Joe Rogan Experience #1188 — Lex Fridman Transcript

Transcript

0:00 four three two one I think the human mind is the most beautiful mystery that our entire civilization has taken on exploring through science. I think you look up at the stars and you look at the universe out there. You had, you know, the Grass Tyson here. It's an make words, So you mean almost like reverse engineering a brain. that you perhaps cannot kill a person with a single touch

3:26 it's like richard feynman who i'm dressed after today are you he's a physicist i'm not sure if And you keep doing it, and there's an infinite number of layers. Go is really difficult to solve as a game. It just exhibits creativity. familiar with the game of Go, so I can speak, I'm Russian, so chess to us is romanticized, of the human. area where I work in, does that require creativity?

7:30 Well, there's creativity in different levels, right? right so he's imagining a world and imagining the emotion of different levels surrounding that world. I hope I'm not saying the wrong thing. Because he almost, I'm not even exactly sure And what is the muse? the limits of our imagination. we don't understand and we crave we're both terrified and we crave in creating this thing

11:14 Did you study the actual development of the mind all the different kinds of systems in there. And then I said, there's a magic that happens when you build a robot that drives around. union where we didn't watch too many movies so i need to catch up we should catch up on that one And the being is trying to figure out who made him. Yeah, I've seen it.

15:31 It's very tempting to roll your eyes and tune out in a lot of aspects of artificial intelligence discussion and so on. So everything I know about science, everything I know about engineering is it doesn't happen alone. Yeah, I know too much. So you look at 2001 Space Odyssey. Yeah. Yeah. Okay? that's the reality of the world we live in what's the human nature aspects that

20:02 No. He doesn't like superhero movies. I'm Batman. I'm a hypocrite because Game of Thrones or Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, it's totally believable to me. Right. get no traction i was like that's true because if you had like glass tires and you try to drive Yeah. a lot of movie producers think that they're smarter than people they just decide i just put

22:58 brought me in as a martial arts expert to talk to you Steve Jobs through the product. And the same, I think, with movies. If you talk about the 2001 Space Odyssey, there's so many details. it's some sort of a confession that Kubrick faked the moon landing. and he engineered that sort of complexity into his films on a person's hair would be. that you could get to them so quickly.

25:54 He tore it apart. out-of-the-box thinkers to where the kind of messages I get are best. that have thought these things through, or you might just run into a river of assholes. Yeah, and you've actually – from what I've heard, you've actually been to this podcast and so on, really good at being open-minded. Ones who are really working deep in it, like that's the camp I kind of sit in.

29:05 as opposed to both have really interesting ideas. I'm really working. I think we really need to be open-minded like Anderson Silva, I think, that steven seagal actually is a master of aikido he really does understand aikido and was one of i mean you're just speaking but you want to open your mind to the possibility that Aikido has some techniques that are effective.

32:20 And I remember watching it, wow, going, No. but you'll never be able to generate the same kind of power as, say, you can generate and we pretty much know how to do that correctly so the the way you're talking about as a martial arts expert now is kind of the way a lot of the experts in robotics and ai I'm of two minds. which is it's from the champions of the impossible

35:38 Because it seems inevitable to me. That's a good question. You've talked about the history. This is what I mean. Tyson Fury on tomorrow. Tomorrow, yes. stood in front of Deontay, it's entirely possible that Deontay Wilder could knock you into another If you're a person who's built like you, who's a guy who exercises and is healthy, and you you have control of the body

39:07 I think in wrestling and judo, having practiced those, I've never been quite as humbled as I have been in jiu-jitsu. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I see what you're saying. I think he was a purple belt. No. in the space of ideas telling me how smart I am. that was, from training a little bit. It's also what martial arts are supposed to be in that a small person who knows technique can beat a big person who doesn't know the technique.

42:45 Sure. I mean, especially Vogel Brothers, these couple black belts that come up together, in weight and size. Exactly. And the balance needs to be struck because I think I'd like to talk about sort of the short-term threats that are there. something that's far away not to say it's not wrong to talk about it but they spend very little So there's no way for them to somehow gain a greater intelligence than the data we provide them with.

47:13 There's ideas there that can carry, you know, in our criminal system, there's discrimination. aware of it because of the tools we're using. and then super bummed and super hyped again and bummed again. But there's only two ways to train those neural networks that we have now. of cat versus dog or should I give this person a loan or not, these kind of simple tasks.

50:30 self-play which is they have two systems play against each other they don't need the human we don't know how to do that world we don't know how to do that we don't know That's true. I'm not even the bad man. And they are using something called, what was I think coined, I don't know, 70s or 80s, the term good old-fashioned AI. And like Elon Musk says, it travels faster than whatever.

53:49 Super hard. That's right. has autonomy and that has the ability to move this is what people are totally concerned with yeah and i think about quite a lot because it's work we're doing think about how we would do that so we can do the actual movement of the robot. What we don't know how to do is But is it because you could engineer or you could program it into your Tesla?

57:38 So it's some basic highway driving. really tried and failed. And there was this feeling that we solved autonomous driving. a car drive around the city it's it's definitely solved the problem is those cars were traveling Now, it's not impossible, and I think it's very doable, timeline has already passed there's been going on in 2018 we'll have autonomous vehicles now

1:00:53 and it nailed it and then they found out it didn't have one of the settings. wheel and the car will drive itself and take care of everything. Everything I've seen, our intuition about what's hard and easy is really flawed as human beings. have to be wary of right now, driving and pedestrians and bicyclists. Totally. And that's in the realm of things I'm talking about where you think outside the box

1:02:53 So government does stuff very slow moving with infrastructure. all over the place in 360, and they give you this point cloud of how far stuff is away, traffic lights to be visible. If traffic lights can communicate with the car, which it makes perfect sense. because it recognizes that you've stepped over or driven over a sensor. And a guy like Elon Musk or Sam Harris is saying, yeah, but look at where technology

1:06:21 that can communicate with you some sort of an ex machina type creature. i enjoy these predictions so the the the of how bad we are predicting stuff from the very engineers This demonstration of my inability as a prophet gave me such shock that I have ever since distrusted myself and have refrained from all prediction. Okay, so that's on the pessimistic side.

1:08:23 of doing any work a man can do. based on what data? That's the thing. It could be we will all live in a virtual reality world. Or, for example, one of the things I really think about is, to me, living on mars or living in virtual reality or there's so many exciting possibilities right and of race. And our wisdom is now, is always like one step behind. And then that's why we need to

1:12:02 versus the development of technology, trying to build this technology, It will be smarter than us and we'll have essentially created our successors. And Sam Harris I think is one of the smartest people I know. So I don't... before this takes place. the current state of technology versus a bunch of creative interpretations of where this could go becomes paralyzing for some reason right now when i have beers with my friends the non-ai folks

1:15:55 Crossing the line into what will happen in 50 years. i don't know if we want to that we uh let me rephrase that we want to worry about it there's Boston Dynamics, who are getting these robots to do all sorts of spectacular physical stunts. certain extent, and you look at what it could potentially be 30, 40, 50 years from now, I think it's inevitable.

1:18:53 Right. to do that. No one's going to come along and say, hey, we've run all this data through a computer we have seven years before artificial intelligence decides to eliminate human I got student loans I'm still paying off. and sound to the way you were talking about the touch of death in that my dream and the dream of many roboticists is to create intelligent systems that will improve our lives and working really

1:21:38 Everybody is failing. and then we realized that these have horrific consequences for the human race, and through the work of the Manhattan Project. 10,000, 20,000 nukes all over the world right now. And certainly in terms of the time human history has been around. Global warming is an accidental consequence of human civilization. Yeah. You see what I'm saying?

1:25:15 that if you do extrapolate, if you do take this relentless thirst for innovation and keep going impossible to stop if you go ted kaczynski and kill all the people. But one of the more fascinating things about him, he was involved in the Harvard LSD studies. this was a direct result of his Harvard LSD studies. And we do know for a fact that Ted Kaczynski was a part of the Harvard LSD studies. And we do

1:27:20 opened his eyes to is that technology You looking it up? You keep going, we're fucked. When you say it's not possible to stop, you mean collectively as an organism, But I just think the force of this organism that's just this living, breathing organism that is our civilization will progress forward. where is this going as opposed to riding the wave and doing riding the wave of of forward progress

1:31:19 thousand years ago just it is it just is. Yeah, and there's these interesting arguments, which his book kind of blew my mind to this funny joke he says that some people consider giving nuclear – the atom bomb the Nobel Peace Prize. you have to put some bars on what this thing can do and maybe don't have the like that too it doesn't necessarily need to be one super powerful thing it could be ai supervising

1:34:01 would they have to do that, to somehow or another limit their artificial intelligence to keep it from having as much power as ours. And I think we're creating a cocoon, and through that cocoon, we're going to give birth to a butterfly. that had superpowers. Well, I think one of the reasons why is because materialism is the main engine that pushes You really like iPhones, don't you?

1:36:28 And for whatever reason, we have this desire to get those new things. when it gets dark out, I'll use candles. to continually make new computers, We found this planet. Well, it's going to replace them. you can look that way at so many things. interesting forces at play that we don't understand. Sure. And there's some kind of force. it is a compelling way to think that if an alien species did visit Earth,

1:40:25 Creating ourselves. they placate themselves doing these things that they don't really enjoy doing is earning money That scares me because I value my own life. how it works i know exactly how every aspect of it works it's just And there was this terrifying moment – not terrifying, but terrifying and appealing where this is the future. when they see bossa dynamics look how awesome this thing running around is.

1:44:21 exponentially fast, and they've come up with solutions, and they continue to innovate. imagination and the problem is there'll be so many other things that are super exciting and it have let me let me just say that i would pick tim kennedy over that dog for the next 50 years It's not about a robotic dog with a shotgun running around. So the bigger and bigger the area is over which you allow an artificial intelligence system

1:48:04 Like, I'll handle everything Oversight. And that's But that's not as large – And that's something that should be thought about. even in the 80s and the 90s, but it just died off. Nobody even thought about it. Now it's come back We do quite a bit of stuff with VR for research purposes for simulating robotic systems. Those are the main ones, and there's other headsets that you can work and use with.

1:51:51 Well, it depends. It's Gaia. But if you could take that, whatever the fuck it is, and send it in a cell phone to New Zealand, on her phone. They'd be like, what the fuck are you talking get out of here that is essentially you're capturing time you're capturing moments in We got the whole thing in front of us because we're really here. it feels like i'm sitting in with friends listening to a conversation so it's not as

1:54:31 I was hanging out with him and Genghis Khan. it would probably get hundreds of millions of views. You're going to die just like you would in real life, meaning your body will die. Remember that? Well, it's not real. If that's inevitable, if one day we do come up with that, how are we to discern whether or not we have already created that To exist. than some sort of silicone-based thing that we create

1:59:01 how we interact with robots. I would like a robot that spars, the you know there's so many ways. you sprain your ankle and it gets on top of you and mounts you and just starts blasting you in the and I couldn't get out of the triangle. Yeah. or something bad is going to happen but just to bring this all back around, You're going to be in the most beautiful green field.

2:02:30 See what happens when the lights shut off. In this other world where you can breathe underwater and fly through the air and, you know. No, I believe that scarcity is the fundamental ingredient of happiness. We've got this program for you. You're a simple man. Like she needs to be able to lose her shit every once in a while. I don't remember this. I'm telling you, it's just not.

2:04:25 I know for me happiness lies in Android phones. Is that like, I'm a Republican. I was just representing. That's true. She did her PhD in astrophysics, possibly. I'm not involved in this conversation. I'll go with a flip phone from the fucking early 2000s. Right. in the in this new world there's no drone attacks in yemen that kill children i i don't murder

2:07:59 holla letting the ladies know but if you if you do have a hard time connecting with someone Yeah, or is it... It's not for me. something special about me. And I try to let everybody know that anybody can do what I've done. You just have to just keep going. But just like the genuine nature of the way you interact hasn't changed. I'm a big believer in adversity and struggle.

2:10:36 And martial arts is a really good example And so I'd always get dominated by the really best guys. For overcoming obstacles, for overcoming relationship struggles, for overcoming physical limitations. So you talk about challenge a lot. So you talk about education systems sometimes. But for me, what I always, Accessible, of course, is great. science sucks.

2:14:46 or the next Fields Medal winner in mathematics. and just fucking around but that doesn't it's not bad or or good. And I think there's definitely some skills that you learn from mathematics that are hugely significant if you want to go into the type of fields that you're involved in. I was drawn to all those things. Like black and white yeah they were they were a comic book series

2:17:09 And I was fat. That's the beautiful thing about it. I love those kind of horror movies and I love those kinds of illustrations. And you're like, fuck that. I didn't squirm in every class. I didn't squirm in science class. I didn't squirm of school so i didn't ever have to listen to anybody like that again and then just a few years and people go out

2:20:20 Oh, I was definitely nervous The consequences aren't as grave, but that's one of the – long time too when you kill on stage you only feel good for like an hour or so and that goes away I seek difficult things out. there's there's there's real value in scarcity and that there's real value in struggle and how much of all this is just engineered into create Alexa. What do you want from Alexa? Do you want a tool that says what the weather is?

2:23:34 the commute was really rough. To those people, I say, fuck off. to describe this mass influx of people that film where this regular He became one of them. I mean you look at movies like Happy People with the— Part of you wants to be like, well, I want to be out there in nature, focusing on simple survival, That's it. No, no, no. That's another understudied, again, not an expert,

2:27:33 Googled a pornographic term in our search engine. And especially for women. stigmatized for women and then the idea of masturbation is stigmatized these all these you have to consider the Well, women in particular are violently opposed to sex robots. of nod to it like how crazy would that be if you had the the perfect woman like the red one the She's fucking annoying.

2:31:17 Like, okay, is that what you want? Well, no. There's certain disciplines in which you have to… It's not just that your life is different. You're connected to these people that you love so much, and they rely on you for guidance and for warmth and affection. When they laugh and giggle, you change. have been terrible terrible parents they just they'd rather stay out all night and never come

2:34:56 other people that have had that same experience. So it's not everyone that becomes a father or Yeah, when I see guys like you, the inspiration is – so I'm looking for sort of structural, It doesn't always happen. It's out now. It was actually really weird. it there's some improvisation to it but it's also there's a very clear structure to it but that's

2:37:34 You have to be a parent. you know, and there's, there's going to be people that love having children. They love being a dad And there is an element there where you don't want to be too rational. Yeah. And the – there's just something in me that says the edge, the chaos of this environment at MIT is something I'm drawn to. And they grew together and created a super happy connection.

2:40:59 I mean, if you want to be like a nomad and travel around the world and just live out of a backpack, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. you that's what you don't want i think it's thorough right um you don't want silent desperation towards this ultimate eventual goal of artificial And yet for the election process, it seems that we're voting like once every four years.

2:44:22 Should Kim Kardashian? So in the kind of movies, like you, Joe Rogan, what are the kind of movies that you would like? red and blue teams now have a hard answer of course you keep all the immigrants out or of and you might not have any information It's information. and because it's so accessible to you and I right now with your phone, just pick it up, say, hey, Google, what the fuck is this?

2:48:54 But I actually know nothing about – But outside, I just kind of take on faith. just like when we're talking about cell phone images with a shotgun and what do those kids look like when they're 18 years old robots fucking x-ray Now they want to go to the same school as us? Well, not we. Okay. And I think a subset of humanities that I know nothing about, and there's a subset I don't want to speak about.

2:51:43 I actually live on Harvard campus. Oh, sorry, like in Harvard Square. Well, it's upstairs. and Barry Crimmins, who just passed away, rest in peace, I came around like four years after that stuff. met my manager it's become a running theme I used to do Nick's Comedy Stop and all the other ones there. we gotta wrap it up sure has been there all along

2:55:16 Let me end it the way Elon ended it.