Joe Rogan Experience #1521 — Josh Dubin & Jason Flom Transcript

Transcript

0:00 Josh, Jason, thank you. Thanks for being here. You do a lot of things. We have a podcast. I've been in the music business since I was 18 years old. A little bit, yeah. eliminating mandatory sentencing, decriminalizing drugs, basically getting people out of prison You know, you're just trying to right wrongs. a pothead yeah it's it's it's outrageous it It doesn't make any sense, and it's the slowest battleship to turn, you know,

3:23 You know what's crazy is that when you said thank you and you like when successful people do this, when you said that, I almost felt like – I don't know the right way to articulate it. called Fresh Start dropped to almost 0.3%. And it just shows Well, it's so succinct. a podcast where I think we could actually do some good, So I happened to pick up the post and there was a story Cuomo bid.

6:06 This was 92 or 3. sentencing judge from the warden and even Geraldine Ferraro had written a letter on behalf of this kid So I only knew one criminal defense lawyer back in those days, And long story short, And they brought the kid in in shackles like he was Manson or something, right? And the arguments went back and forth. I knew nothing about what was going on. And finally, the judge says, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever he said. And he goes,

8:26 And I joined their board. I'm only 45, only. I'm trying to remember Barry Sheck. with me. So I then got a call from a real famous civil rights lawyer named Jerry Lefcourt, who said, and he gets implicated in this murder at a pizza hut. And he's accused of raping and his friend people say, which is, okay, I'll tell you what you want to hear just to get out of the room.

12:11 I think I learned a lot from my dad, too. My dad always taught me, you know, about doing the right Let's talk about how you know they're innocent. I mean, again, he'll speak about that. to... Okay, so he confessed He had, you know, he had his whole life in front of him. He was a phenomenal athlete as well. he implicated Julius to get the attention off of him. He actually hid the gun in Julius's house

15:36 why don't we just take this, I won't say the word, out behind the courthouse, shoot him and Go for it. I deal with for the Innocence Project and that I take on pro bono. And I'll give you two examples He is escaping MS-13 in Honduras. And he wins like what? and he swims across the Rio Grande, almost drowns. And then he's taken, I mean, that whole story I

18:50 You want to come work at my restaurant? He can't speak English. comes up and he goes to knock on their door and he sees a bloody shoulder blocking the door. and he sees the grandmother slumped over in her wheelchair and he freaks out. He goes, and get my work clothes because she worked at subway the sandwich shop so the boyfriend of You wanted sex from them, right?

22:34 that we were swabbing for evidence is the daughter's blood, a trail of the daughter's blood going to the bathroom, four points of restraints. That's your arms and legs. And there's in the doctor's notes, So watch this. is outside of her window. I demanded proof there, and there was incontrovertible proof. So watch what happens. And she lifts up her hand and her pinky is bent down like this. And I said,

26:45 and I got to walk him out off of death row. and to Jason's point that you that's pretty great yeah man you know? It's fucking crazy. I don't care. when you death qualify a jury, if you violate these rules, the case is going back on appeal. I find out that she was the judge in the Trayvon Martin case whose husband represented George Zimmerman and wouldn't recuse herself.

30:01 So I just kept going at her. Like, I'm thinking there's no fucking way I'm going to get him off. board and to be able to be in a position to help these guys and just help them start a life again. And all he did was uphold the law. One of them got promoted. I talk about it on my podcast all the time. Yeah, I got him off after. So he asked the guard for a Bible. And the guard said, there's no Bible. He goes, this is hell.

34:45 That's him right there. when and so where is he now he's so listen to this how about this he would go into court when he was And I said, you know, he got located at this place called the Sunny Center in Tampa. Like literally from death row to the front row, right? And I left there and flew to L.A. I literally went from death row to the front row. And even if the system was reformed in all the ways that we could sit here and think of, right,

38:09 And that gruesome execution where the electric chair, quote unquote, malfunctioned and his head caught on fire. they prosecuted him, right? He knew it. And it was absolutely proven that was not in question. And meaning that there's winners and losers. flawed, they do things like that. They'll know they're wrong and they do it anyway. They know circumstance. Joe, you could not have articulated it better. I mean, it is, you ever been in an

41:00 Or am I going to continue down this course? And I was begging. I had a dash cam video of her saying to a cop, That was your voice, right? he won't just say I fucked up here we fucked up South. And it's a real problem and I don't know how to solve it. It's not like they're going to truth to power. It's gotta be terrifying to there too, to know that someone is willing to convict someone

44:22 They don't want to hear it. they're authority figures right i grew up respecting uniforms and everything else, and I still do. But the fact is, they may not be telling hide. They think I'll just go in, I'll tell them what, you know, like I wasn't there to confess to crimes that they didn't commit. And once you start talking and you're in that little airless room,

46:39 So they can sit there, especially, and you know the people that are most likely And none of them did it. these blowhard politicians have the balls to introduce, because they're afraid to piss off And we're going to lie to you. I don't know, maybe I did something and don't remember it. My partner's crazy. I would never do that. And it's also a game.

50:17 And yet they came back in and said, listen, we're going to try you again unless you take a plea. I want to let it go. But if they really are vindictive, they may say, you know what, I want to protect this conviction. Kamala Harris, and I think this might be a good time to talk about this because she might be the Anything's an improvement as vice president if he does pick her. Anything is an improvement in my mind.

52:46 from defense attorneys, once she should have known, in my opinion, that people were innocent, So what was her justification for this? You know, when she's asked for her justification of it, the marijuana one that you just highlighted? She stood by criminalizing marijuana in this state. But, you know, we'll see. And so it's kind of. real life examples, okay? This is how there's enough of a shit show and a fight to get out.

56:58 When the hair is attached to the human head, when you die, there's a physiological phenomenon that happens called No kinks on it, no dirt, no debris. semen, a lot of biological material DNA. He fought for years to get access to the DNA, They start testing every single known male associate of John Restivo, Dennis Halstead and John Cogut. And they can't. And it's only after that that he gets out. He spent 18 years for a rape and murder he didn't commit. He's you know, I love him. He's like a like a brother to me now. But, you know, he's destroyed. You don't come back from this.

59:33 jury for civil rights violations against Nassau County, which indemnified this cop that framed to block access to dna once you get the dna you're still sometimes in a crazy uphill battle It was Arkansas. tested. And the state refused. And five years later, the higher court said, oh, you guys made So this goes on all over the country. And it's crazy. Of course,

1:02:27 she bragged about it. Like it was an accomplishment. As an accomplishment, right. Wasn't she also part She denied that she didn't charge him, but I don't know. everyone is and everyone has the right to, to you know succeed to the level that they What happened? because I have so many of them in my head at once. was a Republican. So what is... I'm sorry to interrupt you, but what was the evidence that

1:05:25 because I think that's an important thing for us to talk about react the way you did this to cry anything right? And the answer is usually not. I mean, this Restivo case, and John is such a beautiful, beautiful guy. We are working state by state. And it's interesting. you have to open your eyes and say you know are am i going to realize that there's no evidence

1:08:37 I mean, listen, it extends the compensation issue. he was no longer incarcerated. He was went But it's very rare that uses and it's made me poorer, but I'm happy to be poorer as a result because he's made it his mission in life. You never really recover from this. He said, Josh, I tried to draw and I had a panic attack. It brought But anyway, but he's more than that.

1:13:04 We visited Albert. But Josh is the guy who actually, like, we've been supporting the local attorney, very good local attorney named Mike Whelan, in this case. It doesn't matter. This is what we started talking about at the beginning, and then I made you stop and redirect it. You may, your heart may beat faster you would say, oh, well, that's reliable, like bite mark evidence.

1:16:29 But now I want to try to make you angry because I think it's the anger that should drive people. are crooked if I bite into a mouthpiece like if I get a mouthpiece formed you skin. They can't even agree as a threshold matter what's a bite mark and what isn't. of all these forensic sciences, And he's tried and convicted, that's kind of fucked up because witches aren't supposed to be able to cite the Lord's Prayer because this was a trial during the Salem witch trials.

1:19:18 They posthumously exonerate him. It now infects, and it's probably an unpopular analogy to use now, but it spreads across the criminal justice system like a virus. is everybody says, they ask me a lot, is to get people thinking, Right, of course. should be able to ask, how many of you think my client, he was arrested, indicted, must One more time. Koloff, who's an award winning writer. She just won every award you could win for writing an article about an informant in a case of mine. And I got

1:24:35 out of the body from a static body versus one where blood is circulating already changes it. based in the work of the Innocence Project, I mean, the highest authority in Texas, surface days or weeks later, and you're going to go, this must be Joe's teeth, because sometimes it can make it appear that they're missing two front teeth. So it's just, you know,

1:27:13 it and finally on the whatever 15th try they get it and they all start celebrating and high-fiving and untangle it, right? Arson. Arson, you can become a licensed arson investigator with a 40-hour correspondence course. There are countless people serving hard time in prisons in America. She was asleep. doting, loving mother. She was working and going to school and she lost everything she owned. She

1:30:42 There was a tragedy, but no crime. and now she's helping others. talk about it. You're familiar with it. You know the desired outcome, so you confirm that bias. I hadn't done any bite mark cases in all of director at the Innocence Project, it was actually a post I created in honor of my dad, who's not Yeah, can we? It's a ridiculous idea that you can shake a baby hard enough to rattle its brain

1:34:30 They don't shake it. I can't leave her out. is that the person must have done it. Most people think that if someone was arrested or accused, they must Great. and from some of the people he's helped free. We hear horror stories of innocent men and women robbed of their freedom. How is it that you could have multiple expert witnesses make that fundamental of a different finding with the same evidence?

1:38:15 more disturbing than I thought it was going to be. I never would have imagined that all those What about arson? Cameron Todd Willingham, rest in peace, was executed by the the top fire expert in the world, a guy from England, who has like over 100 patents, invented everything. The Cameron Todd Willingham story kills me. I'd love to. I just don't want to start crying again, man.

1:41:05 part of animals. It's a natural part of finding weakness in systems. And I think there's a way was you know close to his seventh birthday, So I've been teaching him and Lennox teaches him and Andre Ward teaches him and I always have this tension And you see it in other people and you recognize it and you point it out and you pick on it. My insecurities faded away because now instead of being constantly worried that someone was going to pick on me and beat me up, I was fighting.

1:44:43 I changed and I realized like real early on like kids need Listen, man, I could every people ask me all the time, oh, what's Lennox like? You know, and if you, you know, these are two bad motherfuckers. What a fuck. Right. psychology there. It's not warm sensitive sweet human beings to be good you have to address all things you have to address he can absorb those two or three times and hit you.

1:47:57 And also, you're going to get humiliated and tapped, but you could do it over and over and over again. Yeah, 100%. You learn that you can improve. And it gives you a lesson that it improves your human potential. know, as a matter of fact, that I would not have had the emotional strength to look, you're not fucking doing anything. I mean, in Clemente's case, at one point, the cop,

1:50:31 But I don't know without getting myself – and I also felt that managing professional fighters, the best professional fighters, I didn't want to be some weak, douchey lawyer. And he said, don't get cocky, though. It really did. He started relying I wanted to throw something in as well, because And he goes, man, my grandson is just getting brutally bullied at school.

1:53:04 He's got that belt. He's got the other belt. And just like you said, Joe, I mean, I have never met You don't have to worry about brain damage. He sounds amazing. You know, I've seen too many. And I got threatened. He's beautiful, but I think that he's been hurt. And a few years after the trial, I mean, he spent Thanksgiving at my house. Some brutal, brutal, brutal fights.

1:57:04 Oh, yeah. What about Golovkin? There's a lot of factors, you know. Those guys have bigger power. It's very effective. The Untold Story, right? on Instagram so fat Joe said who's the hardest you've ever been hit by and he went Lennox he and he was on a different level. and lennox is fucking enormous he's and he's um he's a crazy athlete people don't realize like

2:00:16 you better fucking run yeah but that one's slippery that one's slippery a lot of people think he did it oh really yeah i They created a lot of, like the cop that was chasing him, the bad cop, that wasn't real. He's a fantastic fighter. It's hard. Well, I think it's wonderful A better boxing case is Dewey Bozzella. Yeah, well, I helped him when he got out.

2:03:02 So when he got out, he did 26 years. Look at him. But when Dewey was about to get out, And Paulie was real enamored with the work I was doing at the Innocence Project. even know where that kind of grace comes from but I mean I want to kill myself Really? Emanuel was like this Detroit slickster. And he lobs this question to me. He wrote a letter to the parole board.

2:07:29 But we get into the courtroom. of Walter Swift. And she shocked. And Emmanuel comes up and he grabs his garbage bag from him with all his belongings. and maybe you could help with MMA fighters involved. is provide some avenues that people can help. at the bit to talk wrongful incarceration, I mean, mass incarceration. Yeah. And I'm so glad you brought that up, Joe, because there are things that people

2:10:16 who's been wrongfully accused of shaking her baby to death. want to, you know, lock her up for the rest of her life for something that she didn't do. Maybe we can put the links in your bio. And it's so important that we give these people because even the ones that do get compensation, Josh knows this better than anyone because he does civil law as well, one of the many hats he wears.

2:12:29 can take there. Of course, we'll talk more about that. But I did want to touch on mass incarceration No. Do we have a higher crime rate than other countries? No. Is there any benefit to this policy? No. Does it cost a fortune to keep this thing going? By over-criminalizing these people, by not investing in resources that could actually help those communities,

2:15:06 11 to 12 million people are arrested and jailed, at least for a short period of time in America every year. whatever. So, you know, there's, I'll stop talking in a second. But the fact is, there's a guy who I it was a thousand years since bail was invented, in 1899, it changed. And people realized it actually started in San Francisco, strangely not to pay. But if you can't afford to pay it, you go to jail. So then emerged this bail bonds

2:18:17 Now, if you don't do that, think about the consequences, right? And your very life will be at risk. court and it also deprives you of the ability to defend yourself, right? Because people realize they can't fight it and they can't afford to sit in jail because they could lose their job, they could lose their home, they could lose their family. And what percentage of them did you say?

2:22:12 All right. And if you watch the arraignments, you will see they parade in all of the arrestees of the last 24 hours and they read their charges and they will then set bail. They will make a Or they say, we're going to let you out, but if you don't pay a fine of $1,500 within 60 they will reoffend and end up right back where they were. And what will really be striking to you

2:24:37 people, and there's more of an emphasis on getting them help. And to answer your question, Joe, I just The Quattrone Center did a study that showed that people – they studied people who were jailed or freed for the exact same crime under the exact same circumstances, right? It's kind of a tongue twister. And so the book starts off, On January 26, 2014, Charnelle Mitchell was sitting on her couch with her one-year-old

2:26:47 If she could not pay, she would be kept in a cage until she, quote, sat out her debts That day she became my first client What do you do? But this stuff happens under under the shade of darkness where we don't see it. We don't see potential that's lost, it boggles my mind. There's probably another Lennox Lewis that could have been, And people just become processed.

2:30:26 you're going to answer me yes or no. I just said, yeah. No, I want a yes or a no. Yes. Well, when I Each one is more heartbreaking than the next and when you actually see how it works in action and you live it with And it's a giant part of the entire problem. I don't want you to feel helpless, though. Or Dewey Bozzella or the countless other people that we have talked about, it is beyond belief to be accused of something you didn't do,

2:33:52 like on the first episode of Wrongful Conviction Junk Science, I say, look, And what is the answer to that? That's a bigger problem. But I think part of it is fear of bucking the system. I watched the pride of my 10-year-old daughter, my eight-year-old son, my four year old doesn't get it yet. And saying are as human beings, really, because I think that we are fundamentally good in many ways.

2:37:30 on the most fundamental level and the best part of the human experience. So your listeners who Because voting, you know, in local races especially, local DA's races, local judges' races, So few people vote that your vote literally could be people that need help, who need, you know, us as a society to give them a lift up, victimize so many more people. Many of them have been judged unanimously unqualified by the American Bar Association.

2:40:41 Watch this. that we come back and you say, well, another thing was supposed to happen by now and it's either happened or beginning to happen. But the crime lab, not the prosecutors, a crime lab technician says, you know what? and say you know what why would i want to talk you already have one you do do. Fuck that. And you wield a match here today. I'll put that for sure in my Instagram.

2:43:37 But somebody, I think it was a crime lab technician, whoever it was, some whistleblower You want to have him on the damn show. They followed the letter of the law and sent him right back to death row, which is where he is It's science. It's DNA. evidence death row inmate Anthony that's why I grabbed it because it said right here Cleveland man based solely on circumstantial evidence presented during a trial that took place just 55 days after the crime

2:47:27 that Apanovich belongs on death row. It's a technicality. that courts throw up where, you know, you have to bring the new evidence within Innocenceproject.org. You can get yourself educated about what's going on in your community. As Jason said, our policy group headed by Rebecca Brown is just fantastic. mention, by the way, whose case is still going on and people can make a difference is James Daly.

2:51:05 And they have basically communicated to me, the governor's office, that if he doesn't show contrition, that it's not going to go well for him. So think about the Catch-22 they put me in as his lawyer and him in for a crime he didn't commit to which someone else has confessed to time and time again. And then what he does is he goes into court and changes his mind and says, I no longer want to talk about this because every time he confesses, his family reads about it in the paper.

2:52:17 All of the evidence, the physical evidence leads to him. Yes, it's almost dinner time, exactly. On Michelle Murphy's case, and this touches on a number of gotten a dollar from the state and they've fought every tooth and nail, any compensation for her, It's been an honor to have you on. Bye, everybody.