Joe Rogan Experience #1543 — Brian Muraresku & Graham Hancock Transcript

Transcript

0:00 the joe rogan experience train by day joe rogan podcast by night all day which was very strange it was like a sound coming from nowhere at least i could see you So who wants to start and explain? and fast evidence that the first Christians were using psychedelics and that their religious And I've never done psychedelics. I could hook you up. because the testimony coming out of Hopkins and NYU,

3:49 So before Jerusalem, before Rome, before Mecca, there was a Lucis. these rituals? And is there any that describes the actual contents of this mixture? No, there isn't But people walk away from Eleusis saying that they'd found salvation. And we don't know why or naturally occurring fungus from which you can synthesize LSD. especially in the Middle Ages.

6:41 and he says you can't avoid it. It's fascinating to me that these cultures seem to have hid some of these rituals. And this goes So in the very middle there, you can see, which is both a god and the juice that is pressed from this god. We have literature from the 7th century BC. It's called the Hymn to Demeter, where they record Absolutely. Well done. i'm all for independence

10:34 this mixed thing either, but so In Soma? Oh, I'm sorry. Athens of the potion from Eleusis being used for recreational purposes, and this is roundly And what's fascinating from Eleusis substances in the modern world and how the ancient world used them. about the psychedelics is it's a direct experience that the person has. They have an experience. It's

14:32 Brian not to put himself in that situation. I hope he will work with psychedelics in the future, his whole life without them you know and then really dove head first for his book and kind of can understand from a level of personal experience why psychedelics do lie at the root, I think, everyone who does it comes out of it saying i can't believe that's real yeah i can't i can't

17:48 psychedelic counseling where we could go somewhere and experts both in pharmacology and in medical It was for the ancients. minister, a head of state of any kind, I think it should be obligatory that they have at least a where everything is about to change. The clinical research is advancing. Rick Doblin is moving to I'm hoping they're going to be backdoored in as therapy for people with pre-existing

21:04 And the fact that you have to leave the and somehow or another try not to relapse. who was an NFL player who we believe is the first professional athlete in the US to seek That's right, Ricky Williams. And the fact that these guys can't seek marijuana for relief lacking any initiative or imagination It's very, very insane that that should be the case.

24:19 gonna be fine man yeah and and also the other the other point to to make again the critics try to trip which is really fascinating and which is not easy. You're in there for six hours. I'm better at being me. once in a lifetime, like at a lusus at some later point in your life. And then you have the of Western civilization, but there was another part to them. And it's a part, again, that is

27:54 Christianized Roman empire in the late fourth century. And so there were different attempts to wipe it off the map. I've been to Eleusis. was that there was this transference, like the Eucharist eventually became a placebo. And I mean, I think it's very interesting, so he says that... and the Christian Myth as well? You had to buy copies of it. philology, right? So it's, it's word games and things that only linguists

30:53 is a language isolate, that there is no real relationship between Sumerian and the Indo-European because they can't be corroborated by the ancient texts. So some of these Sumerian words, which is like what he calls the bolt mushroom. Was Allegro's position, if I recall correctly, that the sacred mushroom was Amanita muscaria? And it's why I like the work that Brian has done,

34:11 there's different versions of the Amanita muscaria Yeah, and this is often the case, The joke's on you, stupid. where they tend to grow under pine trees, which is the tree that we use for Christmas trees. have talked about caribou knocking them over being outlawed in Siberia. cards and depictions of christmas almost always contained elves and amanita muscaria mushrooms

37:15 Like, the people that I know that have experienced it That's why it's so confusing. which is where I pick up the scent. At some point in his correspondence with Albert Hoffman, Well, I mean, we have the canonical explanation from the You know, Jesus is born in the Holy Land, but Christianity really takes root in the Greek for consuming the wrong kind of Eucharist. And earlier in this chapter, he calls it a cup of

41:20 Why would wine cause you to die in a Greek world that had no distilled liquor? And here, we don't know what to make of it, but the Corinthians and they're using it recreationally, and they're trying to discourage this. he writes something called the Materia Medica. It's these five books in Greek, and every drug in book 474. He says, if you dissolve nightshade into wine, it will produce fantasias ou aedais,

44:40 No, everything's fine. Jamie will clean it up. have an answer now. I'm not sure if you know this, but earlier this year in May, there were some Frankincense. cannabidiol and cannabinol uh and so it's it's the first they say it's the first example I mean, at least the one you're thinking of. and they were getting everybody high. is psychedelic it is adding to the experience it's adding to the to the setting and again anybody

48:37 It's so rare. it's just purely the way that scholars work, that academics work. And sometimes I think in the case which it was purely was the the bread the wine, the blood and the body of until the 4th century AD, you're talking almost 2000 years, as long as Christianity itself has water, barley, and mint. And again, Hoffman, Wasson, and Ruck thought it was kind of like a primitive

52:28 And there are some who think that that beer actually precedes bread at that moment we call the agricultural revolution, It's possible. It's possible. We haven't done much testing for ergot that far back. I mean, 13,000 years ago. The question right now is kind of, was there beer at all? And there's very early cave art all around the world. So Brian is right. We haven't got the analysis that proves that a psychedelic was in that 13,000-year-old beer. But what we do have 13,000 years ago and going back much further, 27, 40, 50,000 years ago, is art. And that art really only makes sense as psychedelic art. I mean, where else, but in a visionary state, do you see an entity that is part

55:27 written a book called The Mind in the Cave, they remembered their visions and painted them on cave walls. And those visions might well be a And I don't know why nobody was doing this and combining the humanities and the linguistics with with with Was there a real issue? who can think about the humanities those who do study it find it very, very hard to get gainful employment. You can't get paid to do

58:25 find actual hard evidence of wine that's been spiked. And ideally, that would be spiked wine So I spent a long time looking for ergotized beer or any beer that was spiked. testing. And so I flew there and I talked to her about it. And she said, unfortunately, they've all You flew to Greece by yourself In the wake of Alexander the Great, who was called the Great for a reason, the Greek influence after the fourth, third centuries BC stretched all the way from Iberia, Spain and Portugal, to Afghanistan

1:01:17 researching ergot in different languages. That was my first clue. You know, in English, Cornesuelo de Centeno in Spanish. And a couple of things started popping up. if you scroll to the bottom This is a pre-Roman population called the Vakai, or the Vaxians. includes very boring things like the tomato or the potato or tobacco, but it has these nightshades

1:04:18 ushering the deceased into the other world. They actually use that phrase. Exactly. called Emporion, but maybe they make for good mixing vessels, that the first thing you think of when you think about the ancient Greeks is not Spain. the Greek presence was there. But at the time, by the second century BC, because the Greeks were already in these other port cities,

1:06:54 Yeah. Oh, And that's what I found next. And so the vessel Catalonia, in Northeast Spain, close to the border with France. And to be totally honest, that's on the northeast coast and we don't know really what's going on so these people don't stick to the coast same file there, we can just click through a bunch of the images and the kinds of things that they

1:10:02 And this is 3rd century BC. you stick incense in the top of it believe it or not. there you go across Europe. So if Tryptolemus tells you anything, it tells you that the mysteries went west, and sacred stuff. of the empire. Imagine getting to Eleusis 2,000 years ago, 2,500 years ago. And I think Brian is suggesting that a similar sort of thing was happening in the ancient world with a different substance.

1:13:49 It's interesting. And if he went to Italy, why wouldn't he go to Spain? But it's so uniform that in the three different locations, you have the same imagery. That's exactly right. to teach people to do something they already knew how to do, Just ritual ablutions. And she believes it's a household shrine that is specifically dedicated to reenacting the mysteries of Demeter and

1:16:25 So that's a column that was proven by petrographic analysis who is the mother of the witch Circe to whom dogs are being sacrificed in an underworld journey where the living and dead are communing, that was only used by the god Dionysus after the release of the 1978 book, The Road to Eleusis. And so, you know, his career kind of went into a nosedive.

1:19:16 and they subjected this chalice to analysis. And what they found was beer. And it is the first and most compelling data And he's not salty about it. Yes. Um, how, how is he holding up physically? 83? He's 85 now. 85. Yeah. How is he holding up physically? who was his mentor in many ways. if you look him up There's really no reason to not. vindication emerges. Psychedelic, man. It was really emotional. I mean, it's still emotional

1:22:57 excavated. And for, for Ruck, it's, or for the field in general, I think it's, it's, it's really, and any people who've experienced LSD know. And next thing you know. I think you just saved my marriage. Are you going to do an audio version of it? It wasn't, or on, no, Apple. Yes, you wrote the foreword. It's now something that people are allowed to have.

1:25:39 was Ruck right about what he writes about the Christians? And he does write about I do not know very many people that have had successful experiences with it. and the old ways of doing things. It's just, for a person who's experienced it, it's so strange the contrast between the experience itself and the on drugs when i had this conversation with him more than a decade ago probably 15 years ago so when when

1:28:47 But part of the madness of our society, Those powers that run and control our world today don't want people thinking for themselves. It's responsible for the Breonna Taylor murder, which is being discussed right now and people are protesting. And it treats us like children. For the longest time, the only way we've been explained to, the only way these subjects

1:31:44 Yeah. crisis to add to its power, to dominate people's lives, it falls apart, the idea of criminalizing it, We don't need to have a law that that harm that they've done to somebody else. We don't He's a fan of the Amanita. where he talks about this ergotized beer. And I did look for it, by the way. Jamie, can you go to the Louvre? in the early 20th century and not many people have seen since.

1:36:20 Catholic priest, who happens to be an expert botanist and herbalist. So I called up are what she calls G408 and G409. trying to figure out what they're adding to the wine. So pretty old. on the next close-up. This is how this stuff stays secret. These are women, very similar Dionysian tradition, adding plants and herbs to their wine. They're like, woo!

1:40:05 yeah very much mushroom very mushroom yeah i mean that it would be hard to describe that I showed you that vase from Spain. typically how an initiate of the Dionysian 40 BC, and before that, this is typically Number 15. What is that thing above his shoulder, though? ruckba leaves that they would put their stash. herbs and plants. recipes. A lot of them are just medicinal. You know, not all of them resulted in these fantastic

1:44:07 Circe is routinely, again, mixing Wow. statuary like the Borghese vase. I was interested, the whole point I wrote this book is, again, to This is Scorpion I. It is. And we're not going to talk about the underworld journey in Egypt with Graham Hancock for that great challenge of the journey that follows that follows death and there's no doubt and that often take the form of part animal, part human, baryanthropes.

1:48:29 I would say they had a very balanced approach to death. they were afraid of death they wanted to ready themselves for the more useful people. And as a result, the ancient Egyptians would say to confront a better death. And just as there are many other aspects of ancient new perspective on this, they rejected it so horrifically. And they were mocking,

1:51:36 They don't want to consider that possibility because they feel that they've got ancient It's a very dangerous idea to contemplate. We should consider it. were excavated from that trench were then moved over and used to build what are called the Bali Temple and the Sphinx Temple, where in some cases you find blocks of limestone that weigh close to 200 tons.

1:54:06 And that process of restoring and renovating the Sphinx has gone on down the ages. And it's in those that you see this characteristic undulating pattern And the only argument against that really The reaction to that notion and this hard geological data that Robert Shock provided was just the most disturbing part But much more recently, he's also settled on the date of roughly 12,000 years old

1:56:45 on Skype before that. What an amazing man he was. Such a radical, such an incendiary, you know, We don't think they're properly psychedelic just yet. I mean, all the ingredients that- They weren't native to Egypt. and what Andrew Koh and the team there found myrtle, They just, they love spiking wine. Preservation, like in the terebinth for example you

2:00:07 someone inhaling the juniper, You might have to skip forward, but this is them essentially preparing... Yeah, suck a goat head. look at him it's like oh he just wants to put on a robe and dance and he kind of looks like a guy Wow. and is this something that other people this is what's weird about this video it seems like one domains of experience we have the spirits who shamans encounter in altered states of consciousness.

2:04:12 And the only thing that really explains these kind of experiences, where any one of us can actually share that experience and have that experience, is psychedelics. but I saw flying saucers. Of course, of course, we gain access to other levels of reality that are normally closed off to our senses. all around the world have had those experiences. and uh they seem they seem to be explaining to me that i take myself too seriously

2:07:46 who can help us to be better people and perhaps to be a better civilization. And you think about the translation between ancient Hebrew and then to Latin and to Greek hard to imagine any other state of consciousness apart from the psychedelic state and what you're It takes courage to do this work. Of course. the same thing i've i've consumed ayahuasca analogs myself and and they are very like ayahuasca but

2:11:28 Why did I hurt that person in that way? Garden of Eden and the story of the Garden of Eden and the role that the serpent plays in that story. And that ancient fresco that shows Adam and Eve standing by mushrooms is very bizarre as well, And that's what we need. We need much Doctrine of the Faith, and the Vatican museums, and all the catacombs in Rome. And I

2:14:17 There was never one monolithic form of the faith, and people didn't go to bed in 33 AD Yeah, this is called the pagan continuity hypothesis. The idea that Christianity wasn't We hired a professional guide who was a professor. We had this amazing guide. And I said, probably the pineal gland. you can find it. very fortunate to meet him before he died. And he was showing me some stuff that he was working on.

2:17:24 No, especially if it was common in ancient Greece. to the Ephesians and Colossians and Galatians. You know, Christianity is born in Galilee, part of the world would have availed themselves of the kind of I think you want to find it in Greece to tie it to Dionysus. You want to find it in Italy to tie it to the Christians, I go to the Pat McGoverns and Andrew Coase and all the top archaeobotanists in Europe,

2:20:43 there was this farmhouse in Scafati, in there, it wasn't a chemical analysis. That's obviously more finely graded. The sample was in Hyosciamine is one of those tropane alkaloids, Now, to understand that, And so this potion of many different toxic herbs and plants But then when he tries to commit suicide, he's unable to. I mean, I wrote this as kind of...

2:24:04 in different places. One of the places authors place his birth in different places. which is why I spent so much time going through the catacombs scholar, Ramsey McMullen. He's considered one of the premier authorities of the ancient Roman world. The big question is if the wine drunk at the refrigerium are going to be interested in continuing this research and and contributing to this research

2:27:16 But I think it would be interesting, Brian, having written this as a scientific and an academic and a research exercise, It would be nice to know that that experience lay ahead of us. am i oh sorry sorry okay sorry so the i think the the best way that i mean my dream is to see this on the screen so i've been talking to a couple of uh development teams a couple of production

2:29:26 So do you have a place where you're bringing this? Supernatural. A lot of weird stuff was happening in my life in 2007, 2008. After I read those ground, but you don't need to know anything about history or archaeology, let alone archaeobotany and you can tell me about your psychedelic experience that you had with Graham. hardback of america before which we which we talked about the last time i was on your show

2:32:03 Yes. It takes a lot to admit that one may have been wrong, and I'm glad that Michael had the courage to put that tweet out there. schools and universities, no longer to accept at face value the opinions of so-called experts in And I'm glad that people are waking up to this. And thank you, Brian.