Joe Rogan Experience #1520 — Dr. Debra Soh Transcript

Transcript

0:00 three two one hello deborah hi we were just talking you're locked up in toronto you were I mean, how many people have you known that have caught it now? Nine friends have gotten it. One of them was an older guy and one of them is a guy who was 45 who just was run. actually everyone has been telling me to take vitamin D. I take omega. Well, that's good. But you should really, vitamin C and vitamin D are critical and zinc.

2:19 I feel like if you're giving me personalized advice, I should probably take it. Cause I'm The vulnerabilities of our economic system Whereas the vast majority of people that get it, It hasn't been bad. misinterpret what I, when I announced it on social media. I'm saying the complete opposite, that the fact that science denial and misinformation about gender is so prominent now is actually affecting is really poorly affecting our ability to understand gender and that's leading to

5:00 Yeah. Yeah. So when I was doing my PhD, I very much, I loved being a sex researcher. the best approach for them would be early transitioning. the vast majority of them are more likely to grow up to be gay in adulthood. It's a very strange time when it comes to talking about certain subjects, because it doesn't matter what the science is. this ideology, people want to say that you're, you have no compassion, you're evil, you're bigoted.

8:13 they're praised for deciding that they're trans. And then they get these clusters of friends that so far left i do think a lot of this is coming from empathy which is a good thing and i i have we're seeing in the book. But I think for a lot of people, they look at that and they say, okay, It's rigid. wow, I never realized that. It doesn't matter what the science says,

10:54 and they will call you transphobic, five years or maybe a little bit longer, we're going to be seeing an explosion of children No, exactly. And I get there has to be some trans people that as children knew that they were women or they were the opposite sex, that they were in the wrong body. female and you go through the transition and then you realize you're a gay man later in life,

13:48 that is ethical in the field has left or they stopped working with these patients because they Where, like, you were talking to that other professor and they were saying, even if you get tenure, this is not going to protect you. But I feel activists tend to be the most vocal. that students are being taught this and they graduate, But here it is now.

15:59 Like at the book, I don't understand why we can't just have a fact-based conversation. really critical aspects of people's lives, which is sex and gender. I would love to talk to you to reconceptualize what gender or sex are. And also for intersex people in particular, most of than wait a minute wait hold on a second you feel masculine uh-huh really that's crazy you don't

19:12 So what it comes down to is testosterone exposure in the womb. I've always been more like the boys. When I was young, especially, I used to always get into fist fights with the boys, and I would actually win. because i'm actually very concerned what it's actually about. Or for people who were born female, I'm definitely not anti-porn. this in a nice way. I think some of them, it's a cool thing to say you are.

22:39 But I would say in terms of the popularity, one study showed that among millennials about 10 percent a man if you're a feminine man you can still be a man and be a feminine man there's nothing wrong with that right but that's where people feel like we should be describing it as more masculine or more more feminine and they're more comfortable with this concept of a spectrum

24:54 So double mastectomies are very common among people who are born female who identifies non-binary. I think we can have this conversation, and I think that's why we're having it. conversations. And I think the reason why is because they believe that these conversations people that object. And this is where the problem lies, is that the people that you were referring

27:41 this is to me, it's a very important subject. I also have friends who have daughters this is to me is a very important subject I also have friends who have This is a real psychological and cultural phenomena. this should not be a partisan issue. So, you know, in terms of you're saying that no one was having Abigail on, I'm actually I think the issue is most people that have the kind of reach that maybe my podcast has

29:58 You must be a bigot. So how can you say that to a group of people who say this is what I experienced. You know, they're completely, and the way they're being also ignored by the medical professionals and told that essentially if they change their mind, woman where we can, we have a grasp of the biology to the point where science can actually alter the

32:15 Why did medical professionals not question me, not stop and think about this? So in some places, like I believe Oregon, it's like 15 yeah so you can go without without parental consent and even still a lot of cases decisions at 15 years of age. With testosterone too. So I want to, I spoke with Buck Angel. I They'll be bleeding, and they don't know why.

34:44 born a man biologically doesn't mean i don't think you're a man. I mean, it's covered in tattoos whether it's culturally or socially or locally, whatever environment they're in, you, you can't And that there is a problem. very strange to me. I just don't understand how many people adhering to this. And I think they're to be we have to be realistic about it. And if you hide this information, what it does then for

37:45 lot of animosity and a lot of mistrust. And I understand where that's coming from, but at the And in fact, legitimate studies are being pulled now just because they do not fit the narrative that activists want. saying that Abigail had said was that there's some astounding number of kids that have experienced Why do we not see this happening across different ages? It's very specific to

40:49 in life but i think for young women especially when they can encounter situations like this And I'm actually really appalled because I think especially in this time where we are very much in favor of female rights and gender equality, a point where there no longer is this problem in our culture and trans people are accepted, the community and to tell people who counter this narrative that they're hateful or whatever that this is going to somehow

43:39 There's conversion therapy for sexual orientation, which I don't support because it's unethical and doesn't work. in terms of of children like what what does that entail especially who say they feel like they're the opposite sex, So if some sort of a psychologist sits down with a child and asks a certain toy or really into something else or another hobby. And then gender might also be one

46:54 Globe and Mail defending it. And since then, it's just been, it's just gotten worse. I see that But I see there being a lot of negative repercussions as a result of that. thing to say you know and i've i've had weird conversations with people about it where they shows that this is true. And I'm thinking, what, what science are you talking about? Right. But

49:29 about that new science. Like science is just data. Science is repeating things and proving I say that I would never say. And I just ask that your audience actually read the book before making He definitely does. Yeah. I mean, I think we're living in a very confusing time. a lot of left-wing ideological values to combat right-wing values. It's like they've gotten more

52:29 you're you hate you do this there's it's bigotry it's that is there's no room for discussion Yeah, I would agree with that entirely. Have you had any conversations with people, trans activists or any people that opposed you or angry at you where you were able to sway them? And I think if people want to listen to that, that's their business. And if not, that's fine

55:04 trans women to be women, because like with fighting, Yeah, that's a very extreme example. oh with the children transitioning yeah i feel that's one subject that it's really But the thing is, for all of these studies, their sexual orientation is gay. her partner would share her birth sex. How do you account for the seemingly large number of men who transition to become women

58:58 I do not want this information to be used to hold back trans people. and they don't know what it is. So I really wrote, I wrote about this and no one has really talked about this in the mainstream. Just no one will say it because they are absolutely terrified. trans people that are fully transitioned to look and appear 100% female, even naked, versus someone who

1:02:12 How are they doing that? But you can still feel pleasurable, though. right with a female usually it's clitoral right it can be it can be um uh i can't think of the word now. I'm not really. So that's also why I think it's important to be able to talk about this, because for people who experience these feelings, maybe, you know, transitioning may or may not be right for them.

1:04:32 So it's auto as in self, gyna is woman, and philia is love. the number of people i know who are doing it and are not ideological and are ethical as scientists So that's one of the key issues, right, in terms of the research you do. If there is a larger percentage of people who are... And I do think for, if we go back to the children children I do think for some of the parents who are

1:07:40 there. And I was like, do you know why why it's because they literally can be thrown in I mean, sometimes people like to say things because they have a thought in their head that they think, without hate, which is what you're doing. And this is why it's so crazy that they're actually quite mortified that these are the things that some people, a right-wing Trump supporter. And they want to argue that position. And I think people do that

1:11:11 we should accept everyone. We don't have to call people trans or we don't have to widen the you've got a lot of virtue signaling, Yeah. And I think also when you're saying with what's natural, I think some people, Is the argument that the earlier they transition, the quicker they'll be happy, the more time they'll spend in the gender that they belong to rather than the gender of their birth?

1:14:05 on the podcast just a year or so ago, where they were saying, if the child changes their opinion, you see is that these blockers are perfectly we don't we don't have the data we don't know what it but what are the repercussions and what what do these parents do when they find that this out And I think for a lot of them, they were told if they don't allow their child to transition, that child is going to commit suicide.

1:16:47 dysphoria that occurs in teenage girls, particularly with autism. But let's try to be anxiety, depression, substance use, all those things go down. So like I said, I do think transitioning can help people. And I think, you know, I'm glad work with patients anymore. But from the conversations I've had with my colleagues, with trans people and it doesn't seem to matter whether they transition

1:20:12 But they're basically saying that if these people hadn't transitioned, there's a possibility that they would have fared even worse. with the, you know, being born in the wrong gender and what can be done? Is that why people I totally get that. it's been something I've been wanting to do since I was a child. So I'm super grateful to my editor, What do you mean by that?

1:23:23 totally fine to just do, do you, you don't have to do anything in the behave to be an enlightened woman. And I'm saying, you know, I think it's totally fine to just do you. that that's somehow being high maintenance, I just think, again, if you try to hide what science and reality is, it's not going to help you. You know, obviously, there's differences in what people want to pursue.

1:25:49 And there's a biological component to that, right? conversations in the last month or so. And I've had a couple of them before. Like I've even got of society wants you to think of them as. Well, and you know, to people who are saying that to there's, And, for themselves or is it better to step in and for whatever reason decide that Billy is really Sally?

1:28:38 Or was there a very conscious decision on your part to just not listen to it? too many they see you as a threat but i don't know why you know i'm not a threat i might be and open-minded And I'm so glad I get to chat with you semi-face-to-face and actually congratulate you in person for the Spotify deal because it's just amazing. yeah. And I went, oh shit. And that was the moment I realized like, oh shit, like what's happening.

1:31:51 And if people want me to have a trans person on to, to show, uh, the opposite perspective, I know that I know that you're coming from a good place and I really do hope opened up this freedom that I unfortunately did not have as an academic scientist. Thank you. But also with journalism, I would say, I get it. promoted right people are sick of it I think they really are and I think what you're saying is very

1:35:59 have to do something to get people's attention today. I defend clickbait all the time. I Yeah, but I guess the larger hope is that because journalism is supposed to be objective and it's myself and probably you as well, and a lot of people listening would gravitate to. And I think a lot of people like myself and probably you as well and a lot of people listening would gravitate to.

1:37:51 all have our own biases and then i think the main thing is are you aware of those biases and do you women, that it objectifies women in a harmful way, and that it changes the way young people and particularly But I don't think viewing that is what makes men misogynistic or disrespectful of their partners. Is the problem the alcohol or is it your behavior?

1:41:31 But again, I don't think it's a porn problem. this perspective on porn though that we don't have on other things because like They're signaling that they have wealth. pornography addiction in that i need to introduce you to some of my friends you don't know what that's not addiction that's usually procrastination it, they're saying that this is, you know, my tolerance. But if you actually sit and have a

1:45:07 There's something that's going on in your mind that you are getting addicted to, the excitement, the endorphins that you get from gambling. Because there is no withdrawal and it's not like you reach a certain point where you need more to get you off. or you teach them, say, they give them assertiveness training is spending 8 to 12 hours a day that's a lot of time that's that's pretty far in terms of severity

1:47:39 people probably is procrastination and there's probably a lot of other factors as well. But Yeah. So why do you think it is that we have this weird take on sex? Because it's a weird thing that it seems to be, there's no problem with sex sex but filming sex and showing sex is where things because you're a beautiful woman who studies sex? Or studying something perhaps that doesn't jive with your own proclivities.

1:50:26 It's one of those things where people are like, why are you studying that? I think America still has, for whatever reason, the echoes of the Puritan ideology that was established when So that's in contrast to abstinence-only sex, which basically tells you to wait until marriage. education so that they i think that's they can make more informed decisions that way.

1:53:01 that other people didn't see it. Like, how do the parents not know they're creating monsters they're creating sex monsters like one of the girls that i dated That's a good question. really believe that. Maybe it was probably the opposite, right? It was probably like they're I think it should be, and that's fantastic, then make you happy and and there's no need to feel pressure to behave in a certain way you know

1:55:55 you know, and it's a bit more context dependent. You know, and I think having these kinds of conversations about it and hopefully people so fucked right now and i think people should be It's crazy. And one of the things that exposes, I don't, I don't particularly like the way things are run here. And I, I, I don't like being in a place that going to be gone. Well, maybe I'll be here every now and then, you know, I look once things are

1:59:23 It's beautiful for you because you come from Toronto. But after a while, it's like, it gives you a distorted that, just understanding that sometimes you have to be at the beck and call and the will of i'm happy for you thank you I'm happy for you too and at DrDebraWSo on Instagram hopefully we get to see each other in person.