Joe Rogan Experience #1176 — Dom D'Agostino & Layne Norton Transcript

Transcript

0:00 Four, three, oh, two, one, and we're live. Kept lifting, did powerlifting, won two national championships, got silver medal at Worlds, Yeah. this stuff. this big there's a big symposium every year for science geeks and uh we were both going to it Keep the sucker. I know there's a thing with Navy SEALs with preventing epilepsy. And I study the science of that.

4:01 Google Mike Dancer ketogenic diet, and you'll find an amazing story about a guy who used undergrad. And then that kicked off about 10 years ago. where people get really enthusiastic about it. Not my job to judge their ethics on that sort of thing. impairs exercise performance in endurance athletes. you're able to do a lot of hand waving about insulin. And you know, when you burn so much

7:40 The overall caloric balance is what determines whether or not you will have net storage or They did a study overfeeding women where they overfed them 50% above their caloric maintenance. on fructose and obesity and fatty liver disease. That's what she said. a lot of wonky stuff going on. What do you mean the mitochondria becomes dysfunctional? to what you burn relative to that turnover, that mitochondria start to become dysfunctional,

11:18 mitochondria, what happens is you start to back up every part of metabolism. where you also start inhibiting the insulin receptor. And now you have glucose, fatty acids, So when you're overfeeding, whether it be carbohydrate, fat, It's a big factor, whether or not high carb or low carb is the way to go. This is the end-all, be-all. Within one year, 70% will put it all back on.

14:37 research out there that we have, that shows how to create lasting weight loss, and you look at the And they look at, okay, what's the consensus amongst these studies? And they have advanced Not necessarily the ketogenic diet. isn't that a discipline issue? Well, partly, but we kind of have to start looking at, okay, if we go and – let me kind of wanes because we're trying to be so disciplined for this other thing and it's draining us.

17:38 same way for another person. And Dom even commented on this about his wife, Chilla. skinny as a kid. And she tolerates carbohydrate. She's very carbohydrate tolerant. Did I say there's not a an overwhelming need for food yeah i. I haven't had anything to eat today. I mean, when I was eating massive plates of pasta professorship, you know, getting tenure and things like that, where I could just put more time and

20:29 So a couple of things. it is almost 90 to 95% explained by weight loss. when we look at studies, we're looking at means, right? So we're talking about averages. Like that is not up for debate. diet, I'm not sitting here and saying that somebody may actually physiologically do better on a ketogenic diet versus a lower fat diet. That's a very individual response. But when we start making

23:40 Because protein has a big benefit on thermogenesis and weight loss. 80% to 90% carbs and reduce my body weight and get changes in all that. Well, I'm just saying – so like I think that's very powerful too that these changes that I just mentioned can occur without changing your body weight. even for obese people, but you're trying to do it because you're trying to get a little bit better blood glucose regulation,

26:21 for sure food preference but i believe that by when you follow low-carb, not even ketogenic diet, the variability of the fluctuations in your insulin and blood glucose, the postprandial dip in blood glucose that you get after you eat, that's virtually abolished or significantly attenuated. And my sister, for example, followed the ketogenic diet and found it easy to follow, but she gained weight because she was eating all these fat bombs that she was making.

28:14 food companies. You have a real one and a keto cookie and that fucking real cookie gets eaten every time. They actually elevate ketones or don't cause a glycemic response some of those keto They can't fuck with real cookies. Interesting, though. no not a reward system you're not a dog don't reward yourself for food okay because because but myself and some other people on the message boards popularized something called flexible

31:41 i do because i'm saying well, everything in moderation and you got in terms of what made them tick. But also some people I worked with just seem to do better with higher carb, lower fat. This is what's causing obesity, right? All these people say that high fructose corn syrup is like the worst thing in the world for you. Now, again, that's just correlation data. But if you do look at the overall calorie

34:37 So again- not saying a decrease in high fructose corn syrup consumption. The way processes it is essentially the same? that's a big, big no-no. we got little kids. the 60s, we were eating about 2,200 calories So that's fine. and they looked at high glycemic diet Same amount of total carbs. But no differences in weight loss. right? So if I've got somebody like myself who has above average muscle mass, hopefully I can

38:39 You're welcome. No, it's fine. of the flexible dieting movement still eat these foods i enjoy and i'm still losing weight because I'm in a calorie deficit and I'm hitting my protein, carb, and fat targets. eating? Like, what are your foods? And it was chicken, rice, and broccoli. And I said, and some This makes me sound really bad. And I think he learned a lot just from watching Lane.

42:38 I think the accumulation of the postprandial spikes in glucose and insulin over time, especially in the context of a calorie surplus, could be a bad thing. It would go up on a higher carb diet. It would go up on a higher carb diet too. you have a greater risk for every one of those, you know, dramatic. You actually touched on a couple of the points I was going to bring up.

45:17 I'm obese. But if you look at the general population who doesn't exercise, it's actually pretty darn accurate. Some insurances will do like a waist to chest measurement, which helps. done this with LDL cholesterol, or sorry, yes, LD cholesterol. We believe, most people believe that LDL cholesterol have lower rates of heart disease. I'm guessing probably more so fasting.

48:27 When you say, okay, well, a Pop-Tart, maybe you can lose weight on it, but it can't be Higher protein has a higher TEF than carbohydrate and fat. So with a Pop-Tart, I think it's pretty high with raw, like a salad with nuts and things like that. Yeah. People say things like... One of the reasons people are really mistrustful of kind No, you ate in what you thought was a calorie deficit and you didn't lose weight.

51:31 They're a good model. Animal studies can be helpful, but you don't want to do like an insulin study in cows because cows are ruminants and they don't care about insulin. What they found was absolutely astonishing. Did their ability to lose it get fast as well? Because every time you diet, and we see this with yo-yo dieters who spend – how many people do you know that seem to be perpetually on a diet?

53:43 to crash diet super low. get you. Which is more dangerous in the last 20,000 years? It's famine. It's famine. So your You're anabolic for fat. to determine how fast it actually takes to bring your metabolism back up and if different strategies can be used to ramp up your metabolism. what's the so so you have so we can calculate all this stuff so your overall total daily energy

56:46 which is like this, like I'm moving my hands. I'm ambulatory movement, non-voluntary movement. Then your exercise activity, which is intuitive. Because if you lose muscle and you lose fat, you have less weight to carry around, right? go way longer. So going back to that study on rats, they became so much more efficient with while you're dieting actually go up because it's preparing your body for restorage.

59:36 you've probably been around people who do this yo-yo stuff. you were losing weight. It just gave up some of its nutrients, you know, like the guy who And typically, you have – the way we gain fat or lose fat is based on the fat cell size. Now, this was in rats, full disclosure. as much stuff as possible. You're talking about weight loss and weight gain, but you were specifically discussing

1:02:25 So ketones are – So that is true. for hypoglycemia at a level of hypoglycemia that's typically easier because your brain's adapted to it. That for me had tremendous practical applications that allowed me, I feel, to excel through academia. I was able would be the case for everyone. But I also titrated the calories in that I wasn't really Well, it was a sweetened.

1:06:09 See, here's me being. You're healthy. Okay. discipline right but you can be fit but fat yes. Because you have morbidly obese people. For sure. Listen. He's a good friend of mine. Literally, for me to stand up was, because I just didn't feel like getting the fucking remote. Dude squats legit 1,080 pounds. i was in pretty good shape for that but for me to get to like eight percent body fat no problem

1:09:34 Because it's dependent upon hydration and a bunch of other factors. It depends on the machine, your hydration status, because water. I see. and and get to a level where i he looked very gaunt i mean you looked yeah what looks good there You actually become, so a friend of mine, Chris Foss, Chris is like the most – dude by the end his mood measurements were measuring like that of a psychopath

1:13:01 it's so dangerous too and it's it's really you can only do it three or four times and then your body starts to They start crushing it. They say, well, if you look at metabolic adaptation, it only explains, it's only a If you challenge your body with something extreme, naturally high I've worked with a lot of females now because especially in physique sports, there's

1:15:17 No menstrual cycle. And then from there, I go to, OK, what – so if we got what's sustainable for you, now can we get a little bit better? Yeah. That can basically initiate So it's not like you have it or you don't. And if you take enough insulin, like, you can basically go hypoglycemic. I teach on it. So this is an issue with people's individual dietary systems? So some people have alpha-lactalbumin sensitivity where if they've got some kind of leaky gut – so normally your injunctions are tight.

1:18:42 But in people who have normal digestion, that just doesn't happen. I just, as you said, I'm anti-bullshit, so I'm not going to let you make claims about why something works when that's not why it works, right? Um, So now obviously you can't eat a deficit, because then you would starve yourself to death. you like ketogenic most and i think you're a big fan of meat if you can sustain that you know like

1:21:05 Well, here's the problem. And we got fatter. It's not as bad as we thought. then your body wants to store those carbohydrates as well. living by your body being stupid. That's nothing compared to, okay, if you like low carb better, don't worry about losing an extra 26 you know, playing football on a ketogenic diet necessarily. I just simply couldn't.

1:25:03 And even in some cases, the ketogenic diet makes sense. But again, there's a lot. that can confer resistance against many different things, oxidative stress pathways, It's hard to say that the study shows that if you eat carbs versus fat, that you live longer. Okay. it's informative, but not always predictive. And I think some of the data, I read some of

1:28:38 resistance, maybe it's worse for cancer. One diet is better for cognitive performance. It lift weights. If you're debating But the big picture things, lift weights, create more lean body mass, be active. context because when people like, I'll pick on him because he was who I asked for, it was Gary Taubes, but I'm happier But I think my point And I bet you would see improvements

1:31:31 controls, you know, that has fiber and adequate protein is a strategy that allows you to be far And the fat oxidation pathways are elevated. And most days that I want to be as productive as possible, I will not have my first meal, which will be typically a ketogenic meal around 4 p.m. lane and do deadlifts with him and actually maintain my performance and my strength in the gym. I don't feel like I'm an outlier either. I think it's possible.

1:34:19 I don't know. are not bodybuilders. And the population of people that Lane mostly communicates with I agree. But they're fat adapted, yeah. I think I did eat, but it was very abnormal for me to go eat a big meal, heavy meal on Part of it may be you're just adapted to that as well on what you're used to. physiological concept that you are But it's not like you're using

1:37:58 What kind of training though? Awesome sport. You really can't have a big meal Well, we talked a lot before. that is an actual physiological thing And they said, this will improve your allergies. give me more confidence when i can look at rats or mice on a ketogenic diet and see an objective increase or decrease in a parameter, then I gain confidence.

1:40:07 One of the number one characteristics of cancer survivors is that they're actually – they have a belief in God. So our brain can actually control many different physiological processes, including our immune It's a very individual thing. Holly tries to stop me because then I usually end up going to the bathroom for like five times. Right? Now, if you, if you just looked at these numbers as a doctor, you'd be like, Oh my God, you're diabetic. No, that's what they were adapted

1:44:02 And the same thing is sort of happening. Did you try it for three days? Once you're adapted to it. so we basically just buy the same food all the time. didn't do it long enough but my thing is like all my blood markers are healthy um i didn't see so i But then it was fine. But unless you're willing to, again, if that's not something you're willing to stick to for life, you have to rethink if you want to do it or not.

1:47:54 throw in, I tend to eat a lot of vegetables and then throw in some fruits to a few, a few days a and maybe a half cup of blueberries, and then a big salad and some vegetables, How much time is that? That's essentially, uh, cause Abbott corner of the market. They, uh, they basically allow you to So, yeah. The breathalyzers because of the, what did you say?

1:51:29 So one thing I'll bring up because you said, well, you work with these kind of metabolically elite people. So that's a big problem. The science... and inflammation. And again, I kind of get... So if you just calorically restrict, at a more significant level doing intermittent And so during that time post-meal, you're going to store a lot more fat. Because again, caloric restriction in and of itself decreases inflammation, increases

1:54:28 Yeah. Like you're going to be much more satiated from the protein. And I would not be comfortable recommending people not eat enough vegetables and fiber. Yeah. And then the national dairy council. But that's why they have to disclose those things on papers. and Office of Navy Research, but also by companies that actually develop ketone food products and

1:58:05 patent royalties and I put the patent royalties back into our research. So buying various exogenous ketones, uh, products that are on the market can come back and help support the science and the Like that's – than being right. When I went to do my PhD, I was eating eight meals a day. I was eating 300 Metrix with HMB in it, like in between meals, like back in the mid, early 90s.

1:59:55 But I looked at the research data and I'm like, either I believe this or I don't. Trans fats. I've tried to eat high fiber and I've tried to eat enough vegetables. And if they're followed by a doctor in collecting blood work along the way, I mean, those doctors can write case reports. but you know like if i even dogs eat grass i mean my dogs go out and eat around

2:02:17 you're experiencing the same benefits as him. Food technology. oh i didn't look at my blood i didn't i didn't measure those i didn't even know if you were So he's eight weeks into it, and that's about the point I was kind of feeling crummy and stuff. to acne, you know, type two diabetes, type one diabetes. Now that's a little bit controversial. essentially you're making more atp for a given amount of oxygen which actually means your

2:05:11 100%. He has a blog on ketonutrition.org. Go to it. And it's a very detailed description about creates ketones, acetoacetate and beta-hydroxybutyrate. And it occurs in the context of that's completely thrown out the window. So without insulin being there, So what has changed in your perception when you did not recommend it? those numbers are much, much tighter.

2:09:27 Again, here's me defending the ketogenic diet. Right now over the years, because he's a power lifter and he's a super big dude, he's like 250 perspective of an endocrinologist doctor managing type 1 to do that level of carbohydrate restriction I would probably be fine. Yeah, but you do. To get in the amount of, my hands i had a big serving of nothing i feel lots of energy but again it's it's it's it's individual and i want to to point out that

2:13:23 Oh, stop it. I don't know if you remember, but I was, remember I was sticking your fingers and measuring You just don't want to do it. What I like. Yeah. Yeah. That drives me crazy. I don't want to talk about people You start thinking about people that can't adhere to diets and fall. But the data doesn't support that. They have better adherence. I am as well, but you keep saying can sustain.

2:17:04 It's a discipline issue more than anything. The market for that is really big. So I think but then kind of because they're gonna the market So it's a combination of things. It starts being a big fat mind fuck. We're giving them these parachutes they can pull. Get that whipped cream going. The keto diet is not sustainable. It's not sustainable. put the work in to achieve this?

2:20:09 I don't like people who are like, it's too hard. they do it through many different methods, whether it's low carb, low fat, whatever it is. old you said hey when i was like bullied and picked on had no self-esteem, you're going to fucking squat 668 pounds one day Yes. And you talk to anybody who's successful in anything. Watch what he does. when i say sustainability i mean if it's if it... Because everybody has stuff that they find...

2:23:20 What's wrong with that? Nothing's wrong with that. They vary. of money that's going to be spent to get that data, you know, for an individual. So part of it caloric restriction and weight loss. But if, if you like vegan, if you like keto, if you like And I think all my health biomarkers are improving. You don't need any other reasoning for why you should do it.

2:25:55 regain that weight back. My co-writer for the book, Peter Baker, and I, we spent chapters talking about when you go in transition into, okay, we've lost the weight we want to lose. And everybody knows people like this who they go for six months, that's like sort of Everybody has like a set point their body likes to be at. goes too high, kick the cooling on, go back down.

2:28:27 So you would think there'd still be a biological drive to regain the weight. That said, and I'm going to go out on a limb here. I think what can happen is even if your leptin doesn't go up. Usually nothing is ever one thing, typically. a ketogenic diet initially because of the first few weeks are pretty rough and it really inhibits Insane. Not a zealot at all.

2:31:21 Probably relatively sparingly compared to a person that's already like very carb-adapted. So he's fully keto and he's using glucose. maybe, argue, anabolic in the context of certain scenarios. I would say ketones too. So if the science is very new, but exogenous ketones, Yeah, arguably a competing. I think, one, it's going to be individual. So I think based on the research I've seen, I think you're hard-pressed to convince me that a ketogenic diet is worse than a non-ketogenic diet on endurance.

2:35:00 Well, again, I don't – I'd like – I think the more fuel – But I think if you train and get your body fat and keto adapted, that provides benefits for recovery. showing that in response to LPS, which is kind of like a very powerful inflammatory stimulant, Yeah. Yeah. And before you get to this, is there one – is there a variation between low carb versus ketosis?

2:38:09 Like I said, I don't think it's going to be optimal for everybody, lane lane addresses that. think, Acute versus chronic. So this means that the body, for recovery, has an optimal level of inflammation it likes to be in. faster, but you're also limiting how much adaptation you're going to incur. And I love I'm not worried about growing muscle in that time.

2:41:18 But that points back to that there's an optimal range of inflammation that your body probably that we study. When you I'm sorry to interrupt you. But when you advise this to the military, So there was a recent study, and I can't remember the researcher's name. I'll send it to you. Now, I don't know for sure, so I don't want to say authoritatively, but I believe that.

2:43:42 Well, part of what ketones may signal is a deficit because usually you don't have them in a surplus, right? And that really covers the science. less muscle. So you're, there's always a give me and a gotcha for one benefit. There might be a but maybe having like absolute peak muscle mass But if I went to a Brazilian jujitsu instructor and I and i said what's the best technique he's going to look at

2:45:57 You know, calories matter. Steak and baked potatoes sounds like a good meal. My wife can eat two or three Big Macs in a sitting and wash it down with a full sugar Coke and still gain nothing. But this is what we do with nutrition because we pick out people that we follow and we go, oh, I'm just going to do that. I'm not against it either. Right. i don't know again i'm i am theorizing maybe that's the only way he can get enough food in

2:49:14 Happens all the time. attempts on each lift squat bench press and deadlift you're not depleting you're not carb limited so that you're not like that's what really amazed me even like you can fast for a week which i did in And that's He's a big low-carb proponent. in the fitness industry that there ever was. And what's the cost on performance Oh, it makes me so incensed. In fact, I won't say anybody by name, but I used to be in business with somebody who I found out that I had no hard evidence, but I had a lot of circumstantial evidence that they were faking data.

2:52:58 But, you know, it's one of those things. fashion that's the only way around it i keep reminding people like people who say things like elaborate conspiracy theories that come up around science and whatnot. Really? It felt like six. and we'd never cover all the topics or all the issues or all the details. LA, January 31st to February 3rd in Long Beach.

2:55:59 And I will be at it. I mean, I've done so many diet podcasts and I'm still a moron. Well, that's why like, you'll, who is the more knowledgeable of the two. They are very bad at picking that out. So you kind of And that's why like I'm sure – again, I'll relate it to MMA. So I think that's super important. Yeah. And I'm not, I'm not without bias too. I mean,

2:58:37 Instagram. your Twitter and Instagram. is my Twitter handle. We appreciate it.