Joe Rogan Experience #1139 — Jordan Peterson Transcript

Transcript

0:00 Five, four, three, two, one. What do you, speeches? Shuffling. I'm trying to make sure that everyone's on track with the talk. And, you know, there's people gesture with their face back and yeah so it was about five hours of intense discussion over two days and you know we were supposed to talk for an hour Yeah, well, you guys had two podcasts that you did over the phone.

3:19 You guys got kind of stuck in that first conversation. well, or for the second one for that matter. well, probably forever, but certainly since the time of David Hume, several hundred years. Sam is doing it, and you're doing something on a larger scale, I use the stage, let's say, as an opportunity in And it might be even deeper than the original Gutenberg revolution, because it isn't obvious

6:50 and there's a great hunger for it. But then Netflix came along and HBO as well with the bandwidth restrictions gone and all of a sudden it turned out that, no, no, we can handle 40-hour complex multilayered narratives I don't want to use the word hate. format. And it's a format that in my opinion is like, I mean, it might as well be smoke signals guy but this desire to label and to to have this diminishing label is like alt-right or you know

10:34 happen? And then I thought, oh yes, well, if you're radically left and you're playing the identity and it has to be cast as left versus right. You go on a TV talk show, and maybe it's an hour long, something like that, but you've got your six minutes. portion of the remaining audience. And yet the reports of violence in media And I think that's actually why the polarization seems to be so acute now.

14:23 There's these certain things that you're not allowed to deviate from. Explain Title IX for people who say standalone. But, you know, some of that's driven by legislative necessity. they don't, and there's no evidence that they do. psychologist, because psychological tests have been used to prove that there's this implicit bias that they're pushing might not be tested and proven, the idea of putting it out there in

18:07 You have to do things. or you can't do anything, right? You're too split with your choices. So you have to do things, Well, the hierarchy can get corrupt and rigid, and B, because some people are way better at it than others, you're going to produce a bunch of dispossessed people at the bottom. answer to that is, there's no final answer to the problem. So what you have to do is you have to

20:51 I think if you're making claims of ethnic or racial superiority, you get to be put in a box and put off the shelf, right? But it isn't just the moderate left's problem, because even the people on the right don't know It doesn't have the same guttural punch that the excess of the right has. greatest work of nonfiction of the 20th century, I mean, it's in the top 10 anyways, was to point

23:15 makes them an oppressor. So like if you're a black man, well, you could argue that you're You ended up being put into the oppressor camp, right? I mean, in the Soviet Union, we don't know how many people died. Like the communists killed all the socialists. because they had more than someone else. That's how they defined it in order to get the people to rally against it.

25:33 So does that make all of us oppressors? Right. That's obvious because the rightwingers are pathological. then all of a sudden I get an increment in my moral virtue. that the left is always associated in support of gay rights. The left is always associated in support of all races and all genders. Just define it how you're using it. there's lots of sub-elements of the patriarchy that aren't male-dominated.

29:01 is that still the patriarchy? But the thing is that the whole concept is so ill-defined that it beguiles description. you go look for a massage therapist, you look, or a surgeon for that matter, or a lawyer, you go look for the person who's most competent. And one of the things the left can't tolerate is the idea that And I think that is a matter of the consequence of hierarchical structures.

31:57 Well, why do they need a political voice? But it's less corrupt than most systems, look the system is functioning oh let's say at 75%. on this or more written in the last five years by credible people, is that the distribution of the are getting access to this incredible technology that's embodied in cell phones, right? Right. only listen to them. You only listen to the one, you only read the productions of one-tenth of one

36:33 That's how it works. And if you have an IQ of less than 85, it's hard for you to read well enough to follow instructions. It's like hierarchies are complex tools and that's the reason that political dialogue is necessary. and those are the two poles And the best example of that is sports. At the end of the game, they didn't announce a winner. It was the strangest thing.

39:32 There's a point where you become an obsessive overwinner, right? like equality of outcome are the people that are trying to slow that down. Let's not forget about that. And it's very much relevant to your concept, your talk about athletics. It's like you tell your kid that and they look at you and they think, well, what do you mean by that? Well, there's winning the game, but the game isn't the issue.

42:30 maybe the best thing is for your star player when he was about 12 or so, he was in the championship game, just at a local arena, you know, and it was really fun to watch. The teams were pretty equal, which is something that you want, so that everybody can expand their skills while they're playing. question is why? Because his son was the star and was trying to win. Why was he ruining his son?

44:04 is to be a contender in the entire series. and not to put winning the game above everything at all times. And he'll be socialized and he'll be invited to many games, some of which he'll win, all of which he'll be able to participate in. game. And you never want to compromise your ability to do well at life for the sake of winning a they're only out for themselves,

46:18 who's got it all nailed. Someone who tries their hardest, but is also honest enough about the circumstances to not cry foul And the response is much more negative from the fans to that? Because they know. They know that you lost. They know that you're complaining for no Right. are the person who's competing. You are expecting them to live out this life in a perfect way or in

49:17 You're really good at what you do and you're getting better. and I'm not pushing myself forward. And so then you also take the meaning out of it. Like, we need to figure out why that's true. And the reason that it's true is that you're trying to And no one likes that. So the morality that's associated with defeat is more extreme. And this is one of the reasons why these people are willing to put their health on the line

52:26 The victory is over – you've got to realize a guy like Stipe Miocic He's a product of discipline and hard work and thinking and strategy and constantly improving upon his skills. the right control for yourself too because you're the one who's had all your advantages and through life so it's very necessary to understand that this is why you know i've been stressing this

54:34 It's like not the right question. might say well what's the right way of being in the world if there is such a thing and it's not because no matter how... Just the tragedy, but the tragedy combined with betrayal and malevolence, Transcend your current wretched and miserable self. Not in rights, not in impulsive pleasure, but in responsibility. And that's where the meaning is to be found.

57:27 Ali defeats Frazier, basically by of the movie, he knocks Frazier down. And it's pretty much the end of the fight, but Frazier out. That's his plan. Then right at the end of the movie, he knocks Frazier down. said, and this is He got taken apart. The theory has to work in the worst case scenario. Because, well, you know, it depends on how much time you have to outline the ideas.

59:35 for it, and the answer to that is to find a way of being that works even under the direst of what have you got under those circumstances? like even if there were errors And then they struggle back up and make an empire, and then they get demolished again. that underestimates the degree to which there's systemic oppression, etc., etc., Well, let's say you've got a kid and you want the kid to improve. You don't set them a bar that's

1:02:26 that would result in an actual improvement. You don't go and, like if you haven't bench pressed before, and people would come over and help me with the goddamn weights. who've been lifting weights for 10 years and I'm struggling to get 50 pounds off the bar. don't aim up, but you have to accept the fact that you can set yourself a goal that you can attain,

1:04:46 because it means that as you start to fail, you fail more and more rapidly. And then that puts you in a position to take a slightly bigger step the next day. but I've really been putting my life together since I've been watching your lectures. And so that's absolutely perfect. I've had, I don't know how many people have come and told me. And then lowering

1:07:20 better. It's so wonderful to be It's way better. And they haven't been explained how to do this. another thing that well you are and you're not right you're okay as a human look if you want And maybe you're okay if you're okay in your position and your trajectory. no, I'm not. I'm having a terrible time, and I'm hopeless. You're okay the way you are.

1:09:56 And that will give you the antidote to the suffering. That's why you have to impose order. to give up the potential. And you look out in the world and all you see are Captain Hooks, you know, And so then you, as you said, this is the trick though. And the issue is, well, how? And so that's part of that process of You have to go and look and see where everything needs to be fixed. And that's like, that is harsh, man. But, and then in order to do that properly, someone has to have

1:13:34 And so you look at all the things about yourself And it'll scream in agony while you're burning it off. seems like an alien concept it seems like something other people can do but if you do it incrementally ideal future here's how you're going to break it into goals here's how you're going to mark Yeah. They've never walked them through that exercise.

1:16:08 They don't teach you how to confront insecurities and different traps that why do you think, You're not going to write a good essay because you're wrong right to begin with. It has to matter to you. Well, why does it matter? What does it mean that it matters? Well, it means that it's but you won't have manifested the good in the world that you could have manifested.

1:17:54 are as solid as they can be. instinct like you think okay so we already decided that incremental That's the zone of proximal development. as an antidote to the catastrophe of life. Well, that's the, well, that's the answer. That's Peter Pan again. And that's the antidote to the catastrophe of life. And then when are you not awake in the morning at 3 in the morning

1:20:39 Like I've made that a goal. I'm trying to heal my family and bring it together and it's working. excited he said are you Dr. Peterson I said yeah yeah he said I'm really really happy to meet you That's a pretty good morning. It's like, yes, that's what this bloody tour has been like. that helps me withstand tragedy and suffering? This is what it's been like.

1:23:18 And so, you know, I mean, first of all, a lot of what I've been telling people are things that I've gleaned from the clinical and the psychological literature. and and as in and i'm hoping too that maybe maybe what's happening because we've we're going to have the way out of the excesses of the right and the left, we'll get wise enough so we won't let this process of political polarization

1:25:26 You are the most misrepresented person I've ever met in my life. But the people that are opposing you, The identity politics types don't like me at all. It's not the same as forbidding hate speech. And why should I trust your damn reasons anyways? So I think that when push comes to shove, if your unit of analysis is the group, and your worldview is one group and its power claims against all other groups, that that's not acceptable.

1:28:57 And so you don't like me, so I must be an alt-right figure. Do everything possible. flaws and their humanity. Well, I think it's certainly the case that the vision that's been first of all, first of all, And they're in a number of different media places, mostly in print. people who could struggle forward but the collectivist vision it's deadly but you seem to be the poster boy for this uh very simple

1:32:04 People decided, and I had never heard that term before, quite honestly, Like she knew, the journalist knew perfectly well what I meant by enforced monogamy. you should attribute to them views But the question is, why didn't, why wasn't there follow-up questions? Because that is... If all the women are rejecting you, it's you. deviate from that we tilt towards a more violent society i was making a very minor point i don't

1:34:58 then a small minority of men get all the Which is what the women want. Yes, that is the solution. It gives everyone a chance, meaning it clears more, more women will be available for one-on-one relationships rather than one guy who is some, you know, whatever, for whatever reason, some large figure in society. If these men, if you have a guy like a LeBron James that's a dominant basketball player that just kicks everyone's ass, this is a guy who succeeded at the highest level, right?

1:37:42 me and caricaturing my perspective, that was the point she was making. Well, first of all, I'm not in favor And even if you decide to have enforced monogamy, where it becomes a popular thing, the women are going to be more drawn to him if he chooses to date them. There's a lot of people that choose to go their entire life without having children. I do.

1:39:32 that the issue of outcome has to be addressed. Because the men who are winning should be allowed to win But the issue here for me isn't the men or the women. It's everything else. It's an unbelievably good predictor of that. by the fact that they want bigger, bigger, better. assume that the man who wins is the best man, marry him. Well, the cost is polygamy.

1:42:29 don't have polygamous or polyamorous tendencies, because they certainly do. And it's certainly also is they pick a monogamous marriage and they Well, it's common, but it's not the norm, right? It's still the norm not to do that. The norm is That's not what you're supposed to be doing. mother gap. There's other reasons too, The gender pay gap, when people discuss it, they don't understand it.

1:45:36 The case is women choose different professions that don't pay as much. Men are more likely to move. They want a one and a zero. Warren Farrell's book on, he wrote a book provide, now obviously he was doing it for public Because how much you make isn't the only hallmark of success in your life. like yeah but that's not the only hallmark how much socio-economic success are you willing to

1:48:28 More success is always better along this unidimensional axis of achievement. Well, happy is a whole different issue. charisma, prestige. with law firms for a very long period of time, Some were disagreeable, litigator types, and some were more agreeable. And it isn't because the law firms don't want them. flat out, all the time, seven days a week. well in the game. And they wake up at 30 and they think, oh, wait a minute, I want to have a

1:51:35 between men and women. Yes. But like, why that isn't a feminist case is beyond me. It's like, It's bloody mainstream science, could not be achieved, years something like that the big five model five dimensions of personality and they were established because that's one of the traits, agreeableness, and it's the compassion, politeness dimension, So now, there are personality differences between men and women.

1:54:23 there's an overwhelming probability that they'll be It also doesn't mean that there are, there's plenty of women who are more aggressive than men. Everyone agrees. got more egalitarian, the differences between men and women got bigger, not smaller. Then they go after the whole idea of science as a Western patriarchal construct. Part of it is actual compassion.

1:57:19 that hierarchies produce dispossession. Bloody right. Okay. What's the cure? Get rid of the But then also, it isn't just compassion on the left. Because that's clearly the case. Why? It's like if you're on my side, motivates aggression, because it certainly does. It's also that it's that the envious and the Down with the 1%. It's like, well, why isn't the

2:00:35 that motivates the radical left. And the probability that it's more powerful than love let's say, just for the sake of argument, everyone who had a modicum of success Why do you think that people are so opposed to discussing these things or to challenging cultural norms? just for the sake of argument. Well, that's the question. highly probable i don't know if that's okay.

2:03:38 Some of them are strategic in some sense because women pay a bigger price for reproduction. stance or an anti-feminist stance? And just equality of human beings. Right. And I'm not being facile about that. What are you going to do? Right. and misrepresenting you was uh you did an article an interview with vice and they use a snippet of He's left-leaning.

2:06:56 And, you know, you asked earlier, well, why do I get pilloried with some regularity? I said, and they didn't put this in their initial cut, I said, And people were absolutely furious. it's like, all right, look, here's the, of possibilities, possible rules, right? No flirting, no hugging, no eye contact for more Holy shit. Oh, fucking Christ. that I've never had any sexual interest at all,

2:09:30 Okay, can you come to work in a negligee? It's like, okay, you can't come to work naked And so the idea was, well, we want to get rid of excess diversity, right? In clothing, What about makeup? They want to wear it. He has to say that. his take or because he's trying to Why shouldn't they wear makeup? Like, perhaps, like, he was intellectually sp Do you think that he felt, like perhaps, like he was intellectually

2:12:13 to challenge me, intellectual condescension. actually reprehensible opinions. And it's the problem of deviating from the doctrine of minimal necessary force. time with the people they work with than they do with their lovers and their wives and their guys going out together, let's say, it's not like they're working to find each other unattractive. border conditions so well if we're going to have a conversation about this let's talk about the

2:14:58 And you said, forced to, probably not. You didn't expect that issue because this is not something you talk about commonly. and really have a comprehensive perspective. And you didn't expect that to be a subject anyway? And one hypothesis being, don't do interviews that will be edited. Yes. Like that's what happened in the Kathy Newman interview. But I walked away from it because there was 50 other things to do.

2:18:11 So they put up the whole interview. Then there was all this response to it. And then the Newman people, who were absolutely flabbergasted by the negative response, said, victim so to play the victim card in a situation like that is absolutely reprehensible but that's people do there have to be with regards to Kathy Newman's conduct are running about 50 to 1 so that's all trolls is it I don't

2:20:21 it might be time for me just to disappear I mean, is your message out enough that you don't have to do these And long-form conversations. careful in picking and choosing but that doesn't When you expose yourself to editing, you expose yourself to someone's idea of what the narrative I think we talked for 40 minutes, something like that. Well, look, it was the Aspen Ideas Festival.

2:23:07 Festival, and that was long form uncut and put on the web. And so maybe that was useful. The Atlantic So that's the good. Two years almost, yeah. I mean, you get brought up with at least my circle of friends all the time and people that I run into all the time. huh, I wonder what'll happen if I put my lectures up on YouTube. validated process by any stretch of the

2:25:45 it's okay for them to retrain other people about their hypothetical views on the off It's a misuse of it. that at the university I work at without me telling people that there's no warrant for that No. you're provocative. And so your personality in this long form But fundamentally, And we're on the cutting edge of that, for better or worse. as can read complex information

2:29:33 which is also a major component of this, looks like people are more intelligent they're interested in having discussions on the long form. And the situational determinants first take your damn personality out of it. Also a lack of interference by executives and producers It's competent, but no more than that. Well, that's partly also why i deal with the

2:32:13 It happened to me in 19, boy, it was like 99. There was nothing that I could do about that. And you're the person who works for the Boston Globe And it's one of the reasons why I don't do anything anymore. But, you know, the thing is, you know, you made a point there that's quite interesting. And when I'm defining benefit, well, the question is then what constitutes

2:35:17 So there's some benefit in that. Yeah, yeah. I really do. Yeah. was in quotes, and then there were some joining words, I don't think they can, Joe. I think they're It's quite comical. Yeah, it's basically been the bestselling book in the world since January. You're burning up your brand. And it'll die faster than people think. It's hard to say. Every newspaper.

2:39:50 but it alienates people from the brand and speeds their demise. No one needs cable TV. before the election, like leading up to the election. I'm getting pussy grabbing and I'm getting Benghazi. anyone to pay attention and this is the way they have to do it to ensure and i think what's happening on the other side which is the side you occupy say is that a new technology that's long

2:41:51 So then the sense is, well, do you have fundamental trust in the judgment of your fellow man, And so I would say the attempts to discredit me aren't working. But I think that most people, The sensible will triumph. context and misrepresenting your positions to the world willfully and doing so in order This is what's devastating about it. You're going to get slaughtered for it.

2:44:53 Okay. You have done this for how long now? you shifted over to only meat and greens. having this extreme health benefit. two years in extreme agony. And that was just a tiny fraction of the whole set of problems. She couldn't stay awake for more than about six hours without taking Ritalin. It was the only thing we could see. wounds that wouldn't heal. And that was partly part of the process that eventually killed her.

2:48:57 all the way down to nothing but chicken and broccoli. And I've had depression since I was 13, probably, and very severe. And I've treated it a variety of ways, some of them quite successfully. Yeah. Well, imagine you have a dog and you really love the dog and then the dog dies. no i wouldn't say that i wouldn't say there's nothing worse because worse is a very deep hole

2:51:08 She was like done for a month. So the greens themselves. I can hang by my fingernails from the windowsill for a month. Because I had gained some weight. Okay, next. And I'd already gone for a whole year on a sugar-free diet. Seven pounds. working. And so although I was getting better physically in a variety of ways, like radical ways, That's for sure.

2:54:09 and chicken and beef less anxious in the morning And so I can sleep six hours a night. No problem. I wake up in the morning, I'm awake. If I take a And my gums are in perfect shape. It's like, what the hell? So here's what happened. No, I'll get that done again when I go back to Toronto. I drink club soda. Those distinctions I'm very curious. I am not recommending this to anyone.

2:57:20 She was 70. I will go off with ice cream and things along those lines. Like that's never happened to me in my whole life. Okay. or allergic, whatever the hell this is, Oh, yeah. During. Oh, it, it, it produced an overwhelming sense of impending doom. I didn't sleep that month. Oh, yeah. people with arthritis fasted, their symptoms reliably went away. And that's actually a well

3:01:37 but that doesn't seem to be a problem with the diet. It seems a problem with deviating from the then you're more sensitive to what do it all the time, your body becomes tolerant. Well, I think that the layering of fat on might Michaela posted a paper the other day. all these stories that i'm collecting as i'm touring. And, you know, people, lots of people have come up to me and said, look, I lost 45 pounds in the last three months.

3:04:05 I should have been 185, something like that. Jesus, I had to throw all my clothes away. It's not like you're running five miles a day. carbohydrates for a month, the carbohydrate cravings went away. You know, last night when You're eating way less things. Well, I think it starts out 30 ounces before they cook it. Well, I eat fatty cuts of steak. I know.

3:06:51 So a lot of what we're trying to do is pull out information from correlations. You only need one confounding variable they should be incredulous like when people make absurd claims it's like oh well i had 50 health and she doesn't look 58. I can tell you that. How does that work? It'd be pretty funny if it was in good shape. That's a possibility. You could take plenty of vitamin supplements.

3:09:41 And I do some of that, but not a lot. Oh yeah. How difficult is it when you're trying to get breakfast? Oh, okay. So that works pretty well. There's positive benefits that a lot of people achieve and experience when they switch to a vegan diet. for some people of vegan diet is preferable, is what's happened to me and this is what's happened to my wife and my daughter.

3:12:22 And she's taking no immunomodulators at all. Whatever. It's got to be at least six to eight months now. I'm curious. Great seeing you, man. Intellectual dark web. a bunch of people that are honest intellectually honest about their and and maybe don't even and that's kind of interesting. spy versus spy stuff. it's got this funny conspiratorial element there that's sort of true and sort of mostly dramatic.

3:15:09 platform so we can speak independently. Most of us are interested in long form philosophical He does the Q&As with me. I can say it, and sometimes it's funny. I mean, I'm watching it with curiosity. or if it'll screw up what I'm doing, or if it, I don't know anything about it, but mostly I'm So I thought that's funny, and it's kind of cool, and the Rat Pack in the 1950s. I thought, well, I know maybe it isn't, but that's what came to mind. So I thought that's funny and it's kind of cool and it's interesting

3:18:06 But it was very enjoyable. people. Peculiar. Very And that's what's interesting about it. Why did you do that? They didn't take a picture of me. Okay, so your take on it is that it's, well, it's interesting. Yes. It did. Good to see you again.