Joe Rogan Experience #1442 — Shannon O'Loughlin Transcript

Transcript

0:00 All right, here we go. Hello, Shannon. What's happening? Gwen's book about the Comanches and about the Texas Rangers. And I'm currently the executive director and attorney for the Association on American Indian And some places are restricting travel. If you had a Trump, a Trump Indian back then wanting to build walls around everywhere. that continues today. The genocide is ongoing. So this is not something from the past. This is something that continues today that we

3:58 It's very strange. And so you've got to stop me if I start getting too carried away, all right? non-Indians coming to court to try to determine who owned a piece of land in Indiana. And there principle that this case was based on. And it set forward this weird relationship that tribes in the U.S. government have today. And this was the time during the Indian Removal Act

7:48 I apologize. the federal government had plenary power over tribal affairs and that the Cherokee Nation The Supreme Court and other courts cite indecisions today to basically take away more and more rights. This was happening before then. So Georgia wanted that land for themselves. They saw how disease wiped out their brethren from other nations. about that life and

14:16 and then from the age of nine on lived as a comanche so she had like sort of a view of both grabs him. She's like, take me back. We're gonna leave. And it's a very sad story. Yes. And I think one of the major issues that American Indians have is that we are often stereotyped into this picture. And if we don't What percentage are you? It's through other types of cultural continuity, family relationships.

17:33 Right, right. like a nice last name with a lot of vowels, you know, it's a, that's what they like. That's a real issue? heritage, you have to do that genealogical research. And if you weren't aware, there's 574 Some of them are residency. What does that mean? folks from south of the invisible border, north of the invisible border, and in the western hemisphere.

21:25 It's similar but different. So it's it's a little odd, but there's no way getting around it being odd. One of the things that I got out of this recent obsession with American Indian culture and these stories was realizing how little I knew about the history of this country. wiping people out, calling things battles when they were really just massacres of women and children.

23:39 This country was founded on massacres. And those trades were to help pay for the schools. So they were basically indentured servants, slave labor, So there's the Carlisle. And like I said, the federal government probably doesn't have the records, And there are still many boarding school survivors today that can tell those stories of abuse, sexual and physical, and who still live with that today.

28:43 If you did not send your child to school, you weren't given rations. This idea that they were going to somehow or another bring back the old ways. that never was enforced. The U.S. let their people come in and take over what were supposed to be protective areas of land. and nothing was ever maintained. So there were already tribes there, the Caddo and Comanche and other tribes that this was already their land.

33:36 the exterior boundaries of our reservations, the area that we had agreed to live in, So Tulsa would be owned? So just how you would – is in trust or in restricted fee. that the tribe has jurisdiction over the non-Indian fee land. And the civil and criminal jurisdiction issues And so you have different areas of time, policymakers who support tribal sovereignty but that use those cases against us and degrade policy and degrade any kind of rights that we may have gained in other eras.

38:12 whether or not we're going to have land, jobs, 200,000 in museums in the U.S.? French loved to auction our sacred objects for some reason. repatriated, but it took about four years for that to happen. It can't be on display? we still look at Indian people and our cultures and our practices today. to try to mitigate these problems like if you had a magic wand and i mean it's been i mean if you if you talk about native american reservations in this country you people talk

43:38 Even if there's no quick fix? if we can't clear away those myths that we continually face every day, every time I go into Washington, D.C. Damn it. Every time I go into the Wegmans, have been taken from Indian people. I want it from your perspective because for us, we get, oh, yeah, that's an offensive word. of shitty. Yeah. I can't remember. Exactly.

48:23 We have Indians all around us all the time. Just go to the grocery store and buy some butter or some baking soda. One of the Pontiacs? You know, when we've all realized that Columbus wasn't such a great guy. if they didn't bring their weight in gold to them. And when they arrived in what I mean, they really didn't even arrive here. cities, counties, states that are still in the process of changing

51:18 Columbus? It is? You piece of shit. I feel really welcome now. I forgot about the Atlanta Braves, the Washington Redskins. Would that be okay? There are indigenous peoples there, but there are no federally recognized tribes in Ohio. No, they're a tribe of people. Yes. There was a case that the FBI actually got a hold of in Indiana, a gentleman by the name of Don Miller, who had a huge ranch house and farm.

54:34 Oh, yeah, here it is. And there were rules against this? or not. And so that's where it's interesting, because there's a lot of gigantic ranches in Texas that are privately owned that were originally Native American hunting grounds. And it's usually not protected. the grave and created the antiquities art market, which still is all over the world today. So

58:23 Right. I don't know. Well, the DNA analysis isn't necessarily going to tell you where it came from. We think he's something else. Like say if you won and it's brought back and given to Native Americans, to who and to where? those items or the ancestors. So it can be a pretty long, drawn-out process. and often poorly managed and maintained. I'm reading a story about it right now.

1:03:33 He's a handsome fellow. um looking at human remains for many tribal peoples is difficult. And, you know, some tribes and cultures believe that that's harmful to interact or look at or just a little bit humiliating. So they've removed it. For sure, I'd go. Or how about Amy Winehouse? Yeah, in a way. That's just one story. Sins. And it's known as the Indian Manifesto, right? But he also wrote Custard Died for Your Sins, and it's known as the Indian Manifesto, right?

1:08:31 stories. For example, the Choctaw Nation has a few origin stories. 5,000-year version, the 20,000-year version, the 40,000-year version. That looks like a good place to go. We're trying to look at it. No, it was a big sheet of ice that may have had little areas of – where you could survive. That we came from somewhere else. In fact, there's a funny story.

1:12:30 But there are other migrations that are still left untested. I mean it's really interesting. Yeah. They came from somewhere else as well, that everybody came from somewhere else? decision-making. Or our ideas are not even considered in science. They're not considered in order to create a healthy It looks like a female? It looks like a place where we were birthed out of Mother Earth.

1:17:06 People coming out of the ground like poppies. That's one story. Or Adam and Eve and all that other jazz. Right. So a lot of these stories, This is what we're responsible for. Like I'll sort of give you the magic wand again. alcoholism to the problems with schools to self-esteem issues, all these problems in North America, while also not the Native Americans, the way I'm looking at it, they want to stay

1:22:10 Even with a magic wand, I'm not quite – but it's a process. And part of it is these myths that we have to correct and that we have to find a new way to be able to tell our stories and not rely on non-Indian authors to tell our stories. But you need What are they doing differently than other administrations? A quarter of all Indian children during that period of time were taken away from their own families and adopted out to white families.

1:25:37 that our way of life is not acceptable, and other adoptive families would be better. What is their reason behind it? I mean, what are they trying to achieve? and I don't want to end it, and I don't want to continue it. But I mean a U.S. citizen like I'm a U.S. citizen where I can't start my own casino actions and soldiers and treaties were broken. right so if you won and you became the president and you ran on the part of what your platform was, was fixing this gigantic sore that we have in this country, our relationship with the tribes, what would you do?

1:29:51 And it has to start with public education. I think that's one of the major problems we have in this country is we don't have an appreciation of nature. for the dollar today and how that's going to reward our efforts today. And we're not looking even though their spokesperson could barely talk, What, what could be done to help these problems that we've already detailed? The problems with

1:33:37 makers in the things that affect us. So if you are going to bulldoze and blow up our sacred sites to build your border wall, it seems like the proper thing to do first would be to have a conversation with us and for us to make a decision about how we may can do that a little bit better to protect those sacred sites and natural springs and other things along the border instead of just blowing up everything.

1:34:48 And the tribes – Obama stopped it, but as soon as Trump got into office, he pushed it forward and did not consult with tribes. Right. So he's an adopted tribal member. Department of Interior and under the president has just been so closed. It's been hard to get I think that's the heart of what needs to happen outward facing. is like no other type of corporate gaming. And I think a lot of people don't understand this.

1:40:25 A hundred thousand jobs have been created in casino and other economic development. Absolutely. So the state – the federal government, again, allowed state to interfere with that inherent tribal sovereignty to regulate It's so strange, right? Yeah. Right. See how that works. I don't think that's what they did. hold on hold on with this doing what you want now you're under the guidelines of the federal

1:45:27 He was a very strong environmentalist who did a lot of work to protect Indian lands No worries. Stuart Udall. It's forever gone. What other things like that can be done to also take advantage of the fact There are all different types of economic development to absorb information and get people excited about things because it kind of entertains them as well

1:50:18 And without our even input. and again, as you said, Native Americans that are in these reservations are United States citizens. Without our cultures, we won't survive. actually looks like and what's important, I think that we are still so dependent on the great white father and what happens with U.S. politics and whether we have a voice there or not. We've got

1:54:00 But, you know, like my grandma always said, where there's hope, where there's life, there's hope. Do you know what I'm saying? and all of the various languages? No. There are many tribes that actually have research protocols. The real concern seems to be when you're talking about these incredibly impoverished So obviously there was a trade, there was a relationship between who the Chitimacha are

1:59:15 We have to do something with this. And they were able to do that because they had gaming It's just when you read books about Native American culture let people know what is actually happening and the plight What is currently a major focus for you? So we're working on developing strategies to go after those because a lot of those countries, there has been kind of a rethinking about the purpose of museums and public education regarding indigenous peoples and how do we decolonize these institutions.

2:03:52 return these items so that cultures can be revitalized and that those items can be put by this border wall because people strongly think we need a 30-foot, you know, tall border. They blew up an area and found human remains. Oh, Jesus. Yeah. Now, do they stop when they do that? Yeah. But the fact that nobody challenged him on that, like that's such a ridiculous thing

2:07:56 potentially thousands of years old? We're going to put a wall here. Those stories always weird me out when someone's building an apartment building And so a lot of the context for what was happening here before Europeans came is gone because we've just Yeah. All right. and you can just pick them up? I found one. But we found this little, and it was crazy to look at.

2:12:19 standing um and that's one thing i forgot to do when we started this interview is to recognize the land where we're standing now, which is original land of the Chumash and Tongva people. And what's interesting is that we don't recognize that here. Do they have a reservation out here? I know about the effort to convert them to Catholicism. agriculture, or you're making clothes, or you're protecting the children, or you're

2:15:56 country sometime. I would love that. I would love that. Where should I go? Oh, heck, where do you There are many places we could go. And they've left them in there. So a lot of things like that have been published throughout time. and, there at a museum and i'm like yeah that'd be kind of fucked up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that is a it's a it requires a shift in perspective.

2:20:00 talking to the people who have experience, expertise, and cultural knowledge about these items that are in their collections. somewhere once that we're just waiting for a lot of old white people to die. I mean that's really the case that there is just this old perspective, this old philosophy, they don't have the capacity to fight that because there are so many things on their table already.

2:23:17 in maybe some sort of a national museum of Native American history. Is it huge? Sure. Tulalip in Washington. I hope I always get my M states wrong. Is there a timeline on that when they believe that's going to be done? I'm doing gigs in Oklahoma. See, I don't even know what month it is. So Tulsa's up north. If not, the Chickasaw Nation has an amazing cultural center.

2:26:03 but they have... Yes. And it's been a very interesting dialogue because part of this is Bring me back and I'll be offensive. Yeah. It's essentially just being an Italian in this country. Prejudice against Mexicans dealing with all this wall bullshit and what's going on between. That's a big part of it. Yes, they absolutely are. Yes. Well, they weren't Mexicans.

2:30:47 I mean, maybe I'm getting off the subject now, but, you know, Catholicism came over here, and they had this thing called a papal bull. And it was basically the Catholic law. And it's just horrendous, some of the accounts of this. It's five lifetimes. haven't been taught. we, You know, Like we literally just got here. I think there's five or six million of us that talk about it every day.

2:34:24 I'm happy that you took the time in this calamity and chaos and pandemic to risk your health and come and make this trip. We can talk about tons of stuff, but I think what I need to tell you is that the Association on American Indian Affairs has been around for a long time. Yeah, only good, enlightened people can reach out. And thank you so much, Shannon.