Joe Rogan Experience #1545 — W. Keith Campbell Transcript

Transcript

0:00 The Joe Rogan Experience. This is great. The Red Pill, what's the name? Nice studio. It feels good to have you here. Thank you. It feels good to be here. It feels good. Nice studio. Well, if somebody has a mental disorder, I'm going to find a bunch of people who test as mentally ill, but aren't. person or a self-absorbed person or whatever. If it works for you, then it's not a disorder.

2:11 who doesn't pay a lot of taxes. Guy sounds like he's kind of killing it to me. How's that a That's the point. impairment to get the diagnosis. So if there's no impairment, it's really not, you're not supposed So if somebody comes in, though, this person's coming in is probably somebody who's very successful in a lot of things and has problems probably in their relationships.

4:22 And he decides to talk to you. criticizes you, do you get hostile too quickly and look unstable? Is your marriage okay? I don't People who are less agreeable make more money. with your loved ones. so wealth and status. all the time and you're manipulating people and using people it can be more of a problem just go have a hunting accident if you're in if you're kind of the dick and

8:29 What is narcissism? When you define it, what is your definition of narcissism? and in this trait are kind of think they're really important think they should be getting a lot of attention think their traits. And then there's this clinical form or psychiatric form called narcissistic You can make really poor decisions because your ego is so big. You just overinvest in something

11:40 Yeah. where are my followers? Why aren't I getting the followers? But that's the weirdest thing to ever say. down holding me back they know that they can't silence me. I have this fantasy about a great am, this illusion. But it's usually not crazy. That's a grandiose delusion, but you wouldn't call that narcissistic because she wasn't really, her personality wasn't really narcissistic. She

15:08 Hmm. The psychological disorders that we're aware of, the ones like narcissism, because i don't want to screw up he's the best one-handed guru on earth please do that you know So if your father is a narcissist, Yeah. So they're heritable. And maybe the other, you know, 30, 40% is something in the environment. but it's also their environment. we just can't really explain.

18:52 They're just different people. You're not threatening the kids. to be that yourself be a good role model and. And that's, you know, something, you know, we all struggle with. The advice I give with parenting, I hate to call it advice, So I say CPR, it's compassion, passion, responsibility. They can be a little narcissistic, but compassion's a big buffer.

21:17 that give them that passion, sometimes we use the word flow in psychology. I don't know if they then say, you know, I failed, I screwed up, it's on me, and keep going. And so taking responsibility for your And then they're looking at you and they're like, get to a certain area it's this kind of blind spot. And then I lit when, you know, the world's insane,

23:37 Right. are. It's a very challenging question, and I think about this one a lot. And I'm going to give you to change things, that piece of narcissism, which we sometimes call fearless dominance or boldness, They'll just kill them because they're like predators. That should be mine. You have to work. But if you're willing to take risks and be bold, people will be friends with you.

27:34 small thing in the relationships world there's this this term called capitalization so when But I've got a couple of friends who are just, they're not insecure. Yeah, please. I thought we were friends man It's weird. Yeah. No, no, no, no. It's maybe a different movie. how they interface with each other it all plays this huge part in until they get punched in the face.

30:36 get in there and say you're an idiot. The problem is that hard moments are the ones you grow from, where people fail all the time right like you go to school you just don't set up the world where people fail all the time. Right. Like, you go to school, you just don't fail all the time anymore. Because, well, when the other kids score, then these kids feel bad.

32:03 And competition is fun because it matters. It's like you do baseball, you strike out two-thirds of the time, you miss or something. Helicopter parenting. You don't, it just, it just crushes you. And your ego you just can't have an ego and and and that's why big Well, that's one of the reasons why I've always told men, particularly young guys, that jiu-jitsu is great.

34:38 lose at a game of jujitsu. It seems very devastating. But once you lose a bunch of times, like a person who washes their hands too much and never gets exposed to germs. Like you need get any damage from it really just get sort of breezed up a little bit but the the benefit of A lot of them have very, very, very strong egos, sometimes overwhelmingly so.

36:44 that they really never recover from it. You fell short in a number of areas. And then I also have to work on my psychology. and where were you lacking and what was wrong with your approach and then you and then it gives you I'm going to break this down. one of his managers was a historian of boxing. So Mike Tyson would watch old films of like the this man down. And this was imparted in him when he was a small boy. He was 13 years old.

40:11 who takes him in who's also a hypnotist, who's also a master of psychology in regards to combat sports. how to mold him psychologically and a person like that ego is very important like you have like he That's cool. So there's pros and cons there. Jamie actually played it for me once. I mean, in the documentary, they go over five or six different situations

42:41 Yeah, he was... I mean, theoretically, it makes sense. You know, one-on-one competition, it's not about a team, you see this in teams all the time. So the old story is the quarterback goes in front of the You need someone to train you correctly. I think Michael Jordan was so hard on himself Right, or a good internet troll. mentality where winning at all costs if you're not with me fuck you right we're gonna i'm gonna win yeah and also one of the

47:11 he must have felt that they were tremendous failures. And then he had to make corrections. people you love like can can you work that into the equation right or is it just fucked her i'll And, I mean, that was back in the day. hot wife it kind of goes it's kind of part of the package right it's kind of brand it seems like it maybe an island you know keep moving always show everybody that you have the nicest thing step out

49:55 But it's a very demanding lifestyle. status i mean trying to be happy because you're cooler than other people like you have higher But it wouldn't be like, oh, I can go buy another Bugatti. But then he went and got the new wife. Good. But it's curious. right, doing things she doesn't enjoy doing. and banging out 12 hours a day that's exciting to you?

52:27 They got a team. And then social media. and so we looked at narcissism we're like oh god the people who are narcissistic have more friends really done a lot of comparison social media work, like is narcissism higher on Instagram than It's also the easiest to lie, I mean, I guess that's more – That's what's crazy. Believe it or not, this is one of the biggest steakhouses in hollywood and it's like a known place where

55:31 and I go, well, you're doing very well, TikTok and Instagram influencers exposed for renting fake private jet set. Oh, my God. I am. like over a curb. This dude who is on a skateboard drinking cranberry juice singing along to Fleetwood Mac. what this the hero we need maybe because like it's all so the way he's doing it like there's There's nothing crazy

59:20 to be some chick on a fake jet set pretending, here I am with my pouty lips. But he's having fun. So you get a chance to see these moments. And one of the things that I was saying is, weird is the headphones right but and honestly this is the best way to have a conversation because Keith, I liked what you said there. We're both good people here. a podcast you're gonna have some hiccups and clunky but those hiccups reassure people that oh this is

1:02:48 a business where they were building virtual reality systems to treat PTSD in troops. And they said the reason that worked, it seemed so much more real than movies but it brings people in because it makes it seem real. but there's some cookie-cutter shows where you kind of see it coming along. And you walk out of there going, did I even like that? What is his name again, Jamie?

1:04:46 that that's that one movie i'm like i don't want to watch this one i believe that actor could do Mad at you. Like anything can happen at any moment, that's that's the case with pulp fiction as well and a lot of tarantino's movies do that he's very But in different ways yeah you know some people make I always wonder if you're in a bad environment, how much does that shape you as a human being?

1:07:37 And so I'm going to be an asshole too. I want to be a better person. Yeah. okay. And I remember thinking the difference in the way I felt around her was like, is goes back in the old self-research not really specific in what kind of bad thing it is. Trauma also creates personality in some people. But the positive things are the trauma can give you a motivation to grow and go seek

1:11:16 to seek a way out. And sometimes that path to growth can lead you to a better place than you and then when they just sort of stayed the same way. And that doesn't seem to be the case. People So there's a real high dropout rate in therapy. Get 100 people who are narcissistic and put 50 in one condition and 50 in the other. They range from the classic, more psychodynamic therapies. You know, if you were in New York and

1:14:26 patterns of thinking and let's figure those out this what happens you know Do you really think that's what she's been doing? because people are mad at them. Right. But we've done that. I mean, because I'm more important than you. But it might be something, I see there's a problem, I wonder if many of them have sort of just developed a pattern and this pattern has served them to a certain extent and this pattern involves their perceptions of the outside world, their perceptions of themselves and then these things that they tell themselves and this way of looking at themselves that you would clearly define as narcissistic but they almost look at it like a tool. And this is sort of, even though it's a crude tool, it's allowed them to navigate the waters

1:17:09 How do you want to make yourself work? And if you find, you know, everybody's like, well, And you're like, no, you're an asshole. where people are like, And some of that successful behavior is people being assholes. A little bit. They treat them in a way that make the women not feel in control of the situation, or they I'm really committed. I'll do whatever you want. So because I'm more invested in the relationship, I've got the least

1:19:34 And you're game playing in that relationship. involved with somebody who's narcissistic, they usually start off kind of exciting and satisfying. And the person who's narcissistic goes, And then the problem starts. So if they find somebody better, they'll just bail on you and find somebody better. And then there's this weird thing they do. and thinking like,

1:22:30 shit. Men with thongs. I know, they scare me. You found a man with his thong, which is classic. Men with thongs. I've had friends break up, and then you go to each individual pages, Making out with this Brazilian dude. and I want to now It just makes you really be concerned. You were in love with them. Like all the friends with the lake at the party this weekend and I was home, you know, and it's just brutal.

1:25:06 Like what I say with, you know, my daughter on social media is as much exposure as a 1930s movie star. And so you get those problems. They're just dancing. It seems more silly and more childish. Face shopping? This is the new thing. She ran it through this app, and it turned me into a pretty girl. This is, questions i ask you what kind of esteem are you getting from putting out fake pictures

1:27:55 where she adjusted because everyone knows what she actually looks like. You're a famous person. bad about what they look like. because of her attractiveness. Photoshop. But 99% of the time, there's no photoshop so it's hard for me to discount the photoshop even though i know you're photoshopped so i mean there's old studies like this in the I don't know.

1:31:07 Yeah. I don't know what the number is, but it's a lot. And some of these girls are like very pretty, or a weirdness to the facial structure is negative. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of high coefficients and stuff. pictures made her look like a cartoon like all of them like she had like a filter that was like She had a cheap phone and then she ran They don't worry about it as much.

1:34:05 do you know what Sandbox is? and a haptic feedback vest but eventually it's going to mimic And I think that's to take over the world because once you can just dial in and immerse in this and and then you start I think we passed that about five years ago. to a narcissist that they're a narcissist? Is there a way you can help to a narcissist if they're a narcissist?

1:36:54 and you're working your way up the ladder and your boss is a narcissist? these kind of yes men or yes women that follow them around. is you can just become kind of a sycophant keep records, make sure the person's not crossing any lines. If they cross lines, go to HR. It's the worst. horrible things try to get them promoted out get them moving to a better job you just you're so

1:39:21 So there's been this explosion in psychedelic research. these research centers are really interested in MDMA and psilocybin for treatment. And they're who should get all the credit for this, and then a follow-up, three-month follow-up, looking at personality changes, and also getting peer reports of personality. So not just measuring that. So then I was talking to Brandon like a week or two ago, and I'm like, I'm going on Joe

1:42:58 Really? Yeah. that's with creativity I think. So we're not really seeing that. And so I don't sexologist so he started studying narcissism because it was like self-pleasuring, like self-love. Indians did it. really, it's like a very much a healing thing. But what they're talking about is spiritual. and a lot of it is guesswork. Like, what would you, like, if I gave you, like,

1:47:48 they drink the ayahuasca. So you have to have a placebo controlled trial. So if you're in the jungle and you're drinking a placebo. have, you know, have you drink a cup of ayahuasca or a cup of tea that tastes like ayahuasca, That was a very heavy ego death experience you feel like your ego sort of scrambling to put its pants back on and tie its back even the way i talk like when i'm saying things a lot of times i'm saying things i want

1:51:01 Maybe for one of the first times clearly in my life, Like, you just molecule in the universe. Everything's gone. So I've got a million questions for him to ask, too. 5-methoxy DMT was really, it's more, I think one thing I did get out of it was that realization that how much the ego really does have a grasp on what you're doing all the time, even if you don't think it does.

1:54:33 You're literally made out of stardust and there's just all this weirdness to it's like come on I gotta try. McKenna didn't enjoy it. partly why I study. It's kind of entertaining. It's big. And you can have an ego that's all whatever quantum fields into nothingness. I felt like, ocean and I just kind of drifted off into nothingness or it kind of just drifted away.

1:57:19 There's something about these majestic experiences So here's the problem with somebody like me doing this kind of work is the big side effect of, I mean, one of the big side effects of ayahuasca. And it gets very hard when you see some of this spiritual stuff happen to go back and go, oh, it's just fake. They see it, but it's very hard. Do I say it's the collective unconscious?

1:59:42 seem to think you're a loon. Yeah. So I started working in this shamanic context and seeing what's going on. I think we kind of suck. great at chess. But then they're around someone who's an amazing gymnast and they're like, oh, And then I'm watching you do the uneven bars and fly through the air and land on the balance beam. what they can do with their plant medicine and you experience what they're saying when they're

2:02:35 If I'm in the jungle and I want to study ayahuasca, I don't read a bunch of books and do a study. What do you do with tobacco? And I've heard it's a very powerful master medicine. They have this very powerful chewing tobacco where they take like a huge thing and make when they go on these experiences? Does anybody do that? or do they just give you a trip and what you find

2:05:06 are kind of attaching to you. This is why it doesn't make any sense psychologically. And And some of the discussions they're having down there are, do you frame it more in terms of a Western frame? Is that good or bad, though? and probably some Westerners get down there and try to... synthetic psilocybin i'll have a psychedelic experience i'm using synthetic psilocybin so

2:07:36 So there's a spiritual energy that's supposed to be the active agent in here. like licensed professionals. any control over it but there's a lot of people that don't want to go to the jungle no no and i like you were saying. So they're a little more gentle. So it probably won't be as profound. And then you try to do some repair work. that that is just who you are forever.

2:10:52 he's down here he's he's done amazing he's given all this money to maps and done he's been a huge I sometimes think of those glass—my metaphors always suck, but I think of those glass animals don't do it at home. Ah, God. who wants to figure out narcissism can grab this, read it and get, kind of know what's going on and that's my effort ufos yeah i just i'm like

2:14:33 Pretty good one, yeah. Well, one of the things when you talk about narcissism and ego, one of the things that But if you are full of shit, You're interesting in a way that no one else is, because you've experienced this godlike channels uh ufo from another planet and she was telling me all this nonsense uh that all the You're not saying. experiences novel unique experiences that you haven't had how how do you know? You don't know.

2:17:55 You're a channeler. Yeah. Oh, sure. That's why you never take pictures of them. going to develop the unfuckable white guy scale? Not happening. Nope, not this lifetime. and make them seem incredibly significant. When people lie a lot, they are not good at detecting lies. And they're these stories that they don't resonate when someone's like we're talking earlier about people being like authentic and yeah authenticity

2:21:29 it was... Black bears are frequent up there, and I bet it was a bear that had a hurt paw or I've seen a wolverine. Because you never see them. tell a person that you saw i was in the forest i saw a sasquatch like automatically people roll many people are full of shit and it's such an attractive thing to see like if you if you tell I'm getting it. Yeah, exactly. So they get that state or their highway hypnosis or something.

2:23:40 And they hypnotize me. It's the weirdest thing. And I'm listening to him flying. Legit pilot, has been an enormous portion of his life and knows a tremendous And they really got into it well of the size of aircrafts. explained how it actively blocked radar, it actively They don't know. was saying, we get They move with a speed that defies all of our current understandings of how things are

2:26:57 So here's my question then. These things are real as far as we know. Boring and close and in your face. And he talked about their ability to travel the same way that TikTok And they were trying a bunch of different scientists and part of the problem was that the scientific process requires multiple people know he would have the wrong information so if he ever decided to leak it it would be nonsense

2:30:14 from this world, maybe that's bullshit too. Maybe this is stuff that we have. Maybe this is something So do you think that when this becomes something people talk about, that will change people's I don't. know something maybe they did inform him of something it's uh it's it's a crazy subject Like a show. It's weird. Yeah. I went to the Keck Observatory.

2:32:53 Oh, my God. yeah and it's just not there i talked to a guy who was just down in a virgin islands captain marcus it's my my captain fired and lose my license and so is there like protected waters around it it's not it's really Everyone knew he was a creep. And it's crazy. we'd probably be way more open never war or violence they'd be like but it works in small groups like if you me and jamie just live together

2:36:10 And it's always that. they've all been eaten up by cultures are so nice to go visit yeah normal people yeah it's it's also one's hard too and you sleep better in that one i mean i think that life is i don't know i i was One of the things I wanted to talk to you about is, do you think that one of the reasons why It's chaos. You can't figure it out You know, this is where you get Elon Musk.

2:39:43 going to be able to make something like you and put it on the computer right i mean that's the the soul since the 50s or 60s. That's where they want to go. and thousands of years. We're just soft predators. He's just stoked. I mean, we're the hunter, not the hunted most of the time. And you always got to give something to get something. And so, you know, there's that trade-off and I, and I, again, part of me loves this.

2:43:38 I'm like, God, I wish they blew the internet up. You do miss loved ones and family, but you don't necessarily miss the hum of society. it's like i can't get enough of this world. it'll help people at the very least manage this weird state All right. So my dad's William. It was a lot of fun.