Joe Rogan Experience #1241 — Sam Harris Transcript

Transcript

0:00 Five, four, three, two, one. I was not anticipating the blowback that I received. It was stunning. But what I thought was I was just going to have a conversation with this guy, be fun, apparently people online particularly the people that want to comment about this all they wanted that you're talking like for instance you brought up lewis farrakhan right like how is lewis farrakhan

1:57 So I contacted him and he said he would be more than happy to come back on again and So he's obviously busy. advertising the cash apps and advertiser on my podcast so because the cash apps and advertisers timed differently. I mean, it's an interesting topic because this opens the door to all the So the real missed opportunity for me was just a sheer matter of timing,

5:18 Why are you applying it in this seemingly disparate way? And it seems to skew politically in one direction all the time, right? No, I think it was temporary. But, you know, so I raised it and, you know, he obviously can't know exactly what happened in that case, or at least it would be surprising to me if he knew. No, I should address that. you know, we'll just hide the seams as we go. Now, that virtually never happens, right? And

8:01 I didn't even think about it. many podcasts i think i run low on juice and i'm not as uh i don't know i'm not as engaged or i'm don't know i mean you'd have to you'd have to be inside his head to get that answer yeah i mean he where Twitter's going. at communicating our process. We're not nearly transparent enough. This whole thing is in blowback but then the blowback was accentuated when they found out that he sponsors me right

11:11 The fact that you're, so this is just all very interesting to me because I'm kind of a reluctant And it's just very interesting, the decisions you make or are forced to make and the consequences of it. It dictates many choices down the line, which, I mean, there's a positive and negative. But then we decided all the derogatory comments that we don't touch any we don't we

14:25 depending upon who is watching it and what account it'll be they'll be different sort of yeah they'll god this is kind of boring yeah it just wasn't it wasn't juicy there was nothing he we didn't I don't care what's happening on YouTube, right? So I never see the comments. And whenever I look, it is, as you say, accessible. mean it's got to be younger than than most of of where well first of all i'm not even seeing

16:55 the moment and so i'm not i'm not spectating on you know the feedback on youtube well the feedback You essentially have this on Twitter, get away with more. the cash app is a sponsor because it's we say it this podcast is brought to you by the cash app There's also apparently an emerging conspiracy theory about that Jack was trying to pump up Bitcoin

19:12 what did all he said was that well the cash app sells bitcoin so we talked about bitcoin about all this stuff. But yeah, there's an interesting implication to not taking ads. It's like the PBS model or the NPR model. where am I going to go the ad route or not? And I found that, I mean, I have two I mean, it could have been the Oxford English Dictionary.

22:33 And so I decided to just experiment with a different business model. right? And there's no way in but to pay the subscription. And Netflix could run ads and get more money if they wanted to, belongs on that shelf and that if they want it, they have to subscribe to Netflix. I'm putting more stuff behind a paywall, right? I mean, so that this is, it's not just pure sponsorship of otherwise free content,

25:22 just send us an email and we'll give it to you for free, right yeah i've heard that i was like this guy's crazy i mean it's to hit a paywall and think, I can't get my credit card out again. I'm not going to pay for this. I call you up. You have to secure a venue. There's wardrobe and makeup and set, Again, I'm running on two tracks here. closes the door to any of those aspirations,

29:09 You have to make the decision to buy it and I'm trying to convince you to buy it because it took But they're never saying, how much does it cost to write a book? is asking. When they're donating. When they're donating. And the problem there is they're not to go more and more in the direction of putting stuff behind a paywall. And if people want it,

31:46 So you could either get it from iTunes or whatever, Google Play or Google Podcasts, but I was doing it for fun and I didn't care. My revenue was coming from other sources. I mean, we would get ridiculous and and be really silly using their product you know so word got, and then as the podcast space started expanding, Basically the end of 2009. into advertisement was

34:28 I don't care. they do buy a lot of ads we do have a good relationship with them. But I just feel like the experience of listening to a podcast unbroken is so much better than too hard on him in grilling him about these people that have been censored i hope he doesn't but i left are getting away with a lot of crazy shit so we're gonna we're gonna get into the weeds with

37:08 It's one of the things That are on the I'm starving Or worried about Paying my bills I'm free To do a sense. I have plenty of money. It's not whether or not I'm starving or worried about paying my bills. right? So if Tim is reading an ad for something you know that is totally brand comic who can send up ads i mean it's like i mean i think bill burr does this where he kind of

39:20 I can't do that. You started it, and you're like, let's try this again. I mean, just brutal. you know, we had a, you know, we had, of back and forth. But you're always considering the fact that people are listening to this. It took so long, you forgot what you asked. Like, we had to start drinking. Yeah, I was like, oh, no. the weed came out nobody cared the fact that the ceo of tesla was drunk right like no one cared

43:54 He's not always like that by any stretch. okay, this is sort of the wrong time to be doing this. And so I just felt, you know, What was interesting, he was very different when he first got here versus when the mic came on. I mean, I'm not arguing that you shouldn't be live because it has a massive advantage for you as well. A perfect example of a story where, you know, if you were Liam's friend, you would go, don't tell that one.

46:09 a week looking for a black man to beat up to kill to kill i'd be like oh jesus christ man Yes. Let's take his. Okay. walking around with i think he calls it a kosh, that's he's horrified by the fact that he was in this state of mind, right? Can you imagine, like, I'd be looking for one of them, right? I mean, what this was, at least on his telling, is

52:03 that he has a predisposed that he feels one way or another about black people it's a part of the other tribe. No, but it doesn't suggest that he has a predisposed – of this in the first place right i mean like this is like an amazingly honest and unnecessary But we're so trigger happy in our outrage with respect to anything like that. I mean, it has a lot to do with social media and Twitter in particular. Yeah. There's a – Well, I mean, it's back to Jack. I mean, it has a lot to do with social media and Twitter in particular.

53:41 But I was so off Twitter that I had – there was no temptation for a hot take from me, right? after this person like reinforcing that she's a part of that tribe that she's a part of that left Kara Swisher, and I happen to know she doesn't that was an added bonus for me because that, that norm that I think we should support. It's like, we should play fair even with our enemies, right?

56:51 You know, it was just pure pain. And it might not be a very well thought out opinion, He only writes on Facebook. So I use it as a publishing channel, but I keep threatening in my own mind to just delete the account because I just don't. Twitter coming whatever comes after Twitter and this is one of the things that I, before the podcast, I wanted to really talk to Jack about to get his take on what he thinks is next down the line.

59:25 I called you out of the blue once and it was like – She was angry that somebody FaceTimed her. Only calls. largely as an antidote to all of the stuff we're talking about. It's like, we've got this, you know it's just i mean i have to i have to do both because there's a lot of important things No, they come after me for everything. No. But the positive is what I like.

1:03:38 And even if he's dancing in Pier Wedding, I should have went back to, okay, why is Kathy Griffin on your platform? No, I know. that day it's not like they're these mega kids they're probably just being assholes right they're Right, exactly. mean just like the the the shots of his face with the tweets that said you know this is what white johnson was the only time i voted independent or whatever the fuck he was libertarian right

1:06:35 and a willingness to wonder whether or not I'm wrong that isn't mirrored if you go far enough And it's, yeah, it's very, I mean, I'm just, career closely but it just seems like she's not making the right noises on things like syria and elizabeth warren's fucked now she's the most recent one yeah she's gone the most recent one Well, the fact that she released the data and the data is so clear.

1:09:16 who can stand outside that circular I think identity politics is really going to be bad for us against Trump because so much of the country, I mean, the crucial sliver of the country, I mean, you just have to ask Yeah. But that's not the story about why Trump got elected. You've got the consequences of trade and immigration. let's just take immigration as the narrow case, you either think you should be able to know who's

1:13:56 extreme voices. Like the guys in Charlottesville with their tiki torches, they don't look like they represent I certainly didn't say it on a previous podcast with you. Yeah, but he used the N-word in this meeting, right? saying the r word right like using the r word is like using the n word around black people and was her take on it well she was she was basically i mean she was playing the other side of the net

1:18:15 And because we don't provide litter boxes in the bathroom, People are having to navigate. This was a big deal at Google. and they've got different interests, right? that one writer, I was reading a story about a woman who's on some sort of an LBGT panel, and she's a part of some group, and she was kicked out of it by a man who identifies as a lesbian, and he has a penis.

1:21:22 It's like, I'm a man. because when he writes these articles, I can say it because I can't be fired. I don't know if we, maybe you and I have I mean, he was just, you know, he was working very hard to become an enemy. Yeah, well, I missed the details there, you remember when the daniel tosh rape controversy like uh do you remember this i know who taught

1:24:35 And he goes, wouldn't it be funny if someone just raped her? fuck is that rape culture like he's he's clearly making a joke about something she said that was he's funny and you know and jamie and i had this little Tit for tat about it But he's very All day Or takedown. I mean, I try to communicate with people the same way online as I would if they were right in front of me.

1:26:47 But the only difference is road rage, you know, there's like a physiological reason for road rage. when somebody puts their foot in their mouth for having dressed up, you know blackface or in a in a hood they admit admit they committed and they're rehabilitated and we and these are these are And for avowed racist motives, I believe, sort of you know pr moment he has had since or how he's apologized for it or but i mean that was a

1:30:13 racist back then i never did it but i don't know if that's racist like if you had a bunch of gold Let's say you were racist, right? So, but what is the, and intelligible account of And, or there's, you know, the most cynical possible interpretation of your apology. that we can reboot from here I mean, it would have to happen to them, Well, I mean, mean what we're the game

1:34:02 hostage video apology just like you know just like i am so, full-blown hostage video apology. Just like, you know, just like, I am so fucking sorry. Get the fuck out of here. I would hope that we're having some kind of an impact on it, media, I think is flavored by two things one the immediacy of it the fact that and they get in trouble like i remember there was a guy on 4chan who was, you know, who would say a bunch of fucked up things like a lot of people do.

1:37:03 Did you hear about the professor at an academic conference And it's been now at least a month or so since I heard the story. And so... Well, you and I don't teach, and we're not in a university, that they've been programmed to think that everybody is supposed to behave. Call-out culture, too. I mean, Jordan goes on about this. And they're like, get the fuck out of here.

1:40:19 massive social pressure against those kinds of noxious political commitments. But if someone misspeaks, So, okay, we'll walk this back. he was about to say, Which is worse, right? goldberg you know trying to just just pull him back you know from the lions and um it should be I think it was a real concern that his, He was, and he's been on Norm's reaction. And he wanted to come on my

1:44:19 The problem is that they wouldn't even let him attempt to talk your way out of it because I think they realize that Norm's a maniac. Fucking terrible for you. We land at LAX On the way out the door But that's There are spectrums we don't even know about. people are in a position to be able to do it i mean you know like you know netflix netflix doesn't

1:47:11 them to be this person right now, and that a lot of us are operating on this really bizarre he was 17 that wasn't a crime, and you're not exactly sure what happened? No one created themselves. to be a, you know, frankly, demoralizing picture, right? They think, well, okay, well, you're change, I mean, if I say something that changes your view on anything, that's not evidence of free will.

1:50:34 It's like if there's a hurricane blowing outside, we don't respond to it the same way we would respond to, you know, Al-Qaeda dropping a bomb on us, right? them, right? I mean, we would, you know, we would nullify them. But the feeling we have in both railroad crane, I think back in the 20s, right, like, the circus elephant escaped, and it ran, you know, it rampaged through the streets, and it trampled, you know, a few people.

1:52:48 And it gives us a kind of just an inability to take stock of all the variables that are actually guiding human behavior and react to them and mitigate them and disincentivize them intelligently. And the moment you have, I mean, I may have brought this up last time we spoke about free will, That we can fix. Because what will happen is you'll give people the pill and they'll say, fuck, I can't believe

1:55:41 That's the tower shooter guy? They were the four-year-old who was destined to become this terrible person. the picture doesn't help right it's just it's the randomness is just you know somebody's in Well, if there is, let's do that without all the judgment wouldn't it be amazing if that's how we Thank you for expressing yourself in a way that maybe other people

1:58:54 and you are the product of all of your experiences. Yeah, I mean, the thing about the Liam Neeson incident, which I find so interesting, is But the instrumental violence piece, I don't understand. instrumental violence like but when you when you try to run that software on my brain that just to the disclosure. is someone with a lot to lose should be able to say you know how ugly a human mind can be? This is an experience I had,

2:03:07 But he's getting this gigantic signal from a huge number of people. and famous and there's got to be a bunch of jealousy that's attached to that and a bunch She was skiing. So it's like, Jesus Christ, this guy. But again, take it full circle. Fuck this guy. he got all of his love and so he became this guy and one of the things that i said to him i said

2:06:34 Thinking about it all the time. You have a different way of looking at the world because this is also in the recipes. much love you've never gotten love in your life you've never gotten positive feedback and you're all that crazy shit that he did. So it sounds like new age, you know, specious nonsense to many people. Well, those, they've even changed and evolved over the last decade or so.

2:09:50 to be spending more time on it because it's the locus of so much of the fragmentation in our lives You're not continuing to have a conversation with yourself about all the reasons why you should be angry or you should attack this person. And you just become until you can actually get out of the thoughts and just pay attention to, in this case, a negative emotion, you have zero choice.

2:12:25 life and i feel this initial you know contraction and i can decide how long i want to feel that way My wife actually does that. is just basic awareness is just acting out something, It radiates decency. as a process, that is something that I think we could teach kids much earlier, and then we would I mean, and almost no one really understands what life is like to be a famous 20-year-old

2:16:09 And what we were talking about earlier about who you are now versus who you were 20, 30 years ago, when you meet Mike Tyson now, Mike Tyson is the sweetest, nicest, friendliest that that i spent a lot of time in when you're training in martial arts and seeing the the world Touch. Karate, yeah. the ego fear of, you know, with this guy right he's the best boxer on earth at that moment it's it's that he's he's got way

2:18:59 a certain level that you could do that to an untrained person within its frame you are pressure testing yeah jujitsu people are so friendly and i think that's one of the reasons why they're so friendly a human being is complicated. To be things. Like you were talking about Liam Neeson, his wife falling down and hitting her head. or it's a legit self-defense claim,

2:21:24 and I had two people comment, ask questions as well. If that's not your MO, there are people who, you know, I mean, there are extreme cases. There are, there are women and no one's around you punch someone and they they get knocked out and they die and you say I mean, you should absolutely, without a doubt, avoid violence at all costs. It's very important.

2:24:30 Especially if you're walking around with a gun, you realize what the problem of, you're pulling out your gun and then it's a decision whether to kill but, you know, for all the firearm training I mean, they used to be cops, but now they don't even feel any burden to police. have, is this sort of, this, this valley where your ego concerns are not worked out.

2:26:57 could feel that backing down, And people get into it all the time. yeah i've been doing martial arts my whole whole life and i'm terrified of fights i see fights And you had to know what to do with your genes. But there are many people who get on just because they want to prove they're not racist, right? then they look to, they just kind of look to check for witnesses, right?

2:30:16 But people are, you know, people are very dogmatically being kind of trained to ignore those kinds of intuitions. I mean, what people do with their eyes is a major variable in just how we feel that, you know, the relationship is going. reasons why this is so. There's certain, like, there's like a twitchiness to them, I mean, just how tuned up they are.

2:32:53 And again, we pick up on a lot of this stuff without consciously being aware of what's going it's it's not and what and ai eventually will be if it is not there already will be much better That's a micro-aggression. Yeah, microaggressions, it's weird that that's actually accepted, you could go back to their college days and remember when they said something.

2:35:05 the the expression like right and the way that she's describing it like as if this evil character you know, they're not even aware and everything that followed. Yeah. But he was trying to get nuclear weapons in Pakistan into the hands of the worst possible theocrats, right? this is how powerful you are, Joe Rogan, And it's actually, to come back to that original point, here's someone who was, whose life was purposed toward

2:39:15 about who you are currently you just want an excuse for for to be relieved except it's so honestly. still, But if she was black Like, what if Oprah said it? Yeah. were using the n-word i mean the problem the thing that was kind of dishonest about the the Like, you're the only white guy I know who... Yeah. It's awesome and kept going. Thanks, man.