which Bob put together, and under what situations should it be considered versus not. talking about older people that take it. Like I was looking at one of those ads, you know, And my friend was like, God, that can't be healthy. teenage, 20 year old, 21.

2:12:27 If that's not healthy, like, oh, he's going to die of cancer. I had a 10-year window on that. right? No, no, no no i can't because But the more interesting question is this one, which is, so what year were you born? And let's just say for shits and giggles, expectancy in the year of birth. My hypothesis is that is always a positive number. What I want to

2:15:21 Like, what would you take right now? So, you know, the reduction of infant mortality was huge. And then the third one was basically germ theory. By doing all this incremental little shit. On some level, yeah. as the 30 yearyear-old me. How you feel, your blood levels. I mean, and so I've – but yet I've seen a lot of patients where you take the carbs out of their diet, doesn't matter.

2:19:22 feel good, even when I knew it would take a long time to see the results. So he's probably 5'8", weighs 235 at the start. So 5'8", 235, metabolic syndrome, something completely fucking extreme. And I want to try it for six months. Every five days... itself. And so you'll be all right. And I'm giving you a grossly oversimplified version of what we makes in response to how much fat is accumulating, you know, normal is like less than 40. He was like

2:21:53 He wasn't a junkie guy. I'm sure there's got to be someone on this show who's talked about it. Yeah. I would like to know if he had stretch marks when it shrank, you know? Certainly if you eat enough shit, that can happen. He's been to Stanford. presenting like he had Lou Gehrig's disease, which obviously is about as bad a fate as you can have. In other words, there's understanding what's causing this and then managing the symptoms around it.

2:25:59 And I want to just figure out what's going on with your four hormone systems. But that's – to me, that's the interesting question too, right? First of all, he might be like, I mean, I have friends that are pretty overweight I got to tell you, I know we love to beat up on fat people. We love to turn it into a character like if you had pancakes, bacon, and scrambled eggs, that would be like a really good mix of,

2:28:59 go back and get fat. In other words, break down fat at lower ATP demands than necessarily always going But like if I ever get stuck doing weight loss, like I'm doing the wrong thing for my interest. that that doesn't fix you metabolically. So if you want fewer, if you want to be less fat, you have fat out of it than enters it. And so how do you manipulate those? Well, insulin seems to be the most important of the five

2:32:08 insulin to regulate the uptick of ketones. But if you or I did this because we have a normal they're doing and they're doing everything right, but they just can't lose weight. But then you right? Yes. Again, hormones are what's driving fuel partitioning. down to throw down, it's probably 3000 calories. That's a lot in one meal, huh? Yeah. Although Like I don't – like those things are not things that I can abuse.

2:35:38 I completely understand what these people are going through, So I can still, like, look like a super healthy dude, a super lean dude, even if I'm not. So a lot of times we'll see when people either turn to sugar or salt in times of fatigue, a lot of times it can be, you know, they don't have the I think for me, if I'm really going to be brutally honest about it, I think it's that I like – I sometimes just want to punish myself.

2:37:45 thing is i just i really i don't know why i just like shitty food like i like macaroni and cheese fucking sandwich it's like I'm and then I would have probably made a sandwich. than my head. Um, so I always refer to that as a manly bowl. That's the definition of a manly bowl. bland salad in that sense, but I mean, I can eat that all day, every day. And then it's a serving of protein. And I usually cycle through salmon, pork, steak, you know, some gamey meat, like

2:40:19 this Bob, who's actually one of my, my head analyst, he lives in Boston. He came down to We're good. because like when I go back to my apartment, I will rarely have another bite. Like in my office, like I share my office in New York, Of course. bakeries up there but but yeah there's like some ridiculous shit that shows up and every once in a It's less that.

2:43:04 It's in Brooklyn? Yeah,ie fan at all? Yeah. Oh, dude. It's there until mid-June or July. It's in Brooklyn? Unbelievable. whatever you stand near, you get the music associated with that plus or minus a narrative as necessary. that's probably about the sweet spot. So if I were to ride at like eight in the morning and then not You've got your medical practice.

2:45:29 And so in many ways, like when you combine medicine with engineering, with risk management, in my backyard. Like in the end, I think what I really just obsess over is trying to get better uh 2013 i think is right when i got pretty serious about it you had john dudley on your show once I had coffee. He did it with a lighted knock. And he's helped me tremendously.

2:48:34 my bow like i just sort of you know went into the arch like performance archery in san diego's like But he gets so geeky and technical in his descriptions and really no other way and with archery specifically it's so satisfying like as we were saying before their elbows up here instead of way back here. Yeah. You know? Um, I, I think that's an interesting

2:50:51 And you cannot, in a car, if you start getting pissed, you're done. Listen, Peter, we just did three hours, believe it or not. I don't believe that. It's them. Yeah. That's a big one. Golf. Yeah. Which I don't do, but yeah. Yeah. It really is. A-T-T-I-A.