Joe Rogan Experience #1274 — Nicholas Christakis Transcript

Transcript

0:00 Gay folks took over the rainbow. It's really good to meet you, too. Conflicting needs. And so around the country, there was a lot of heat about this. And I happened to walk into a propeller myself and wound up in some challenging It's my job to be a teacher, and I have taken responsibility for teaching young people. about the world. So I'm trying to be balanced about it just it's one thing that happened i did my best it's in the past let

3:25 self-indulgent when they know that they have this platform and they have someone who is in a But this is one of the ironies. you're still learning. you're not a fully formed thing yet. felt horrified watching that that you were subjected to that when you're being very reasonable and also So what Erica was saying was not that necessarily the – she was not taking a position on any

6:25 You're smart. prior to that event, including an article in the New York Times about these Halloween costume Well, who should adjudicate that? And the other person said, oh, I understand, or I don't understand, I reject that reason, and sort of buy into a kind of commitment to free other, grant good faith, listen carefully, and the stronger person would decide what's right. We could vote. It doesn't seem quite right either.

11:05 actually. Now, some people will think that religion is a way to truth, right? They think And there's more I can talk about. Yes. Yes. Which is nuts. I have a friend. Whoa. Yes. Okay. Yeah, you can give away one of your kidneys. you also can't sell your blood in the united states there's a reason for that yes uh and that's But the point is, the point is-

15:25 but the point is we can learn there is some wisdom almost anywhere right yes and the problem comes I'm just joking around. should decide i get all that but we already accept that there's some things that we agree on that we Yes. Yeah. So, there are certain foundational elements of our civilization, of our society, which are crucial to our well-being.

17:33 We could vote, which is sort of what we're doing. and you get radicalized. They don't have a greater understanding of the science involved. That is to say you could get on a cruise and sail to the edge of the earth and you would find a wall of ice there, Antarctica. No, I'm not. And that there's like lights up there Yeah. if you're a dummy if you listen to those you go like wow this guy's making a lot of sense he's not

20:48 this which then does that which then does that they lay out a kind of causal chain which is false And often that occurs near to an occurrence of some other rare condition. And there's also, you know, if it's one out of a million and you have 300 million people. And you're like, holy shit. And a serious problem that scientists have labored for untold decades to try to cure.

23:01 Yes, like the sign full and you die from die from it yes people have it's actually gone Anyway, I'm going to say most. So I became very interested in my lab and trying to understand the deep origins of friendship. Teaching is another crazy thing. your hand in the fire. You pay all the price, but I gain most of the knowledge. It's almost as good. the animal kingdom, where one animal sets out to teach another animal something.

26:47 No, and here's the thing. that must outweigh the costs. My living, us living as a group. So, all this attention to the ways in on every single patch of land that's occupiable in fact you're you're exactly right the argument They lose their supplies. shape the structure and function of our minds, our behaviors, whether you're risk-averse, cruel, but actually monarchs for thousands of years have contemplated this experiment.

31:13 And one chapter is devoted to looking at shipwrecks, groups of men typically, but sometimes men and women, who between 1500 and 1900, there were 9,000 shipwrecks. excavations of those wrecks where they had been excavated and um and try to understand what kind of society did these isolated crews actually wind up making and there were some amazing stories that

33:00 And a ship was sent to go find the men. No. Did they starve to death? In 1846 in the South Auckland Islands, why everyone on the grafton crew survives and 16 of the 19 men on the uh on the inverco crew die I look at the Pitcairn, the mutiny on the bounty. I look at the Shackleton expedition, I mean, there's totalitarian societies. To me, this is like you and I are sitting on a plane and we look at a hill that's 300 feet and 900 feet and we say those are very different hills.

37:39 These are fundamental common principles shared by everyone, even though there's also a lot of variation. Two, they are very threatened by the institution of the family. And in order to do that, you can go to one can have a commitment to this higher group. And that's what totalitarian states also face the same dilemma. A little bit. Oh, I read about that.

40:54 people and chaos but i am absolutely fascinated by those types of environments where people do Yes. No, please. I mean, and what's really interesting to me is the last time someone did this as a country, as far as I know, is the United States. And many other countries are very xenophobic. I mean, you can, but it's extremely difficult and rare. and all you need to do to be an american is to um buy into a commitment to constitutional

43:43 You can't reinvent yourself quite that way, to my knowledge, in any other colony or country. And Canada certainly doesn't. And I think there are, you know, then this ties in with a whole set of ideas about American exceptionalism. whatever there's there's room for all these weird opinions yes they might not be correct and they to European countries that are tiny, Spain, for example, I mean, it's not tiny, but it's tiny compared to us.

46:47 Other ground rules are that we are committed to open expression. He might. Yeah, the benevolent dictator idea is, I really wish there was a strong man that would come down and fix it. us what to do and fix the situation, I think is undemocratic in the end. They can hurt your feelings. We know who. You know? Well, if it's secret, you don't know it. The idea of silencing people from speaking that somehow know that this is going to help.

50:50 There's a Tatchell, Peter Tatchell, there's a gay rights activist in England who, you know, went to prison for his rights, So when we prevent them, the harm we're causing is not that I'm silencing you, been the argument for why trump became president in the first place is that people were were tired What were you saying? of creating a free and open society

53:42 Yeah, because open communication is so critical. It's part of being a person. and I don't think that's appreciated enough. I don't even want to get any disagreement from But it's wrong and it's harmful and it's actually harmful to you to do that. we like to think they are well that's exactly what i argue at blueprint that there's such you know about in blueprint at length you know like i i uh you know i just i think it's i think there's a

57:14 Do you know like how, like the Western aesthetic for pottery is like these perfectly symmetrical, I forgot. the world better. You know, that's one of the cool things about travel, right? People can live like this. This is not a crazy thing after all. They chill it. From the beginning. Yes, that's right. It's terrible for you. I mean, come on, man. I love it so bad.

1:01:16 what if you really want to indulge yeah and you like chicken yeah roscoe's is that here in la i On a Sunday. And butter. Yeah. And the chicken is fried? You mean you choose to put it on there yes perfectly it's this is a damn delicious okay i'm gonna open my mind you're from another That's not even the Colonel Promotion or something That waffles and chicken tastes like cat litter compared to Roscoe's.

1:02:38 The collard greens. I'm sure Sweet Chick is good Okay I'll have a look Maybe I'll be back though Oh man it's good Alright maybe I'll try that It's so good weeks. Just shoot over there right after the show. All right. Maybe I'll go there for lunch. Go to one on Gowart. Okay. No. So you became addicted. have nothing to do man because you're going into a food coma son anyway um how do we get to that

1:04:19 I really enjoyed their style of cooking and their kind of food. Fucking believe It's both I think So you get to Some people say that. Yeah. Three. I think it's because boys drive you to your fucking grave because they're so goddamn crazy. It can be. About 95% of the violence and murders are committed by male chimpanzees, and most of the victims are males.

1:07:40 use culture for that purpose. There's an argument in the book that we humans have domesticated ourselves. So, if you look at, if you compare dogs to wolves and domesticated cats The animals from which they evolved didn't have those – that kind of splotchiness. And they become much more peaceful. If you compare human beings, So these domesticated animals will have sex even when it's not time to reproduce.

1:09:50 we lose a lot of the traits that physical and psychological traits associated with violence. weeding out those people. to regular chimps yes but they're not the same species they also have homosexual sex even in human societies, they've looked, for instance, there's a study I talk about in the book Because they were studying baboons in Africa that would eat from human garbage, and a bunch of them got sick and died.

1:13:13 No, I think you have the – yes. Peaceful, yeah. You just reproduce the small ones. they he's the best they just bark all the time no he doesn't bark that much he barks a little bit most chilled out dog i've ever had in my life he was a giant dog he's 140 pounds but he you could You see it like, okay, this is not, I't do this this is this comes from me yes there's certain

1:16:07 How much do you think gets passed down through genetics in terms of inclinations? So there's a kind of innateness to many of our qualities and you can shape them. There's no way you could train me, I don't think, to be a musician. and I have two adopted siblings. And so you can see. You can see the play of genes. Almost in every single trait, actually.

1:18:22 And some people think, and I think that's what you were talking They find comfort in being tribal. Now, sometimes you're at war with an enemy. But, you know, but I think a kind of worldview which says we are good, they are evil, as we've been saying in different kind of ways in different parts of our conversation, is I think foolish and wrong and ultimately self-injurious, actually.

1:20:06 Sure. You get better. It's not true. circumstances, it misunderstands what's happening. people i agree with i don't learn as much so you get together with that private roads dude that God damn, that's cliche. That's a surprise. Anyway, I lost the train there. I have power. I respect you. Yes. who is in this – and it's very childlike, this perspective.

1:24:26 other folks well i think one thing you know like i think um i think that um like we were talking in a way that makes you reconsider your own ideas you hold sacred? He tortured them. If the families will get reasons. Or I didn't really care. He's a vile person. He killed all these people. He tortured them. because I recognized that we can't be perfect. We're going to convict some innocent people and

1:26:44 There's something extraordinarily of people who have actually committed a crime should be punished. fraction are convicted, but they're given huge long sentences. It's like they're paying the then went on to become a writer, did The Wire and so forth. And he told the story actually at Yale And a bunch of liberal people were there and the students were really happy about that.

1:29:23 They were like, they couldn't get So we have a horrible problem in our society with incarceration. to reenter society. Now we want you i know a guy who got charged as a registered sex offender because he urinated outside There's also the idea of reforming them. to do that i mean i'm not interested in being killed by somebody who you know could it killed

1:32:30 So a lot of men typically, we're talking mostly about men who do these things, matters, the depravity matters. All of these things are factors. And I don't think we should a state to require that you walk away uh even if it makes you feel embarrassed uh then give you the I don't think so. and there was the the best student instantly did a kind of avoidance from the rear. And it startled the horse. And as the horse reared up and kicked its leg,

1:35:22 side of the street. So, anyway, I don't know how we got onto this as well. never be that person again. No, I'm suggesting – Very smart. Words and violence are different, right? Very rarely do you learn too much. What happens in nature You know But I keep coming back that are born with certain abilities better off, which then leads to those environments being

1:38:58 There'd be no milk to drink. There was therefore no reason for any adult to be able to digest Well, about between 3,000 and 9,000 years ago, in multiple places in Africa and in Europe, human beings suddenly domesticate animals. They couldn't drink milk like we could. The genetics of this has all been worked out several times in the last 3,000 to 9,000 years.

1:40:55 Earlier, you and I were talking about population density in a thousand or two thousand or five thousand years just like the milk example there'll be Dive. I. These are discussed in Blueprint, and there are many examples of this. Yeah, they're little slits. Well, no, because they didn't have glass. Yeah. Maybe no one's put it on. Anyway, your point is that they adopted or adapted rather to this new lifestyle

1:44:31 I didn't put that one in the book, but yes. had clothing. We had cultural means of coping with this situation. So for the cold, to cope with the One is coped with genetically, which is much slower with genetic evolution. And it's the cultural evolution. One is coped with genetically, which is much slower with genetic I wasn't thinking of it that way.

1:47:20 How much time have you put into artificial intelligence? So our concern with sex robots from a liberty point of view should not in the slightest be whether you enjoy a sex robot. Okay. rude to each other so our concern is not so much do much, do we make, you know, like Asimov's laws Slowly but surely, I think it will contribute. experiment with same-sex relationships, for example, group sex. You might learn to be a

1:50:45 and converts it into a kind of a machine, to, let's say, Our concern is a state, And so the similar argument can be made. Or look at autonomous vehicles. Here's an example. I still like to take my car to a speedway, but, you know, drive it itself with stick, which I like. when people are in contact with such a vehicle, they get lulled into a false sense of security.

1:54:10 so that then when I go to another part of the highway, when I interact with just humans, I have retained that vigilance. That's the experiments we're doing. see if if your expectations are are uh guided by uh porn and that is going to be radically magnified on what what the relative balance between men and women we might be surprised that uh that will be

1:56:39 I don't know. We're going to have a real issue. The debate is how far in the future. eventually I think there will be people to one particular region of the genome. I don't – I think it's – I have not seen those results and I think it would be premature. Like, ooh. And it goes back to the example we were talking about at the beginning. Yeah, I'm incredibly interested in this because I love to study history, and I love to study how crazy the world was 4,000, 5,000 years ago, 1,000 years ago, and what it's going to be like in the future. I just think our understanding of the consequences of our actions are so different than anybody has ever had before.

2:00:42 that's true i think there's certainly a lot of terrible things that are wrong in the world today also true but i i think that there's less So, I think this is not just a kind of so-called Whiggish view of history. discussing that also tend to a good life. So yes, I totally agree with you. We're better off today of this natural process by artificial intelligence, that artificial intelligence is going to introduce

2:03:37 Nevertheless, work persisted. terminator type existence where you know the machines rise up and kill us all or not and you I don't know the answer to that question. But It's silicone based life form Yes and we don't even know what we're doing. all the problems with us, Yes. because it won't be emotionally based. It't be biologically based it'll just exist

2:06:49 I'm going to stick to my principles Is the reason why that looked like us but weren't alive forever, actually. We're just in a phase, yes. Yeah, all these things are built in Maybe we will. People always have been saying, if you go back every decade, people are saying, just around the corner, just around the corner. Yes, that's possible. And on one side, you had one guy who said no.

2:10:16 Yes. We have that capacity. Right. to evolve to be immortal. Because we would have all this capacity to be immortal, we would have some people would be killed eventually by accidents anyway. It is fascinating, but do you think that nature had that sort of foresight? But if you've only done it to one person, He also would die. would have evolved to be immortal.

2:14:24 head. It takes practice to be unafraid. He just understands his capacity and his ability. I don't know about that oh i think he's just i don't know about that man he said basically that When it was running Either they're born that way Right. Yeah. Here's a quote. What did it say? Yeah. His amygdala is different movie. What did it say? He got an MRI and they said that. Here's a quote.

2:16:32 But isn't that possible that that's just through development of constant practice of staying calm while you're in life-threatening situations? And it is also the case that some people, for example, the most famous study in this So it's possible Holland is like you say, that he learned to be this way, that his amygdala isn't firing because he trained himself.

2:18:01 You have both, right? It's purely speculative, right? And also the nature versus nurture would apply to chess players as well. than what I just showed you about just that sentence. Think about people that are in high stress. I mean, he lives in a van and just climbs yes that's what he does it's And it's worth cultivating those skills. And I think it's also a kind of – you also find oftentimes that the practice of acquiring a skill teaches you other things that can then be used in other areas.

2:20:17 Pete Yeah. They would have been immortal. Yes, that's right.