Joe Rogan Experience #1383 — Malcolm Gladwell Transcript

Transcript

0:00 Thank you. frustrating when someone who's a great speaker does not narrate their books so thanks for doing And so tell me what you're doing. that we got obsessed with and then to the signature case which the book is organized around, Well, I think there's also an issue today with people not learning the necessary skills and how to talk to people because so much communication

3:05 actually playing a game you're not playing the game i'm butchering the metaphor i know what He's screaming at her. That she was killed as opposed to committing suicide. I mean, what kind of dark things can happen to a person when they're incarcerated for three days for a bullshit reason? that says here's a woman who's emerged she gets pulled over by a cop and by the way day that she arrives in Texas to start over, she gets pulled over

5:57 So here she is trying to start over after a difficult time. Yeah. And, you know, the – it's kind of hard to be – to kill someone and get away with it requires a level of expertise and forethought that struck me was not present and they're all embarrassed and sitting around screaming at her because she lit a cigarette? Yeah. In her own car? And while she's still on campus property, she rolls through a stop sign.

8:41 I better get out of his way. and he tricked me we have this all on tape of course And he goes, ma'am, is there something wrong? de-escalate this is I'm going to take a moment and light a cigarette and just take it down a notch So even on the level – I try and identify in the book all of the different ways. It was us. and you were the good guys. cop and that you have to listen to the cops because he's them and you're you yeah and that

13:12 He wants compliance. Yeah. And one of the big things I was interested in talking about in that case was how long Has he ever been on your show? He is. job is, is to add seconds into the encounter so that you have a chance to intelligently His point is, if you're the secret security guy, wait, you know, analyze what's happening. But the difference is he knows she's not a criminal.

17:13 This is not someone who's scared. Well, so in the deposition he gives, which I get to at the end of the book, and I got the tape of the deposition. It's totally fascinating. It's like he's sitting down with the investigating So he pulls her over Because she doesn't seem right to him. So he's like – if the police officer is on the driver's side, right?

19:41 of interpretation are mutually exclusive. That's interesting. That's what I got out of it. That he's one of those guys who pulls over everyone for bullshit reasons all day long. Now, if you look at his history as a cop, he almost never found anything else. for the light above their license plate was out. Was this comparable to the way the rest of the cops in the force in his division did it?

22:47 So, like, they're pulling over 99 people for no reason in order to find one person who's got, you know, a bag of dope or something in the car. Well, or... Explanation number two is this is a guy who has a powerful fantasy in his head that one day I'm going to hit the jackpot. I mean, are you allowed to smoke a cigarette in your car when a cop pulls you over?

24:18 I mean, no, there's no law. But he's basically doing the job like a jackass. of many police forces around the country. Why? That's what being a proactive police officer but you're thinking beyond that. That's the issue. I hope you find something. Now, understand that this is a country with very, very low levels of gun ownership, I mean, I've forgotten exactly what they're driving.

28:35 They look, they look ferocious. they should paint them? Something mild So it would stand out like, oh, it's a cop in his pink car. Well, I mean, against his point, though, how many women shoot cops? I really don't. He's either – he's kicked off for – I've forgotten the precise language they use, trip aspect of it i mean you know i've only often said, what would they do? You know, because there's certain

31:07 I mean, people are – they're glorified revenue collectors. they used it to like build a fucking gym for the cops or whatever i mean it's literally they had Department of Justice investigated, the real story is not the encounter between those two. It is that including, he accuses the guy of being a pedophile, because law enforcement was a completely discredited

34:25 It's not about that. I wanted to sort of start with the premise Who turns out to have been sexually molesting. The kids are saying something weird happened and the parents are dismissing it. So I wanted to, sophisticated, savvy, It was just like crazy. That's what I wanted to get at. And they found themselves, years before Madoff was busted, they found themselves with, I think, $30 million in a Madoff fund because of some complicated transaction.

38:06 Because it's returning. Because it's the right move 99% of the time. like if you want to talk in evolutionary terms about who passes on their genes nice people pass every day of the week, right? They're like, well, I don't know. as renaissance technologies if you're some crazy paranoid person right how would you even invest That's strange. in the market is super easy.

40:44 year in, He wants better treatment. He doesn't give a shit. and his clients are losing so much money one in a million circumstance where he's the only one making any money for his clients. So they come Nothing. Really didn't invest in And then... but they never went so far as to think that he was just making it up. and profit off when the stock would rise.

44:48 I forget. recorded somehow on a phone or something or maybe it was after he was in jail where he was talking And, you know, there's this crazy conversation So if you think about this, that guy, I know exactly what you're talking about. So you say most people, you know, when you invest in stocks, normally what you do is you check the box. in 20 years, right?

47:33 Yeah. Also, how can you prove that he was doing the same activity back then? Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you don't have any understanding of it, and this is just how the world works. Yes. The people who really made money from him were the people who had, 100 grand. Oof, that's weird money. that we know how to figure out who's lying. the studio right now, you can tell those if it's an area of your own personal expertise right like if someone tried to talk to you about what it takes to write a book

53:04 friend and that's i'd given myself a pass and then i met him through this This guy was talking about these fights that he had had, It's basically a guillotine from wrestling, And I remember we were like, what's going on? It's different. and he winds up going to jail and he's in jail now but i remember thinking okay you don't know shit about catching

56:27 telling me something is either true or false. when we remove sight and sound and all we have are just the plain words on the page. It was the move itself. maybe once i think chan sung jung the Korean zombie, pulled it off once. which turns out there was no fight at all. back mount where you would choke someone or you would transition to other moves from there and

59:30 and we were both like, there's something wrong here, man. Well, there's all kinds of reasons. but i mean just looking at them 10 you know 10 15 extra pounds right there they should be they I think we're a few decades away from some technology that allows people to establish intent and to see thoughts and i think they're very there's some sort of I don't think we're far away from that.

1:02:14 we know now in other words maybe what's inside my head right now are 35 different thoughts and And why is my intention to try and make you laugh, Or we're going to realize we're all a mess. I don't want that. that turn out to be wrong, deeply and badly wrong. And one of the things that I have learned as an correct it in other words you would trap me in like what if this would have had a reaction to

1:05:08 That's interesting, but we're talking then I mean, if one person has it, right, then yeah, I get it. It's not about forbidden sounds. you know, you could highlight real problems with people's thoughts and the way people It still leaves the question of cultural context. Right. So the American kid has past here, present in the middle, future over on the right, right? Three three circles. So the American kid has past here,

1:09:00 It means that they're not separating the point is there are i've just given you one random example there are way incredibly different sounds you make with your mouth and they convey intent if there was a way to do another version of language conveyed through this technology rather than through your mouth. be confused is about assumptions and rules as far as like what's okay well you could do that

1:12:18 that the Bulgarian translator service is. do it for you yeah although you hate for google to have one more thing over us right it's like Hunter S. Thompson yeah he was the flowers are blooming today, which is kind of like that. sort of saying is, yeah, like the internet, you have to Like whenever there's a – whether it's Contact We're going to figure out a way to talk.

1:15:25 Why was this possible in Canada and not possible in the United States? a lot of them are really mean which is a great place to grow up you develop a thick skin and That's what I said. That's what I am. In fact, I have a chapter on it in this book. in the 50s, these are people who are, in terms of volume of alcohol consumed, way up at the top. Why is that?

1:18:54 It's like night and day. I don't know too much about the actual – Have you had a certain percentage of alcohol, is it just – makes people want to do dumb things makes people get crazy makes people loud that makes people get crazy. It makes people loud. It makes people Irish. Right? Oh, I see. You're at the cusp of these two drinking traditions. Because we would think that you were majority Irish with that.

1:21:32 Drinking is like a white thing. doing that chapter i was interested in the First off, when I was in college, college student in America, I've been talking to friends about this about europe about how in europe uh particularly in italy and france you're allowed to drink wine at a very young age yeah and the taboo aspect of it and so intoxicating So hard liquor, when I was in school in Canada in the 80s, 95% of what we drank was beer.

1:24:20 Well, it's point – you've got to blow like 0.18 or something. There's nothing there. And past a certain blood alcohol concentration, your hippocampus just goes offline. Yeah. So that feeling when you get really drunk at a party and the next morning you can only remember little bits and pieces And it made that, like Hitchens, it made him a more interesting communicator when he was drunk, when he would have a drink.

1:27:01 It's just about memory. There's fascinating stories in the literature And they would reconstruct. buys a plane ticket, goes to Vegas. He doesn't know what he does in Vegas. Does whatever he does to function. So he goes, gets in his car, drives to the airport, buys a plane ticket, goes to Vegas. Two days. I don't, it's not like you can tell. You're at a party.

1:29:03 like, say five seconds, Okay, man, you just asked me that. I'm 126. So you fall asleep, and over the course of eight hours of sleep, that a person could literally lose their house Dope, alcohol, smoking, right? What you say goes. But every time? and i've done psychedelics and i talk about them openly i have hesitation about telling people so many people that can't quit them, so many people that have died from cancer. I mean,

1:33:53 I like them sometimes. i hesitate in glorifying that too yeah and for young people it scares the shit out of me if i Well, you know, it's just friends, you know, But I don't have a problem with it especially high doses if they smoke a lot of pot in one night they can have a schizophrenic episode i've actually seen it um particularly from edibles i've seen it um but that's to me that's absolutely the least taboo and i think there's a

1:36:14 Well, the reality is you're vulnerable. Despite all the paranoia With combustion engines diseases and you know not to mention you know war and all sorts of other things it could well by any of those things. is how the people who make alcohol get a free ride. I don't know how we got it in our heads but you go to a college football game we give it a like and in a way that they would never have marlboro marlboro yeah that would be

1:39:30 First of all, am I right? Oh, there's a lot. Yeah. are horrific right the feeling is it's one of the worst feelings a person can have yeah so wait when was the last time you Dave Chappelle and Chris Rock and work out comedy. That bit's in the oven right now. Never. bit and the audience doesn't laugh they're right you know maybe another audience would laugh maybe

1:42:25 then it became one of the greatest bits of all time it became this incredible classic bit but doing that and sometimes you have this idea in your head and you're like i think there's something You betrayed. in some ways a very different animal in some ways quite a similar animal. I've been doing it for 20-odd years now. they'll reward you the minute they see it.

1:45:26 about it and reward you those three audiences make that makes a world of difference in how you tell I remember once giving a talk to a group of engineers They're going to reward you the minute they see it coming. it's gonna be a disaster and also there are women but in conference rooms i would imagine and a different kind of halls and yeah uh bright lights yeah i'm

1:48:33 going to talk about things they've been sitting in the same air-conditioned arena for six hours Just to communicate with large groups of people, that reaffirms your faith. And you go to these meetings and you know that half of the room voted one way and the other half voted the other way and that it doesn't come up. You don't see this. they're just finding an ideology

1:51:09 I mean, there's people that are that racist, that are mad at subtle racism. So they'll find some reason why you're not woke enough. Now, as someone who's on his book tour and has been doing this for 20 years, let me just say, you have to do the Q&A. Right? He wouldn't do it. Was it? Any sense. Well, I mean, as someone who's in, you know, like I said, in the middle of a book tour, I got no sympathy for that either. That's what you do. who's in you know like I said in the middle of a book

1:53:51 in this case which of those just not what do you well there's people you know that's a thing where people want to just It's not that hard to answer questions. difficult if you watch those panel shows some for some reason the network news shows post-election Trump guy with this one, and they're ready with him interesting this would not be a stunt Does he want to meaningfully engage with those ideas,

1:56:48 with him on stage let's do it That's question number one. But at least he sent me an email apologizing. That's a good question. Let's go Rogan rules. You can't keep it together for three hours. In three you know who a person is you know i once gave a talk in columbia and the colombians are uh take themselves in the best way How long is three hours. He was dead serious. And you realize, like, this is the same. So when

1:59:27 And then you get the Gettysburg Address, which is, what is it, six minutes or something? an extraordinary. so he comes in to his like aides It's two paragraphs. Yes, It is a good move, right? It's a quote, says the first draft of everything is shit. you have to hold in your heart the conviction certain things, structural things, you can only will do longhand. Absolutely.

2:02:27 just different and yes makes sense to use both yeah i agree it's particularly for me um my notes Yeah. I don't do that. Every two years. So I'll go back over that and go, And then after that bit, I will sandwich in some new stuff. back and look at something you were you were a joke that you may have done i don't know eight and then he's ready to film at the end of the third year yeah and you know his last special

2:05:52 And I don't think that's right On the inside So they're laughing at stuff that's not even that good. you do there You do. never seen like a real world-class headliner who sells out theaters who teaches a course on comedy hilarious one is if you ask an architect who their favorite architect is 99 times out of 100 you will It doesn't get enough love because he has no social media

2:09:01 And it's really entertaining, and they do a series of shows doing that, He got sober. my fan my my um my my love of being a fan of stand-up comedy like i like watching it i'm a fan In the early days, I was too ambitious, and I was judging myself versus them. That's so dumb. I can sit there like an audience member and just laugh. how he would do it.

2:12:34 even though they're really good, is that increasingly So we're walking around, and I'm telling her my response to it. um and i think that's that's something that happens when you get so when you become so sure Yeah, you have a method. in terms of economy he was Is that Ricky Gervais? It's just two words have created this lasting image of Earl. It was a New York

2:16:48 do it with two words just strikes me it's the same reason why i'm obsessed i've always had an There was one, And the cab driver, they're all young, cool hipsters. because you're not expecting that. because they're young and beautiful He's right there with them. You'll never forget that. Yeah. trying to sell something yeah jerry seinfeld was going to open up an advertising agency for a while

2:19:43 i do not know yeah i would love to know that fact. And it's so odd the way he does it. That's how they write. Yes. Yeah. Yes. I mean, it's Larry David with this rapper. that kind of schlubby guy that's the way he that's who he is yeah those guys were in am i right they I'm not saying that you don't like. onto the floor i'm not interested it's just i i spent so much time when i was younger and stupider

2:23:34 my own brain works yeah like you don't you only have so much time and you only have so much energy it's just like everyone's different people have different tastes some people like really cheesy producer of Law & Order. And then I want to do appalls and outrages absolutely everyone. But there's something – there's a drug in those where they're comforting and that people know that the bad guy is going to get caught and the good guy –

2:26:20 shows up and imposes personally law and order on the territory, the community, So an Eastern would be the Serpico is an Eastern. is a Northern. It's a is corrupt and where the reformer is not an insider but an outsider so in in every john grisham novel the same they all proceed i love john grisham just to be clear but they all proceed Sherlock Holmes.

2:29:06 So Lee Child, do you read the Jack Reacher novels by Lee Child? confront some massive criminal conspiracy and he never calls the cops right that's the whole because he doesn't feel like it. No. Into the Hudson News and you see all those, there's a whole like wall of those thrillers. They know that I'm obsessed. They fucked up. They're fantastically well written.

2:31:31 Really? Yeah, it was pretty good. I just watch a little bit of sports. Or do you- Every one of my books began as a very, And I had such a fantastic interview with him. and the radio she's using in a shoebox In fact, so I go and I interview the guy who caught this woman, Even better they're still there they're bigger and i really it was one of those things where when he put

2:34:58 I forgot, of course, because it was this tragic thing where I turned off my tape recorder. Ooh, fuck. But I think, you know, if you're in that world you just assume What a crazy way to live your life. And he's way up high in Middle Eastern terrorist organization. Fuck that reporter. that'll make you look like a hero, Yeah. so this is a real treat for me.

2:38:17 That was great, man.