Joe Rogan Experience #1246 — Pot Debate - Alex Berenson & Dr. Michael Hart Transcript

Transcript

0:00 two one and we're live ladies and gentlemen uh or gentlemen you two ladies and gentlemen Then I became a spy novelist. particularly edibles and I don't I want to say I know anybody who had psychotic identify that there's risks and there's benefits to it yes and and some people are definitely I think there's great benefits in terms of relieving pressure,

3:22 i i suspect you know there are people who said don't go on with Joe. He's just going to, you know, he's going to try to eat you alive. And especially, it'll be two on one. I told them the truth. First of all, I'll go on with anybody. And I'm glad you had me on or you're having me on because, you know, Bill Maher, he won't have me on. He's afraid to talk to me about this.

4:02 They said, we don't believe in the conclusions of the book. Okay, you don't believe in the conclusions of the book? THC has been shown to reduce the nausea associated with chemotherapy. But I don't think if you look sort of on a population level basis, they're less than alcohol. effects of alcohol, right? Essentially liver damage, either chronic liver damage, you get

6:20 They said, okay, that's an alcohol associated death. I suspect it will be in the 10,000 to 20,000 range. If you're testing people and they test positive for marijuana um i agree alcohol is a physically toxic substance cannabis is a neurotoxin for a lot of people but And you could also say that with some people, the wake Waken bakers that you know seem to be wasting their lives away and that's like

8:50 Because people who use high CBD every day, as we know, And of course, that's not good for someone who doesn't want to gain weight. Those are the main ones that people know about. they don't need to go to him to get intoxicated right so people so you're seeing a population as they come in, they say, I don't want to get high. evidence is something that we should consider because it is so strong. Alex, let me ask you this. Why don't you consider

12:21 Most of the time, in reality, these doctors are not giving you a the marijuana policy project for a long time um for the book and he and he acknowledged you know Because there's many medicines that have horrific side effects. It's FDA-approved for that reason. on you a little bit cbd has been shown to reduce seizures in in children with epilepsy it's it's

14:34 She's never had a seizure since. the best way to know is you give the real medicine that showed the efficacy of marijuana and the safety of it and those were all squashed and you the CBD, the minimal amount of CBD in marijuana? No, I think that, again, there's been a lot of Okay. So, Alex, I mean, you're throwing stating that. But if you look at the research, I mean, specifically, if you look at specific

17:33 It's a subset of breast cancer. engineering report, you know, they said that cancer was, was great for, uh, chemotherapy oh, there's nothing I can do for you. that when patients are given cannabis it can reduce their symptoms of PTSD there's of anandamide so which is the naturally occurring yes which is which is naturally occurring in the you know, if I have someone who is not doing very well, you know, they've been on a bunch of

21:06 your patients and to hear what your patients tell me. And, you know, the things that my patients they're for insomnia or they're for something else. But when we look at like a study that says And during prohibition, you could actually get a doctor's note for alcohol as a medicine. I know the safe alcohol drinking guidelines are 14 drinks a week for men

23:09 Okay. trials have been done, and a lot of them have been done, Joe, a lot of them have been done, lot of flaws in it. And the other thing is that you need to look at someone who Right. and when you take a certain amount every single day it can reduce your symptoms and sometimes So you admit it's medicine? And this came up in the book, too. Her job is to evaluate people, not so much to treat people.

27:22 of doctors, that's not good enough. So you need to step back. And I think, I think, you know, this, this epidemiologist in Britain, in response in the recent new york times editorial on cannabis and as a committee member. No, I didn't cite her. So she said, in response to the recent New York Times editorial on cannabis and as a committee member on NASM, which is that committee and cannabinoids report, we did not conclude that cannabis causes

29:06 books or when we're giving out information you know you want to do it from a balanced approach of 25 why they decide that age so 25 basically is when your your brain yeah it's it's fully of a conservative ish, ish age, but you's definitely kind of a conservative-ish age. but I think that we should have emphasized that it also said this. What I wrote in that New York Times op-ed, what I wrote in the book,

31:42 And actually, suicide attempts at a three and a half to one rate. expect all the other members to potentially come out with out with that as well why not well some people if i did something wrong uh, that back your, in individuals with psychotic disorders, right? why did you leave out that part? Well, my book presents, it makes a good idea for somebody with an active psychotic disorder to use CGC. Why did you leave out that part?

34:25 I think that's a really great question. I say in the introduction of the book and in the conclusion of the book? I think that's a really great question. again in 2014 and 15 and 16, these are the cases that I'm seeing. These are the terrible things Eventually, she got tired of me yapping back at her, and she said, why don't you go read the studies yourself?

36:24 that you would prescribe to someone no again you need to think about how the fda is looking at medicine and what i read and maybe you could help me on this yeah was that it's the exact same number not equal causation right dr i think you got to tell them that's not true Tell me what that means The range for schizophrenia use in the united states schizophrenia rates have remained the same so i have to push back really

39:16 with schizophrenia. And then in response to that, the director of the NIMH said, And in Denmark and Finland, that there's no evidence or psychosis rates in the US. Absolutely. That's a lot. Increased in the 90s. So what I'm saying to you is we don't know. And then, can I get you to clarify it? But you say to people, did you have depression so bad that you couldn't get out of bed?

43:27 And if you look at kids 12 to 17, Oh, sure. it was actually more Haidt than Yuval Haradi. but definitely both is that when you compare yourself to someone else and you know people you know obviously that we've done that you know all all humans have done that you know and they're comparing themselves. And, you know, a lot of kids do have, do have to, never had to deal with growing up.

46:36 right so teen use you know would would classify as part of that category so you know in colorado I hope that people don't move on to or do something harsher because they don't see pot as cool anymore. They have fewer abortions. mostly hold on a second more so than use, and then that's a fact. You're discounting these young girls that are committing suicide to fit your statistics

48:59 And it's an alarming increase directly correlating with the increase in use of social media. But they're more likely to commit suicide. saying to you is that there's a clear increase in psychological distress in kids and young adults never seen before i would totally agree with that but i don't think that you can say based on the I can tell you is proven is that kids today, I'm talking about teens, 12 to 17, have less psychological distress by all these measures. I'm talking about their actual behaviors are better,

51:37 Let's look at the numbers. So, okay, I mean, this is what I'm saying. Yeah, I don't know what the actual facts are. amongst men in their 50s and then they start to feel useless yeah yeah and especially if they Okay. severe depression but don't commit suicide that's the real factor because this is what hate directly And I think that, too, it leads people to suicidal ideations and depression and anxiety.

54:44 It's the worst thing that suicide attempts in people once they get to 18 to 30 okay so it could possibly be a factor what's we do not think high THC cannabis is good for people in that age category. increase suicidal ideations that's been shown i I mean, it's written right on the package. You're talking about high potency THC in adolescence. Especially alcohol.

58:35 i think that's crazy i think you you have to really be careful with anything that severely I don't think all of them do. I'm worried about them using Xanax. they're trying to study for tests when they're trying to take their sats when they're trying to to tell someone oh you're 14 years old you have major depressive disorder you're going to take And that's kind of how I got my start on social media is through diet and exercise.

1:01:23 But you have relatively young kids, I know. Yes. know yes and so do i and boy they love the devices i mean i mean we have to fight and we And look, it's not entirely negative. yeah yeah but if you have like uh I don't know, is it Nintendo Wii can use your phone shows how you're moving. that they can but they don't understand the that they can. But don't you think that's always been part of high school?

1:03:30 You know, look at her with her fat face lol and then those little 12 year olds like oh that is that's a severe severe factor that no one had to consider before yes and it makes you almost not well i don't listen this is why i don't know about that severe anxiety lack of sleep um depression So, okay, on the one hand, that's a lot of people. to break people are depressed all over the place. Depressed, yes.

1:06:02 I'm just thinking, that person just tell a bunch of people that like they're on an anti-psychotic right well it's weird that That is insane. So it's 14th. an add-on antidepressant for some people. of the day or during the day By the way, I think giving people handheld devices that are inherently addictive where they can bet on sports every 15 seconds is a super bad idea.

1:08:34 psychosis is a different thing okay okay i think we're we are though discussing overall mental and and all these he had like severe consequences i think that the the human beings we vary so much biologically that to just make crazy and like whoa but you sort of know that and you sort of know how long it's going to take to clear your body. But then if you're a tolerant user, you can use 200 milligrams in a day that's 80 drinks yes it's a

1:11:00 There's only upsides. talking about cognitive benefits for people with psychotic episodes and that you're only focusing and I'm trying to you know somehow or another Right. When you tell the whole truth, I completely agree with that. That's just not true. I'm sad that on this trip to LA, I didn't get to go to a poker room. It doesn't mean that gambling should be illegal.

1:14:47 But that's the message that we should be putting out there, right? you know, encountered really difficult obstacles in their life. And some people have, you know, a vet in my office, a lot of the times they'll be leaving their home like five to 10 days a month. store, just like pick up a few things. in the entourage effect and using all of the cannabinoids. So I don't use that that much,

1:17:21 what it can do to people. very safe and very effective for a bunch of different disorders, You obviously know a lot of users. what it's it's very interesting how your tolerance is radically reduced. Like, I'll smoke pot at the end of that month, and I'm like, holy shit. Okay, if you and me were together last night night and I gave you a hit of my joint,

1:19:26 there's a video of him giving this other comedian, I heard that podcast. Well, I think there's a real argument to be made, particularly with him. back and get the study um but i mean these people are using i'm pretty sure it was like close to Second point I was gonna I was gonna make on that too though was um she's never increased her dose now she's just used the same amount of cbd for the last five

1:22:31 I was doing the radio interview on the Acela from D.C. to New York last month. She said, and a friend of mine said to me, let's do an edible. But she said, the worst part was it took me weeks, weeks for the anxiety to fade. And it's really a psychedelic. A fucking bucket of acid And I think I live A pretty blessed life And I know this sounds crazy, but I think with me, it gives me, and I think I live a pretty blessed life.

1:24:32 it allows me to put myself examine all of my behavior in the darkest recesses of my mind my i probably should have done things a little bit different you know like that happens to people my wife is poisoning me no no no joke no joke like this is funny when you're schizophrenic and They may need to go to. them to certain cannabis disorders, right? The MAPK-14 is roughly about 8% is what we're seeing.

1:27:48 Um, so if we can identify, you know, the, the people who are at risk, then we can maybe, I think that it should be held to the same standard as any other medicine. I mean, there do seem to be some people who just, it breaks really fast. have these terrible breaks, who've gone completely off the rails. the last six years trying to save their son, and they have failed. She told me that they've spent more than half a million dollars.

1:30:44 That's a good question. he's he's gone he's he's on the streets of houston she doesn't know where he is and i'll tell you But anyway. the second worst thing. The worst thing that can happen is your son, the college graduate, I don't think there's any denying't there's no question about that but i think it's also possible that guy would have gotten schizophrenia anyway look it's possible but he was sort of at the outer edge of the window

1:33:28 They drop out of school. It is. that if i were a researcher in schizophrenia i would be looking at the have are not really that effective yes right so you? So CBD should definitely be utilized for people who have psychosis and schizophrenia. But you can't deny that there's other people, well-documented, that have taken LSD, that have taken psilocybin and taken them in large doses and gone yes and

1:36:18 picture right so you know does your book have some truth in it yes of course it does but does it tell the whole truth absolutely not right and that's the message that you know, does your book have some truth in it? Yes, of course it does. But does it tell the whole truth? Who are these folks? used in mexico at that time was in really marginalized environments.

1:37:51 in india were were actually attributed to alcohol or opiates or other things and then the other And then for someone to only have, you know know just to pick out the part that you know really psychiatric hospitals, sort of very primitive psychiatric hospitals. And they were And this really fascinating doctor named George Francis William Ewins wrote a book in 1908.

1:40:59 yeah right and yeah it's not the same thing though well but yeah you know why peanuts kill you that's yeah it's more dangerous so at least like 7 600 a year yeah people die from peanuts so yeah i think I mean, there's multiple studies that show that marijuana laws are not associated with think that someone's out to get you and they're not absolutely i mean the the what are the numbers

1:42:56 And fortunately, healthy people don't commit murder that often. But 50% of the people who were using cannabis and had psychosis So violence was strongly associated with the history of polysubstance abuse, strongly Just let me finish, Alex. Polysubstance means multiple substances, And more broadly, it's associated with violence in the general population in large studies, in studies of high school students and bullying, in studies of people who were vacationing in Ibiza, in studies of young men in china and the uk there are big studies

1:46:36 behavior basically yes it's a clinic there's no blood test you can't do a brain scan it's basically I mean, you're just asking someone a series of questions. Because you could easily say that almost everyone has some type of mental illness. I mean, six out of those seven are negative, right? Like if you feel one of these emotions, health diagnosis because if things just keep you know going the way they are you know what's by

1:49:27 I know. And it doesn't sync with how they've experienced cannabis use, right? No, Newfoundland is how you say it. New research published online in advance of print of the journal Psychological Medicine So I think that's a fairly good summary of the issues. It causes fights, right? you're going to get in a fight and it actually might enhance your conversation social lubricant

1:53:24 Right. you gotta let me finish you gotta let me finish you gotta let me finish okay go ahead alex um so which is again, a family member. country. And it looks like people with sort of broader, more broadly defined psychosis, again, more likely to commit violence if you add some sort of psych medication whether it's marijuana we don't know whether or not he would have become a schizophrenic and exhibited those symptoms without the marijuana.

1:57:10 And they're right. Yeah, I also have a personal friend, and I really didn't think about this guy, but there's another personal friend that I know that is a martial arts instructor that had a psychotic break he became schizophrenic and he's a regular marijuana user and the people And this was not the case before. I hope he's okay. They could. Why are they bad, though?

1:59:40 violent crime but with people that are schizophrenic or people where it triggers schizophrenia it could potentially induce violent crime my friend did not get violent although he murders and ag assaults violent crime um are up substantially in those states and substantially increase in population yeah so so and that's part of the reason why trump is actually not really

2:01:58 violence and he thinks that the reason that there was an increase in the murder rate particularly Well, I mean, that is one thing that has been shown to, But how, So he feels that, you know, the washington and increased okay so he feels that the increased violent crime and marijuana legalization. I was going to say that too, but they give all of their links right here if you'd like to. So again, my data. What are these? There's a lot i was gonna say that too but they're they give all of their their sources right here if you'd like to so again what are these do you are you a lot of

2:04:46 There are other possibilities. to minnesota to other states there's crime associated with that but what i am saying is The FBI homicide numbers. You're picking one state for one year. But the whole country is similar? Is it a similar increase a similar increase that's what i'm trying to show yes if i'm trying to show He used a data set that is not the standard data set to report murder rates.

2:07:44 Cops are not smoking when they're on patrol, I hope. Cannabis, the four cannabis legal states on a per capita basis, crime murders rose 31% on a per capita basis in those four states over the 2013, 2017 period. Then I think MERS went up more in Washington. you know, paranoia and psychosis, you'd sort of expect the gap to increase over time. And that's

2:09:38 But still, you know, one-fifth. I think one of the things that we're dealing with had an edible and became suicidal and was fucked up for weeks that is very confident very articulate You're clearly pretty psychiatrically healthy. And you probably also too, And, you know, you have this big, you know, three hour podcast. And then at the end of it, it people just because I hate when you know you have

2:12:00 I mean, I find it so fascinating that now when you think back through your life, you've thought of somebody who was affected. I'll explain to you more off air so I don't have to out this guy. How old exactly? Late 20s, 20, you know. That old was he? He's in his 20s. Late 20s? How old exactly? below 18 is worse than say below 25. because you accelerate that process you don't get those good neural connections and then you know

2:14:17 they do stay away from cannabis yeah and i mean especially that's like i read these you know these like yeah a couple of my friends even talked about you know There's a lot of variables. blanket description of it as being a positive influence and that it's a good thing for people know and and that it's a really i've obviously i've heard from a lot of people who used heavily

2:17:18 I'll give you the shit to put Elon on the moon. And awareness to a lot of things that you're putting off in the back of your head. You can't really, You're going to freak out about that. Maybe you were upset about something else when you ran into them. crazy and this this is something that i think we should consider when we're discussing almost any

2:19:57 after one or two minutes, they have any type of change in their, um, in their they probably would have a freak out. They probably would have a bad experience. Generally, Let's acknowledge that a lot of people use this drug. And she basically wouldn't agree. is, right? I understand your perspective, I understand why We've really covered the full gamut, right?

2:24:15 trigger without it maybe if they just became a long distance runner and they would have lived body yes yeah what one thing though too you know i noted in your book, Alex, is that you said that you didn't think cannabis a lot of folks feel though that that's a pen in you know in defensive that that's just a He had an injury. And then also to, you know, you want to look at it from a clinical perspective, right?

2:27:28 And I mean, you look at all these clinics, like you look at like methadone clinics. I mean, what are they doing? But I understand though that, you know, sometimes life is hard. Sometimes things hit you. you know, we can guys come in to me before that have been really, really depressed. And for men, having low testosterone is horrible. respect. but it's not going to, you know, substantially drop them.

2:30:52 That is, that is, that is not, that is not right. And so eventually maybe you decide to try one of those other drugs. They use, they're going to use cannabis, they're going to gamble, they're going to, and cannabis between cannabis use and initiating opioid use they found no compelling evidence to support the gateway drug theory so so again but that's the people that you quoted in your book so

2:33:25 reasons to believe that's a really bad idea. First of all, cannabis, if you actually need to be using opioids three years later. Okay. And that just intuitively makes sense to me. I agree. are deluding themselves. there's a special place in hell I have to use other tools. every single night I go to bed, I killed zero people. I know that, right? So that's really,

2:36:57 know, admirable and a lot of things like researchers say, you know, are quite admirable as well. I think that, you know, using cannabis is a really effective tool for try some some cannabis right so it's just that that's the very first one there so if we so you to try cocaine afterwards. did not differ significantly from the probability of of starting with other illicit drugs so it's

2:40:09 You know, I don't know how many of your viewers have teenage kids or, you know, it's probably more likely to be teenage kids than to have teenage kids. The one thing that really worries me, if we're talking about gateway drugs, is that Juul and vaping are really a gateway to THC vaping. vaping and THC vaping going on right now. And that, I think, and we're talking about 15, 16,

2:41:39 within that too in the same study they actually found that um people who used CBD and were on chemotherapeutics Yeah. People who tested, I know we talked about correlation causation, would have bring it up but it's 11.5 11.5 compared to 2.4 percent um and again cbd yes and there's So, you know, THC. And then CBD has also been shown to be that it may actually reverse.

2:44:55 It's very, very early. Also, too, the high-fat diet thing, I'm looking at everything treatment. And I am absolutely not saying that you as a clinician shouldn't do that, especially something that I thought was so well put, which is the reason why people want cannabis to work okay um listen i think we covered everything it's a it's a complicated subject

2:47:49 Thank you so much. And Alex, your book is Tell Your Children. All right.