Joe Rogan Experience #1485 — Krystal & Saagar Transcript

Transcript

0:00 Here we go. Then you're like, you're real. Thank you. And no one does. Like it's never been harder to actually just do that thing. kind of came up in quasi traditional background, right? Like Crystal came from the MSNBC world. they will send you talking points. They just say over and over again pull that yeah go ahead pull this sucker up what is what is

2:38 Like, is it the incentive access money for you to stay with the party line with whatever? If you're wrong in the non-approved ways, then you can get destroyed, canceled, all of those things. And then you layer on top of that, Then you go and you do the talking points. Because how do you even get on TV? Or how do you even become an authoritative voice in your party?

5:27 But can I say also it's not just that like direct career grift trajectory. people can do what they want to do. But that's the that was a legitimate sense among the Trump and this was before kind of the show was on YouTube. And I think, fair to say, great guy, Buck Sexton, and we had sort of a more standard left-right dynamic. And Crystal and I, like, we, I mean, we found, like, we would click on certain issues, right?

7:48 if I think something is good, people are pissed off at what you say. Probably should I would read more of it. It's not that I haven't like smarter to not read. I just said like have kids But I thought, let's do a left right show in a way that no one has done before, where normally the consensus, the sort of left right consensus is like this. Sager says, and I think this is true, there is very little representation,

10:11 is commonly happening on cable news even though that's reflective of like teeny tiny portion of was what if we hated each other less and the elites more? How do you feel about that? down the line Democrat or a standard Trump Republican, no one believes that these people Corps, it was very much just like, the quote, you could predict every single question before the briefing even began,

13:03 out into the ether and all of a sudden it just started to take off. I mean, it was like we just put it out into the ether. And all of a sudden, it just started, like, catching on. Just, you know, like, trying to be honest. And we're like, whoa. and it just like blows up. At that point in his campaign, from everybody basically except you, he was getting these really stupid questions about like, oh, is it just white nationalists who are supporting you?

14:49 Like, why are all these white nationalists supporting? Like, you see this with any candidate who comes from outside the sort of established channels. Ergo, you are bad. So and then that's the narrative. I think they don't even acknowledge the, I mean, do they know what it means to call somebody Like, what are you talking about, man? occasionally about really self-righteous blogs when and they write an evil blog about someone,

17:32 she actually said this. makes a million times worse no doubt about it because it's also simplistic it's also like And his thesis is essentially that once the Cold War ended and we didn't have Russia to be the bad guy, that the new ratings innovation was to make each other the bad guys. Because if, you know, people who are out there in the country, if the voters are the problem,

19:31 for people, trying to understand what motivates 65. like, oh, Bernie bros, it's all why I mean, if you look at the data, which we talked about on I'm sure the same thing happens with Crystal, which is that, you know, as you said, with country, is every day that we're not talking about how many million people in this country are that they will never want to have that one because they want people to hate each other more.

22:13 with shit on Twitter that you could make Well, it's funny, Joe. Please stay off of it the few days And I just read it in the paper. you know, this shows this. I broke my phone once on vacation. Yeah. they get all irritated and agitated truly yeah because it's the it is the exact same neural No, man, I switched to a flip phone. I'm forced to. took a lot of shit for it because they're like, he's trying to be the product manager

25:49 It does. It's Khaleesi from Game of Thrones, and she's being carried by all these... And, you know, it's a little overused, but I like it. My favorite example on that is there was a like a 10 year birthday party for AIG, which I don't even know what it was. We were trying to figure out how Nancy Pelosi made all her money. But just the amount of money that's involved in these decisions, the amount of money that's involved in influence and sharing influence and getting people to like your perspective.

28:38 fucking hot $1,500 tickets to what he's doing. Is now a lobbyist on behalf of ZTE. No one is saying think about it that way. This is just the way happening in the country right now and the fact that our institutions have no credibility, that Like, what does that mean in a context of a democracy? Even if they say they agree with it. It is good to be skeptical of polling questions.

32:21 It's really a perfect storm. There's so much madness going on in the streets today, How about reporters getting shot? That was terrible. And just a beat on her because she's actually a really important voice. And I've just been thinking about that so much in the context of what we see right now. of letting people burn out. But in New York particularly, it was a crime-ridden city, and it went down while he was there.

35:29 Sixth Avenue destroyed hundreds and hundreds of buildings with smashed windows and all their products gone. this is outrageous. It's funny because we were coming on here and we were like burn. That was it. And it was just all across the city. And this was an intentional choice. You can't allow these businesses. and why that where there's such hypocrisy,

37:38 And there's also, look, if you think about rule of law, ordinary, typically law abiding people who feel like the moment has broken down to the And so again, this isn't like morally justifying things that are morally unjustifiable, which is harder thing to have to reckon with that dividing line between these are the good law abiding ones What I'm talking about is people actually in the act of looting.

40:59 There's a lot of concern trolling around small businesses when let's be honest great depression and in that way you keep businesses together right you keep It was very different. When you ask that. And you can't legislate away from that. Yeah, certainly. But actually in terms of their percentage GDP and all that. and essentially nationalize it, especially in our country where your health insurance is tied to

43:45 But $2.3 trillion was the first one, extra couple hundred billion for the Paycheck Protection Program. By the corporate left and the corporate right, no way. like very much why he got elected, But he has all these people who work for him mass small business failure, all these other things. Because, I mean, look, he's the president and he makes his own choices.

45:55 I've interviewed him a couple of times, four times, I think. You don't think there's anything in there? Like, man, that's the JFK picture and like Eisenhower. points and like why he's great. But I realize, I'm like in there every now and again. who's like the ultimate incarnation of that. And that's not And he happens that he got a million-dollar-plus campaign check for his re-election through an affiliated committee before he got re-elected.

48:56 Yeah. Has he spoken about the recovering covid patients being readmitted to the nursing homes? you know but no night after Now, we're not saying he knew the decision, but there needs to be some scrutiny and accountability of that. And that's the way, I mean, on a basic level, that's the way it's supposed to be. The end of every, the lesson of every single news story cannot be ergo Trump is bad.

51:18 You just say what you think. Powerful people, man. I change my number every six months. I have one old phone that I check every like four or five days. You know, you really do. Stay busy. But Chris Cuomo was doing something the other day, and I was watching him where he's basically justifying riots. Look, it's a terrible position to be a young person right now.

53:23 It's all these white kids stealing sneakers. And it was him personally. as just like violent protest, like the problem is violent protesters, we have to deal with that, protests are about the structure of a system that doesn't allow and saying Hillary's wrong to apologize for it, et cetera, et cetera, who as part of this whole Let's call in the military. That shit ultimately never works because look at 19 years in Afghanistan.

57:05 And look, I mean, this is why you saw these Joy Reid, right? A lot more violence and protests weren't police and firefighters were visible. What? Little Rock High School to allow the Little Rock Nine to enter that school because a white But I disagree because, I mean, even if you're on the left, like Joe Biden out today saying he endorses this Hakeem Jeffries bill on banning police chokeholds.

59:38 The example of, you know. we saw on TV with the military police coming in and tear gassing and rubber bullets, peaceful populations that this is going to, they're going to go come in as peacekeepers in these cities. Think about the context of if you saw this happening in another country, right? He's bringing in the military to stop rioters and looters.

1:01:18 Absolutely. When you roll tanks into American streets and you treat the citizens like this is a war, you escalate the violence. See, I think this is the issue, which is that when people like you and I who are against police violence, who are against and acknowledge this action, we have a solution. Stop looting. out with that same cast of characters, Bill Barr and whoever else was with him, and taken

1:03:39 which never ends well. I mean, give me an example. When does this ever end well? And look, in the immediate term, like, first of all, I mean, I don't think the left would So the mayor, and I think the governor is in charge of the National Guard. And now people are and this is it's part of our history. think the opposite thing is happening from the right though. Which is the one

1:06:30 And we've already seen that. Is it good to – of course not. Statistically, it is changing. the bad people. And the policing system that we have is to protect this group and to police that group. And that's the part. that have a legitimate concern on a split screen with military police And I think that just the high-profile nature of this should raise awareness.

1:10:55 I've never seen one person say anything else. Exactly. This, you know, I mean, I'm a populist. protesters burned down my grocery store. They burned down everywhere, our shop. She even said, Like I drove through D.C. And this is where you're right, which is the right does not agree. we restore order in America and then we need to make sure that people are taken care of,

1:14:38 the problem is that shit's not going to happen. I mean, Mitch McConnell's already like, we're not And so, yes, figure out how to deal with the violent elements and get it peaceful, et cetera. I had a bit about that. But the people that are like, oh, I'm very interested in this. is opportunists taking advantage of this movement and the chaos. I totally agree with you. I feel

1:17:58 I mean, you know, I lived in Kentucky and Appalachia. The system has never been fundamentally fair, but people have tried their best to make it as fair as possible while supporting the special interest group that put them into power, while trying to keep up with the demands of their constituents. And right now, I mean that's one of the things I really took note of, which is this Hawley plan I'm talking about.

1:20:05 And if you can show these politicians, if you do something like this, you will get praise from And that's what we focus on in terms of the economic solutions and so much of what we advocate for on the show is you're not going to be in leadership. The Republicans aren't going to fundraise money I mean something broke through. because once you allow people to do it like de Blasio did in New York City

1:22:46 That's where I support, whether it's the National Guard or if the police have the resources, use the police. Black Lives Matter, chaos. You've got to put that fire out. It is. You can't pay your mortgage. to the past. But right now, the solution about the fire. No, no. We agree on that. Right. And so my view is if you bring in the military, first of all,

1:25:57 circles here, because I agree with you on all those things. And I am 100% in support of the I don't think so. and the smashing are not the people and these white girls are spraying, and so much more. Right. I know. That's like calling me a basketball player. Because there's no head trauma or very little. I mean, from the time I was 15 until I was 21, 22, I was hit in the head almost every

1:28:51 and I think that the impacts well, they were taking those big hits and training as well. So if you had a son, would you let him play football? It's huge. And they're like, holy fuck, it's John Jones. Did you see that guy? Life comes at you fast. But you know what has been interesting But when people see the chaos and the randomness of it all, that's what's really frightening.

1:31:39 But that's the thing is, it's not just a bad, one bad cop or even just policing. Sure. It has to do with nothing. Sebastian Younger wrote a great book about it called Tribe. fucking 20 years old. You believe that shit. I was so dumb. But they don't know where the fuck their cell phone comes from. They know very well what the with mass unemployment, Great Depression, with pandemic, with these polarized politics where

1:34:43 And then all of a sudden it's just – And all the bullshit on Twitter seemed to have subsided because people were dealing with a real live Sorry, that was me. There was never any real understanding. i don't know but like i haven't seen anybody on cable news be like these terrible people trying Well, that's where people are really cynical because I don't think Joe Biden's got a solution

1:37:30 the black and brown working class. And the incentive is always to keep everybody divided, Crystal likes to say it's a graph of rich people's feelings. Thank you. That's amazing. That's it randomly on Twitter. Whoever wrote that, thank you. They're brilliant. Thank you. 10 years can feel like a week. kill the Bernie Sanders movement, realign around the white, the left. I mean, the left just made this like a kind of explicit decision to like, you know, like kill the Bernie Sanders movement,

1:39:17 What? But on the right, like, like things are still very like up in the air, right? Like you still in America? Like, what levels? Like, how does it does it even affect wages? I would say yes, And to stop using racist rhetoric and actions. Like it's like a – I saw it in a West Wing episode once. you know, at CVS or whatever it was. The fact that people are in the streets, especially,

1:42:20 on it looked like his hand was in his pocket it's hard to tell but the point is he was nonchalant about having his knee on this guy's neck also he's in like a drain so there's a divot It also means that they probably do that shit all the time. bill like that's it's insane and so if people didn't work because of covid right and if people I don't know how it got to the

1:44:23 because Biden had just vetted her for VP way back then different civilian complaints people and saying, look, I'm going to put the baton down. But that's not looting. But all that approach, the crackdown tear gas, happened after the looting. And as Sagar was talking about, that's really where it all took place. it was a beacon. like people with car, getaway cars,

1:46:39 But worse than that is that police and many of the others have took a much more risk-averse approach to the way that they were going in that community. apartment. You know how fucking terrible it is to be the city life is all that enticing. which is like, hey, you know, fuck this. more often. No, they were fired. There's no trust in the media. There's no trust invested in any sort of a national unifying figure.

1:49:22 He's going to handle everything. that's me Okay, can you do 10 chin-ups? It's crazy that some of the most difficult jobs that we's an insanely difficult job. It's crazy that some of the most difficult yeah like that's what they did get out that's actually one thing we haven't plugged i haven't on the show with the prison labor. It was fucking crazy. They said, oh, we're going to replace you with slaves.

1:51:11 that I cannot believe but he's a very reasonable guy. Yeah. disease and that's that's also part of the problem is that this is a novel coronavirus that's what think it was a study in indonesia the percentage, like more than 80% of the people that are in the ICU have a vitamin D deficiency. I'm just trying to talk. And you could say that, well, chance of beating this fucking thing.

1:54:06 They shut down Alcoholics Anonymous, but they kept liquor stores open. I mean, it's completely, you've been cut off But that's been the blasé attitude. You motherfucker. No preparation at all. you've only had 2,000 deaths in the whole state. 2,000 is a good number. And it was during that time that, you know, when the economy was coming back, And coming out, we gained majority lower income jobs and coming out, we gained majority lower

1:57:43 can just order in, no problem, don't worry about it, What do you mean by this? And I would also say universal health care. And they're like, okay, good luck. Well, I don't think you should make chokeholds illegal. What that guy did was just torture. That's what he did. It has nothing to do with utilizing a I mean, I think there's a ton of cops out there running around with just unmanageable

2:00:47 had a friend who lives in a small town of 9,000 people reason to hate everyone and they're just broken yeah and and i think this is a thing that cops I mean, that's a really deeper question about what we're doing in society to lead to those And a lot of the people that are police officers there also live in the community. Yeah. community that is policed.

2:03:41 they didn't fucking care. It didn't matter. It didn't make a difference. And so if you can at least give people that sense that, no, the political system can work on your behalf, then you start to move in the right direction. I mean, it's weird. Reuse that opportunity to seize upon, again, buy American order that was put forward within the Trump administration that doesn't even call for mandatory like onshoring of medical supply chains, but just like wants to use tax rebates and all

2:05:42 there is a real benefit to be able to make things in America. And that You have a cheaper TV. happy right that's going to be the key to happiness and so everything has been used to justify those Now, look, I know everyone's going to – there were terrible things that happened. I think it's tender. They'll be like, honey, I really wish we could. Look, like the free market, was it – is it a good thing?

2:10:11 anymore? to have it better than they had. And when you lose that sense of hope, that's when things go off the rails. Sentient. it's very sad that we're in this position in 2020. That we, we have to say, I'm just voting A woman at the nation, a writer at the nation just wrote this piece that she started off. You're like, OK, well, at least Joe is going to be that you're like okay well at least joe

2:13:09 Wait a second. I mean, Bernie was 78. If he wins, you're hoping he lasts two terms. dick cheney situation we have heard that one my My favorite quote from Biden is he wants to make the Democratic Party a bridge he's a nice guy, but he just seems so understand that. When you're a mayor, There's this like celebrity culture But if you actually look at her record in Georgia, she was – and this is not like maybe if you're a centrist, this is a good thing.

2:16:16 Her dreadlocks would glow and whoa. There's this video that's being passed around in conspiracy theory Twitter. I think Eddie Bravo put it on his Twitter page, which says a lot, or his Instagram page. That's all these Illuminati people need. She's, you know, Well, and when you have Chicago, though, when you have no one who's trusted in the media and when you have this sort of general societal breakdown in general, then that stuff flourishes more than it would in normal times.

2:17:57 ideas, you can just bounce those And you pick the people that run those agencies and the deputies that are pledging allusions She's saying pledge allegiance to Lord Vader. Fucking Bill Gates is the bad guy now. First of all, they tear gas all the fucking protesters It's hilarious. He said, it's a Bible. I mean, maybe. that church that you were seeing, that was set on fire.

2:21:06 and then going out there and you're so insecure I don't think he has a real ideology. like sticking a mic in people's face or whatever. And, you know, I wasn't, like, particularly prominent there. And he was genuinely like, oh, my God, I can't believe I get to meet Crystal. like 1978. Right? Like, there's that old clip of him on Oprah in like 1980s, talking about Japan

2:24:03 They want better trade deals and they want less immigration. president. I mean, and even then, I'm not saying it was enough. There's still a lot more work to personnel is policy. And there's a great book called The Years of Lyndon Johnson. And so that's why you get something like the tax cuts bill, the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. Oh, you'll get what you want in your spending, but you've just got to put this in the spending bill first.

2:26:32 Yeah, I still think that's letting him off the hook too much, though, because like, I But when you've got 40 million people aren't on a payroll anymore, that's not going to do a whole heck of a lot of good. go in a crisis. They all voted for it. All voted for it. I think when you're talking about Trump and his history of understanding trade and business decisions, I think it's all stuff that benefited him.

2:28:50 And he's always in the moment, right? But now you're dealing with the entire broad spectrum of duties of being the president. And he's still playing a type yes so he's that guy now but he's that guy with global thermonuclear consequences And I'm appointing your boss and your boss's boss and your boss's boss's boss's boss in order to make sure that you don't actually do that.

2:30:45 at the way, you know, like Russiagate and all this other stuff, and you can just see like how where you don't have real power there. And you're also living in a society where you have corporate Do you think they really want to split the country along the lines? Right. for them, right? If you have a broader conversation about a society that, you know, has decimated

2:33:24 and then be able to go work Look, I won't cite who told me this was a very prominent person in the field of economics and was like, my conspiracy theory is that Jeff Bezos wants 10 to 15 percent unemployment because then what's the best job in the world, Joe, in a rural place? I don't know what that is. the Civil War, and much more panned the essay. They said, this thing needs to be corrected.

2:35:41 that that is the only single and most pressing problem that we have in which the And so the way I look at it is that identity politics is so cynically grafted on by the in the 1970s of all of these crazy, If Goldman Sachs, if the pressure on them is to stop the way that they trade derivatives or to Instagram blackout, all that stuff? people who are disenfranchised, who are disproportionately people of color,

2:40:05 And so you can't separate class and race because it's not an accident, of course, that black and brown people are disproportionately the lower income and poor and working class in society. They bust unions. Yeah. I really enjoyed it. That's alright. That's our job. It is your job nonsense and I think Thank you for everything, Joe. You created the space for people like us and our politics and for us to thrive.

2:42:32 Thank you, Joe. So thank you. Tell people E S A A G A R on Twitter, same on Instagram. Also, you can go to rising.substack.com. We'll