Joe Rogan Experience #1588 — Lawrence Wright Transcript

Transcript

0:00 the joe rogan experience train by day joe rogan podcast by night all day I was like, oh, still works. No, she had just seen the documentary, and she was really worked up. At least you used to see that. And it was like a scene in a movie where the record skips. Cause not online rather on, like they just kept sending this shit to my mailbox i thought it was like a self-help book

3:33 So when I talked to this guy who was my neighbor, I really didn't have a deep background in understanding it. I didn't pursue it. But in our country, there's a smorgasbord of religions you can choose from. And so Scientology was on my list. It's a blues band. We play, you know, Texas, Louisiana music. And we used to back before the pandemic. We need a lot of rehearsal now.

7:31 It's like that didn't raise any red flags to people. Cruise or John Travolta for their acting, But you also think, are they a little nuts? I say you're a Scientologist. That's a little different. A lot of people were drawn to it. I think there's something there for that. because they want fame, right? people who want acceptance and love and then you make them beg for it they're essentially like

12:25 It gives you something where you feel like, you're like, wow, I am making progress. that didn't have a belt structure. But it's to give people this sense of progress, give people But they, especially I can speak about the Mormons. You know, they're a lot like Scientology in some ways by the color of their buggies. So in this little wouldn't use them in the fields, but they'd use them to help load the hay in the barn.

16:39 looked like DC-8s and dropped them into volcanoes where they were exploded by a hydrogen bomb and And I think people have a hunger, especially in our time, you know, for strong communities. know where it's going and is humanity even going to make it and you're not going to make it no You need us. And they'll also help you, you know, save civilization.

19:56 jamie vernon and i sitting here having a conversation that this is this is life and Now, I don't want to be decrepit. Whoa. You think you missed the cut? just your physical tissue and Is there a thing that creates whatever consciousness is, whatever your embodiment is? you know, this is an empty vessel. And, you know, where is the life force Those are the top guys.

25:29 I'm not going to think about a number Like, he's not going to make it. But other than that, I just think of if it comes to a point where there's a real health crisis, where my starts really failing then i'm sure i'm going to Oh, It's a better life. and crime and hardship like when i'm filling out a form you know when they you know you come to the year and they have

28:21 That's a crazy thing to think of, isn't it? family and with my work but you know it's uh it's not given to us apparently to understand what's what else there might be if there's anything well that's why religion is so go through a lot. I have an uncle that converted to Judaism when I was a child. And it was one of If there's a God out there, It was Catholicism.

31:05 he just opted out yeah well he went to their well did they have their version of the afterlife is it was a way of finding social acceptance you know I was not much of an And when that happens, when those pious people get control, then the rules start to harden. Or it could be you could talk in tongues or something like that. Well, you must be really spiritual.

33:49 and you pay very dearly for it, but they're all a notch in your belt. Never had a second draft. uh you know he would he would tell a story yeah well you're being very charitable because No telling how many. himself of being blind case and So he sort of was treating him himself. I mean, I think there's also some deception and there's also some fuckery going on oh yeah just but he believes that's all in the service of the great message that he's trying to

38:34 it was $50,000 she was going to have to pay. They'll tell you where he is. trying to approach it yeah it's like the science fiction version of showgirls like there's movies And it reads like a 10-year-old writing a story without anyone going, when I was working on that story for The New Yorker, So he was shelling Mexico, which is probably not a, it was a hostile action. But he thought that he had come upon a Japanese submarine and chased around dropping depth charges everywhere.

42:19 Well, that's interesting. You know, he awarded them to himself. It's a weird thing. to them when you saw them. was people that were claiming to have special touch and they could use their chi and they could So you have these students who are part of this horseshit. And they'll fall to the ground. and it gives them the sense of community and family and you have to give in to whatever

46:11 It exists everywhere. Especially in martial arts, traditionally, it's very hard to fake because you have to spar. We want to give in to the main alpha for whatever reason. Oh. Yeah. And I said, Tina, there are more reporters than Branch Davidians up there right now. and you could see these children looking out the windows, they were leaving behind everybody they knew.

49:15 and there was jim jr who was black and then there was Stephen and who is the natural son and then And they took an earth mover and took a hill down, you know, half of a hill. and suddenly decided he had to remove the entire group. They've been raptured off to South America. And so I was interested, you know, that, you know, he just had all sorts of anxieties so I went to talk to him, and he said, I'll do it on one condition.

53:35 Everybody was dead. the power of a religious belief in a personality like Jim Jones, It's almost strange that there's not more. you know remember the blind yoga instructor And, you know, Shom Shinrikyo is the name of it. And they were very adept. worried about. And he said the way in which, you know, like high school kids can create computer viruses now.

57:23 group of followers that unflinchingly just listen to everything they say mistake and people like women Jesus makes mistakes like you know yeah how do It's not just that. Yeah, the psychiatrist I was interviewing, Unfortunate. You know, I suppose that there are a lot of people that want to be that person and aren't. Yeah. But it's just a strange, it's like, you know, there's these natural patterns that you can

1:02:05 and gets all these people to follow them, What's it saying? real Mary. Yeah. Yeah. Give me some. I don't think it's going grow i have to say you're not gonna be franchising that coming soon to a strip mall i love australian accents don't get me wrong yeah but Have you written much about the Catholic Church? But Matt made a sort of tactical error when he invited a witch to come talk.

1:05:28 But I just found him a fascinating guy. But it's not that there's not great Catholics. Did you have such an experience? Yeah. It was called Jamaica Plain. But fortunately, there was no sexual abuse. And so we're up on top of this bluff, and we're praying and this sort of thing. These fucking wild-ass kids had got these rifles, The counselor was a youngish guy.

1:10:03 And I'm not sure that bringing girls into the Boy Scouts is the right decision. it's just there's something very strange about that these like whether it's the catholic church You could have a Catholic Church, it's Yes, I do. And so, you know, I thought, well, that's interesting. and this is Tina again. telling police and various, and sheriffs, deputies,

1:13:36 in America you know and these are cops But there was only one conviction, And I went up to Olympia and I spent a lot of time talking to the cops and, you know, trying to piece together what had actually happened. And Erica, the oldest daughter, had made this outcry. bones? Yeah, we did. It was an elk bone. And well, that's not exactly, you found an elk bone? That's So it turned out one of the cops had taken these girls in for physical inspection.

1:17:45 the preacher took that back to the church, and the gossip started, and it gets into the ears And she started this congregation. Paula was her name. And what happened after that, during that period of time, these kinds of stories took root in daytime talk shows. I think, you know, the whole abortion discussion, Well, I don't remember it, but my daughters wouldn't lie.

1:22:34 Fran and Dan had operated it for years. on a private jet from a daycare center in South Austin and then kill the giraffe And she was sitting on the lap of, I forgot, it might have been her mother. Eventually, Fran and Dan were exonerated. Like, think about how humans I mean, I have a calendar that can tell you oh i had a I have strategies to try to remember, you know, like why I walked downstairs.

1:27:16 And I had, you know, this elaborate, I had almost as long as your table, you know, boxes of notes. attorneys would intervene and they were saying this wasn't so long ago it was in the 90s yeah And there's real evidence that you can do that, that you can sit someone down and impart or implant a fake memory of an event, particularly under hypnosis. and giving these people...

1:30:21 of you know the conventions of experimentation have changed but a And so I got out of the car, and I tugged on the calf, and I helped. know this is you know we're on time. And I used to hypnotize people. That should be 13, no? this is really irresponsible. I said, I'd like for you to hypnotize me. It was the 20th anniversary of the Kennedy assassination.

1:35:10 You know, the politics were off the rails. And so she put me under, regressed my memories, And you were looking for a child. remember what was your reaction how old are you at the time 13 i guess yeah but it's a very strange On the other hand, it was totally paralyzed. You know, if it was going to happen anywhere, it seemed like Dallas would be the right spot.

1:39:18 it shows up huh you can see how it can't read can't read all that. Well, it says, welcome Mr. Kennedy to Dallas. Yeah, that was on our doorstep that morning. This woman was holding a sign, and she flapped it down on top of Ambassador Stevenson's head. yeah I love Dallas. Yeah. And they never released it because it was very anti-American. I mean, that's when it really hit the United States like what was that like for you

1:44:28 And pandemic, public health, I've always been fascinated by the kinds of people. I mean, just horrifying. and I thought, Right. And in January, I began to hear about this unidentified virus in China. A year and a half, I guess. I mean, there were – see, I did the research, and I talked to the experts. So I did all the research. And that's what happened.

1:50:28 research and i wouldn't be in this job if i didn't you know but part of the time my hero's on a In the in the going back to what I got wrong, you know, everything unfolded exactly as I had anticipated, unfortunately. But I didn't anticipate how people would self-isolate so Would you write it for, what was it, for New Yorker? It's a tragic story. Well, it's an insane and in our lifetime unprecedented time where there's never been a moment where people have been asked to stop doing everything

1:54:10 take extremely drastic measures and that was a lot of what we feared was going to be coming with You see a lot of activity. Take out airlines. than we've ever seen it go So you don't transmit so much. And, you know, but Strongland said, there's going to be a lot of economic damage that's going to last for quite a long time Is there a more vulnerable business to be in than a bar that plays

1:59:14 but so I think are a lot of the We lost Cap City Comedy Club in Austin, which is one of the best clubs in the world. when and how and what to do and measures to take place i've been doing these uh shows at Yeah. It was stunning how quickly it overtook the contagion. There's somewhere in the neighborhood of as much as half the people that get it When I was a kid, you know, I grew up in the polio era.

2:02:31 Because onset as an adult was so unusual. And I'm going to take it. and don't want to try some, healthy, you know, young soldier. to the CDC and But it was the H1N1 strain, which was 1918. were already kind of on board what pig was that? Oh, some story. David ran into some pig, you know, God knows. And so and grabbed the pig by his ears and pulled him off to the side of the road

2:08:25 And a lot of people had. Take it to the CDC. vaccinated before there were hundreds of cases of Guillain-Barre. And a couple of dozen people died. Don't wait to see if it spreads. You know, it was an election year, you know, a novel disease, you know, we haven't seen. Do you take any extraordinary measures to protect your health? or older people that are more at risk.

2:13:03 You know, they wear masks. And I've talked to a lot of these people. You start looking at elderly people where they And they were going to have 100 million doses by the end of the year. that claim that they have vaccine Because it has to be insanely cold. imagination about what could possibly take place or how does this how do we bounce back like there's

2:17:47 where a lot of people are moving. A lot of people in the West are leaving because of the fires. I think that's the, and also there are places inside Texas like Austin that are tolerant and interesting. I had an opportunity to buy David Koresh's Mustang at one point in time. Yeah. It always comes up, doesn't it? compound and this one guy with this uh this vision and there's there's it's funny, it's like we have these tolerant people,

2:21:55 growing up and you know dallas had the reputation in the 60s of being like the most religious city So we knew all these people pretty well. And years later, the church had kind of gone into decline, and I went to see him several times And then over Easter, Well, he was never convicted. How about that? Well, there was no witness. But the kid was never, and it turned out Walker really was having an affair with the daughter of our previous minister, Lucy Goodrich, who called herself Lucy Papillon.

2:26:06 I remember that. I remember at the end of the sermon, people would come up and he would embrace them. well then there's also the putting yourself in this position of being the uh ambassador of the Walker Raley. He married another wealthy woman, There he is, yeah. And Peggy, his wife, in a coma. She lived for like 26 years. You can check to see when she passed away. Never regained consciousness, but was, you know, in a coma for that entire. And then it became a homicide.

2:29:31 running a little late. I don't know what time I quoted it, so I either listened to it or I read it. Notes? and left a suicide note about how you know wrong he had been and uh but he never actually admitted Yeah. not a single person that gets in it that's not fucked up. It is the worst. it's a devastating it as an art form it's a very rewarding art form when it's done well like a show that's done well

2:33:53 you know, and, you know, I will never tell them again But this is all accidental. saying man i want i'd like to talk to that guy i like to try to get some guests and then then especially comics around talking shit they don't mean what they're saying they're just being silly Fantastic. It took a while for him to relax because he was one way and then we were on camera.

2:37:32 anything you want to talk about it i'm more than willing to talk about it i think any subject can everyone's mind worked like that his brain is just like a tornado of ideas and he's just trying to Yeah. You made it you. Yeah. But we're not in that culture. I'm sure you know people who think that they're That is the most toxic attribute that a person can have

2:41:13 that idea that you haven't gotten the attention you deserve. But you get exactly what you deserve. Some people are very satisfied with their work, even if their work is mediocre. Some people think that their stuff is awesome just Yeah. what if I'd been more ambitious when I was younger? endlessly ambitious. We want to work harder. that you've had? on a subject. And you seem to be, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, you seem to get absorbed in the

2:44:32 And I tend to have these. that were just like I'll never be that yeah And then that subsided into they aren't that either. I don't know about that. Seeing what happens when someone focuses on a thing and hones it down and puts it into a like a presentable I feel like my thoughts are better formed. because you said it so easily, it undermines your argument. Well, it's something I've thought about

2:48:52 a room and there's 15 000 people all waiting to hear you talk it's the strangest thing on earth And the more I think about that, about how to put the bits together and how to make them I feel like when something is done, I look at it a little differently because I think people that are hugely successful are the most true to themselves the Elon Musk is an

2:51:43 of my own way and not thinking about me at all. They want something that feels real. because it's so especially in the broadcast medium it's so rare because there's too many But the problem was that there were a lot of people along there over the years that wanted to do it, again, but I know what you mean. I've pitched things in the past and uh it's it's a the pitching itself is kind of

2:55:32 And it was a lot of fun. So I and a great pal of mine, Marsha Ball, What? And the kind of writing I do is usually very solitary. My creative process is, you know, So I took up piano when I was 38 and a half. deep trough in the culture but you know if you just keep trying to write one book after another Yeah. And too often ignored by nonfiction writers.

3:00:41 that's pretty impressive pretty amazing right there's