Joe Rogan Experience #1133 — Dennis McKenna Transcript

Transcript

0:00 four three two one and we're live hello dennis hi joe great to see you it's great to be here as But the Institute for Ecotechnics was started in the early 70s. It was actually a theater company called the Theater of All Possibilities. they were kind of nuts, and they were very naive about what they were doing as far as doing Explain that to people who don't know what we're talking about.

2:57 for like two years at a time to see if they could make it work, if they could really have a balanced ecosystem. But the fact is a lot of good science came out of this. And the book is Ethnopharmarmacologic search for psychoactive drugs he is in his 80s, But he was the visionary behind it. they trying to do in the ocean? All kinds of things. them as the chief science officer and when he the time I got there, he was getting a

7:11 They did all these things kind of realizing that this was the theater of all possibilities. they have this ranch in Santa Fe called the Synergia Ranch. And one of the things that's of psychedelics and the people involved. I mean, we're talking about 1981, right? They've done an amazing job. And this book or this set, as you know, you know, bored teenager living in Paonia, Colorado, wishing that I was with my brother

11:36 and which I, you know, it kind of filled in those spaces. Then this book came out and But that's what led me to pursue that career. And so this book has always loomed large in my sort of pantheon. that we don't think of really as psychedelics like kava and aminated muscaria, all of those That's the deal. And this is the first book. they refused to give it to him

15:16 So he's the first person to definitively show that DMT was a psychedelic. He's now 95. He's in great shape. I invited him to the conference, but he said, When this book came along, he said, I have something I'll submit here. So 2017 was the 50th anniversary. And those videos are all up on the web. And then we basically paid for the book by pre-selling, pre-selling it. And a lot of people

18:26 We did a high-resolution scan of the original book and reprinted that one. It's taken 40 years to get back to it. And I think it's important to pursue that work. And I think there's a pervasive sense of despair and a feeling of, what would you call it, spiritual impoverishment or something. They deliver. Psychedelic experiences are pretty irrefutable that something's happening that's titanic. It's just, it's

23:04 But most of us are more skeptical. We need to a certain extent have poisoned the Western mind, you know, and encouraged our separation from nature and basically propagated this idea that we're separated from nature and we own it desperately reaching out to our species. And anybody who watches my podcast or listens to me And we're seeing the consequences of this now.

26:50 because they don't have a base of compassion and recognition of the interrelatedness of all things. and the profound impact that it had on his, at one point, skeptical mind. There are some things about his book I have to say that I'm a little disappointed, but then I also have to say I'm only about a little over halfway through it. Did he talk to you at all?

28:45 Yeah, yeah. Actually, plants are cultivating us. number of people. Pollan's book is going to bring it to the attention of millions. are and that you've kind of put them in these boxes and you've sort of pushed it away and like by erecting these massive structures and cities and that you know we need this this this ground because they have this because they take you out of your reference frame you know or they bring the

33:13 but I talk about how we're living in a hallucination, essentially, Then you can just relax into it and you can appreciate things that are always there. That's only one of them. And that's one of the restrictions of the strictly clinical approach that I chafe against. They are learning tools and teaching tools. He's got a clinical study going on right now where he's recruiting religious professionals, people who

37:18 And like Bob Jesse says very eloquently, we need to find contexts in which we can use psychedelics for the betterment of the well, you know, for the improvement of the well. really is beautifully done you know it is it is a beautiful book on every level, and the people that contributed to the second volume. and they're completely obsessed with this stuff.

39:46 We produced the book. and you work it out. This is a dialogue between you and the plant So the extension of this is that I'm in the process of, I guess, manifesting this idea. We will have a physical structure, yeah, and maybe more than one. we're going to have, it's going to be much more than a retreat center. We're going to have so it's the McKenna Academy of Natural Philosophy.

44:36 is valuable and we embrace that, Richard Wagner Many other things. Many other things. Paranormal, all of these things that people stigmatize as woo-woo and crazy. What are those experiences? and many other people. Mainstream archaeology is not open to this idea. He's definitely gaining ground. But for years, after the initial excitement about psychedelics in the 50s and 60s, the whole thing was suppressed for 40 years.

47:52 It is stunning. Yeah. stupid in that sense. You know, it did bring out these changes. But now we're past that. So He was a pioneer. Yeah, we can grow mushrooms, Terrence was so interesting. this stuff. seventies, Yeah. He did. For the uninitiated. Psychotic Break, Shamanic Initiation, it's kind of an oxymoron, what's typical about an alien encounter? But there are certain

54:39 fascinated by DMT. And we were compelled to go look for this orally active form of DMT, ukuhe, which when we Generic alien encounters usually involve the transfer of special information. People are Now, whether there's any validity to it, I'm not sure. And I've always been very And we wrote The Invisible Landscape in our first book in 75. of the universe and this map was a way to predict the eruption of those things or the

58:47 Right. So, and that's what it was. nerdy 10-year-old in basements across the country, you know, were growing mushrooms and able to do I don't subscribe to that idea. they're part of, you know, they have a position in the well-defined phylogeny that perhaps the ancestors of octopus Yeah, really. But then we probably look like aliens to octopus. Anything you experience is real.

1:03:14 if you're going to postulate that, what you really have to talk about is the origin of tryptophan, You have to say, well, obviously it came from tryptophan. that responds to light. It doesn't seem like it's here. is only two steps from tryptophan enzymatically and cellular metabolism. Tryptophan is universal, around in cells. So you can make the case that, and we know this, DMT is extremely common in nature.

1:07:50 And actually, I would go to the next, I would even claim without evidence, that's never stopped me So the DMT in it, for whatever reason, the way it interacts with the sheep's digestive system, That's probably the thing the leaves and then tripping their balls off, MAO inhibitors. Oh, okay. You know, we used to think that harming was basically it's the MAO inhibitor in ayahuasca, and it doesn't do a whole lot beyond that.

1:10:59 syndrome. It is an inhibitor of this kinase, this regulatory protein called DYRK1, which has got its fingers in lots of different cellular pies. You know, harming has a number of effects, you know, and that's why taking ayahuasca I think initially it was Lewis Lewin who discovered haramine and he called it benisterine. You know, the beta-carboline chemistry of Banisteriopsis didn't really get well-defined until some Chinese scientists, or at least they had a Chinese name, worked on them and discovered haramine, tetrahydroharamine, and harmelene as the main alkaloids.

1:14:40 This was just romantic. Yeah, because everybody wants to talk afterwards. Like, oh my God, did you see the dragon? she was pregnant How real is that, how real is that, how, you know, and people get, I don't know You know, we throw around these terms, these epistemological, metaphysical terms quite carelessly, you know, without really thinking about it.

1:17:59 If not a reflection of your neurochemical brain state. when you're here and present. and then you came back, Right. If it's good information, And this goes back to Terrence's La Charrera psychedelic experience where he had a UFO encounter. And in fact, that is the nature of these phenomena. But what the fuck? who don't know exactly wrote a series of books about being abducted. Yeah. But I sort of had to change my opinion somewhat because he and Jeffrey Kripal, who I do know, is – Jeffrey Kripal is a professor of comparative religion and mythology at Rice University. And his focus initially is sort of on the superhero

1:22:39 I'm not sure I want to appear on the same stage with this guy. The name of the book is Supernatural. I don't think he's lying. scientific stance. I do not understand this phenomenon. So I give him credit for that. And or not, but just the idea of the nobody knows what to make of it, He is like the most drab person you can imagine. Yeah. And then he comes out with this incredible real world story right that reads

1:28:02 to lunch call the men with nets right there's Now, we don't totally understand the dream state, but there's a connection, at least, But then does this contradict what we've already said about psychedelic experiences? Like why would we diminish his endogenous psychedelic experience if that's what he's having? It's, I mean, it's hard to parse it out and i'm not saying

1:30:41 That would be fun. Well, is there something to be got to the bottom of it? should be a way to evaluate these things rigorously, not abandon rigorous thought, Scientists don't have that luxury if they're practicing scientists. I mean, with themselves, with what they know, like the example of the archaeologists or the psychedelic researchers back in the 80s.

1:33:42 And science is a very medieval institution in that respect. Whatever it is. To whatever that dmt experience is that this is don't have access to with normal neurochemistry? And we thought maybe DMT was, and maybe it is. And natural philosophy always remembers the limits of what is known. We don't know shit. He's taken a reductionist argument on this that's kind of hard to knock down, which is that DMT is produced endogenously, but it's chopped up so quickly that it never reaches the site of action,

1:38:56 Have you done it? And the Buddha came to town and he said, for the last 20 years, I've practiced the city we talked about this other thing, this Ajna Light we discussed. I'm going to buy myself one and you one. stimulates endogenous synthesis of right now it's pretty spell it out for me a j n a Right. But anyway, so this light can produce some sort of psychedelic experience.

1:41:18 Yeah. And the first time I lied under it, I got all these colors. So, okay. And then you could recover that and say, you know, Oh. proof, right? That was It's a complicated issue, you know. You know, facts are good. I haven't done it. You just suspend it. Because Crash was trying to put, he's the mad scientist behind the float lab, and in the absence of any physical input, right,

1:46:43 like that, or some something that you could get in there or maybe musical instruments that you'd be able to pick up concepts and things with minimal distraction. there's no input. Yes. Is it kosher to ask you, have you taken psychedelics and gone into the tank? This one's not legal. Yeah. Well. Damn. Got me down. A part of the time I was teaching at the University of Minnesota, and then I stepped back from that a couple of years ago because I just didn't have time.

1:50:09 We got to wait for our house. to live in Vancouver. The housing market is utterly nuts, If you want to go anywhere, you have to take a ferry. That's Brugmansia. You can't move a muscle. Yeah. Terrible film. Very articulate man. but he's not a stuffy guy. I'd love to get into it. Wade and I can do some work together and maybe even teach, you know, work on this thing in South

1:55:17 Well, it's happening faster than I had dared to hope, actually. And so, you know, and for me personally, what I want to do, part of my problem is I'm running around the world all the time and I'm going to these conferences. And there's just – I've always liked the idea of platforms, you know, and I want to create a platform, well, a catalytic nexus for global consciousness transformation.

1:57:55 And then I can be like, you know, I can be more in residence there and I don't have to keep running around the world. There's so many people that really have no idea where to start. And it seems to be moving in that way. whole, or in Peru, because the whole regulatory You know, San Pedro called part of the tradition you know san pedro therapeutic revolution is going to come when you fuse shamanism and the clinical approach.

2:01:34 things that this relates to, like sustainable agriculture. It's a perfect place to look at, an incredible genetic repository of these things that have never really been developed on a global I'm also interested in the, uh, the sort of the pharmacopoeia of other plants that, Most importantly is the people that you have in there, not the equipment that you have.

2:04:53 As of today, I think, yes. Do they have any plans or do you know of considering the legality You wouldn't believe it. This guy is an aspiring young politician, Canadian politician from Ottawa. And the thing is the Canadians are reasonable people. I do. I guess. It's a very bizarre geometric pattern that resembles a chrysanthemum. They don't have the drug hysteria that we had.

2:07:46 piss off that little elf sessions right you know um but i think which is great he needs to be pissed country it doesn't make any sense when you think about how many troops come back over from I think within five years, you're going to see clinics and maybe even centers, you know, along the lines of what we're talking about, you know, doing in the Sacred Valley.

2:10:05 be sensational. Yeah. Dude, I'll help. I swear to God. I'll go over there. I love Vancouver. I go To Peru? Your wife can do yoga or whatever she wants to do. Of course you can do it. We don't meet it financially. And this could be a way to heal them, to help them reconcile their That's the thing. You know, he wants to come back at you extra hard. What's that? Wouldn't you love to take him for a trip?

2:13:49 Trump is a sociopath. I mean, when is a person beyond reproach or beyond help? Well, we make that assumption, you know, and it may not be true. So that's a new thing. But the disruption is happening anyway. He's as much the victim of the times as anybody else. Right, and of expectations. You know, he was the rich guy with his name on the big buildings.

2:17:37 we just want our guy to win. Now it's our guy. And Hillary, Hillary represented the bureaucrats. She represented the The swamp is inescapable. This is the petulant six-year-old aspect of it. I mean, if he can pull that off, more power to him. Well, it was unprecedented to see the leader of North Korea and South Korea meet at the DMZ and shake hands and travel back and forth.

2:20:08 He can't be entirely foolish. And some of that might benefit us. Yeah. But in fact, at the stroke of a pen, he could change that. But this is PR. This is going around today. But is that some fashion jacket? But what are we talking about? Yeah, to see what's going on. I mean, clearly. Might be real. like what that was fake yeah you you just went it only took an hour how long did

2:24:57 Yes. My concern, my real concern is that we are the last wave of the biological human. them into our, they're going to become a part of your body we're going to getting estranged from nature we have to re-understand our relationship and and and you And we are – one of our problems I feel as a species, we're extremely clever but we're not wise. We can do the Hadron experiment and, oh, maybe it will collapse the space-time continuum.

2:29:26 That's for sure going to be a meme with a photo of your face that we are very clever, And that the thinking, curious monkey who strives for material possessions is designed to create artificial life. You know, on some level, anything that can be done is going to be done. So why don't we do this? for the first time in history pose a real possibility that we could end life on Earth.

2:31:57 was filled up with SSRIs and antidepressants Yeah. but I am completely obsessed that we are a relic and that we are on our way out. And that now here we are in a place where we hardly need them. This is not something that makes sense in the long haul, but yet we still go down this illogical road. And that this is really just because this is the best way to fuel innovation.

2:34:35 I mean, then maybe this is inevitable If when we do, if we do symbiotically merge with technology and electronics, that that might be the form that we take. I've heard that experience. They've lost all the muscle. that we would eventually have bigger heads because we have bigger heads than Australopithecus and certainly bigger heads than chimps or bonobos.

2:37:18 i love illogical behavior do i love art yeah love all those things. I love music and food and all the things With these better options, That we'd like to stay humans forever? But if you go to this culture, it's amazing. And that's the whole thing. I'm not against technology. But again, I think we have to, you know, we have to bring wisdom to it. We have to make a situation where, you know, it is not controlling us. We are controlling it. And we're thinking clearly about, we have, you know, this enormous panoply

2:41:09 And I think that's the most important. I totally agree. You can get it on Amazon, but Synergetic Press. All right. Thank you.