Joe Rogan Experience #1121 — Michael Pollan Transcript

Transcript

0:00 That quickly? Two? One? Boom, and we're live. Mr. Pollan, how are you? those subjects you're like, oh no, Michael Pollan found drugs. Like, what's he doing? He's having a and we should talk a little bit about how the guided changes things for, you know, it's not, book here. And there's so much, you know, there are two kinds of articles you write as a journalist.

3:23 They weren't around? There you go. Small doses, one gram, something like that. I was just afraid. And so, yeah, and I had heard enough stories about that to stay away. So discovering this kind of later in life, you know, I was certainly not something I planned on or expected. and we have these rehab facilities that are available for people trying to kick opiates

6:20 Right, let's ramp it up slowly. but it isn't for everybody. And I think you're absolutely right. I think that, I felt that way every time. And most bad trips, in my experience, are the result of people resisting what is happening. Surrender, trust and let go. You didn't hear about bad trips. experience alone, you know, on its own without all the cultural hysteria attached to it.

10:11 which is magic mushrooms, DMT, mescaline. They are much less toxic than many of the over-the-counter I know, what a horrible thing, right? Go online and look up the elephant who died from LSD killed it. It may have been the benzos or whatever they were giving it. I know, what a horrible thing, right? We know that if you, Because they really shouldn't be in that situation.

11:31 And basically they thought that this was inevitably what happens. It tells us that environment has a lot to do with drug addiction. And they got back and only 10% had a problem. I had become, for a couple reasons, I had become very curious about the people I was It's also kind of my brand as a writer. the territory with Paul Stamets. The Pacific Northwest?

14:03 It was like this, you know, forlorn December weather. hard i mean i would not recommend do do it yourself with psilocybin just because it's not So weird. Yeah, I know. I know. Picky, picky. Oh my God. So I was a little reluctant to take them, And I had a kind of wonder. And I've always believed intellectually that plants, domesticated plants are acting on us it's it's not just it's

16:49 That idea became flesh. Not just with the dying. they're willing to risk their freedom and their livelihood to work underground. while they're with you getting this trip? the garden thing when you're having this experience with, uh, these plants. I had a You had this weird feeling this contextual weirdness to this situation? and other animals and even plants have another kind of consciousness.

21:36 And there's some other littler ones. We can't. it's probably just been visited by someone else, so skip it. been seeded by another planet it's very controversial but it's from a legit scientist That's crazy. And regenerate as well. And he was telling this interviewer in The Guardian that That there, you know, that space and time are curved, that particles don't exist

26:33 Yeah, I did. You know, people talked about visiting the underworld in Homer's time. And so it seems totally plausible to me that at the very earliest stages of humanity, if people were indeed taking psychedelics, this might explain how they came up with these ideas. says that was a psychedelic potion. We don't know what they were using, whether it was mushrooms or

29:16 Tiny glasses. We don't know. Some people think the Salem witch trials came after a wet year, and thought they were under spells. if you just eat ergot, and they were collaborators to take ergot and make something through simple processes that the Greeks could have mastered. The Greeks spent, some of the great Greek scholars spent a lot of time in Egypt as well.

31:46 They made some connections to DMT that is sort of loosely connected to their worship I mean, this idea that there might be an endogenous psychedelic like DMT, but they don't know whether or not the pineal gland does obviously the pineal gland represents the and they think it might have some sort of a connection between the portal to the afterlife Yeah.

33:56 You just it seems like a foolish venture. And also, you know, there's a kind of embarrassment. I mean, one of the really they didn't feel comfortable. And so they kept it in and you put it in this box saying, under the influence of psilocybin, The most interesting scientific finding of this current generation of research network normally? Well, it's very involved in self-reflection, self-criticism, worry.

38:02 The ego kind of patrols the borders right it's the it's what and lots more information comes in, which can be overwhelming, but also extraordinary. Like, how do you do this and maintain your position as a serious journalist? drugs are teaching it in a scientific context and in an individual context. So just because And here we are. Oh, yeah. it was extremely exciting news that a guy like you were stepping into the fray because you're

43:33 because we don't want to be perceived as foolish or reckless or in some sort of a midlife crisis And we can actually look at this experience in the same way. talking about food and nutrition and I'm going to apply it now to drugs. I don't think that way. I You made me want to do that. psychedelics turns out to be very helpful. And I looked for it. If you compare mental health treatment to any other branch of medicine, oncology, cardiology,

47:43 late 80s, with the introduction of the SSRI antidepressants, It's a weird item to put on the ballot because actually a small minority of people know what psilocybin is. I think if people understand the John Hopkins research and that if you have problems And in fact, those people are screened out of this research very carefully. 20s and your late 20s, I think.

50:18 the same i think the problem is you know it can exacerbate it or it can trigger it or, you know, depending upon, I mean, everyone's biology is different and everyone's, the way they absorb these chemicals is different. We don't have any evidence of someone thrown into a situation of schizophrenia or other serious mental illness as a result of strictly because of a psychedelic experience.

51:31 And for 30 years, nothing happened. context or that no one under a certain age can have it. I mean, it gives you a chance to regulate. And then the mob got interested in it, Which is just bananas, especially DMT with the old Terrence McKenna line. a medical use. So, you know, what I hope happens and what we're on track to see happen is that I think it's two.

54:34 we're going to have another backlash. in the usual right-left way that we're so accustomed to. And that may give it some protection. He goes, yeah, well, I took a really powerful dose of LSD, and it completely alleviated my worries about dying. off the grid sort of life and some eco-friendly house and all solar powered and used a well and And it would give you more access to your unconscious and make you be able to talk about things that you might otherwise feel very defensive about.

57:38 And there's a lot of people that are getting administered pretty high doses of intravenous and intramuscular ketamine for depression, including one of my good friends, Neil Brennan. It's the one they use if you come into the trauma center and you've been shot or you need surgery and they don't have time to check whether you're allergic to any other drugs.

58:59 And this is all legal. I have a friend who has one down there. I think most drugs have been decriminalized in Mexico, It is very strange that our insistence on prohibition is actually funding one of the Did you do it for this? And it can last like 36 hours it's a a kind of occasional irregularity. Yeah, it just happens sometimes. But my cardiologist warned me off of MDMA because it can raise your heart rate. Although I've subsequently learned if you take a

1:02:18 and they had extraordinary stories to tell and I saw my body rising from a funeral pyre on the Ganges And I heard that from many people. So I just, a couple, two psilocybin trips, one guided, one not. It was actually a horrible experience. What was wrong with it so i you know you take like one puff and before you There was no self. it was like before the Big Bang. You remember that? Well, obviously nobody does. But there

1:05:56 I have a body. Really? At the same time. universe. It was white. they felt like they were installed in the firmament as this happy star. What most people do is- turns into, it looks like brown sugar. Oh my God. what I would do is post-trip, I'd hit a tape recorder right when I became conscious again and start talking about the experience. ego trying to retake hold of the situation and even use words in a way that might impress

1:10:00 And liberating? Yeah. No, not the pure version. And that's true in ayahuasca too. You're present present but there's all these entities that are trying to calm you down relax relax I saw what I described as complex geometric patterns that are made out of love and understanding. next one would be. And they kept saying like, look at this, look at this. But the words weren't real

1:12:43 And, you know, it sounds like so banal. And one of the things that but is that right? And I do think that is the therapeutic agent in the people who are healed, that our ego does keep you know, softens those habits and helps you get out of those grooves. And for me, that was That's who we are as we're like, you know, at this age. That's amazing. by adopting this stance that's ironic and cool.

1:16:56 Yeah, I looked at it. That's what I – the genes? The genes. And his insight, he had this profound insight during a psychedelic trip on the roof of his to turn the cameras around. They're on their way to the moon. Show us the earth from space. And he psychedelics introduces into culture, and that changes culture. That image changed culture. His theory is that it coincides with climate change and these lower hominids experimenting with different food

1:20:08 Yes. His brother Dennis is still alive. I mean, I wrote about one in my last book. And no doubt they ate psychedelic mushrooms. attaching it to a concept he was incredibly creative person and, and, that's where his brother comes in. Oh, yeah. He was constantly doing psychedelics. and speech he's ever done available for free. Yeah, it is. 99% of them are stupid and useless, I'll bet.

1:24:21 And the name of your book once again? I'm so happy to hear you say that.