Joe Rogan Experience #1614 — Tiller Russell Transcript

Transcript

0:00 the joe rogan experience train by day joe rogan podcast by night all day Then it's flaming. what is his name? It was so interesting when I got there on set with him Yeah. That's my background, right, which is kind of where you dive into the, you know, you do the deep dive on these, you know, crazy crime stories. playing a real guy it's a composite basically what happened is there were a couple of corrupt

3:13 Well, and with something like that, a story like this, there are the people that... I was one of the people that was fully geeked on this story. But I remember thinking like, man, there's a story there. none of the stuff about the corrupt cops had broken. None of that stuff was in the public. And so suddenly, when I had that in my head, I was like, I can make a movie out of that.

5:57 This was like, there was a limited amount of information. okay, I'm going to put my own biography into this. I'm going to put, you know, maybe my We should probably let them know what the story is if they don't know. And I wonder how much of it is accurate because you portrayed him as this sort of really intelligent, idealistic young man who ultimately believed that people should have the freedom to buy, sell, use, choose, whatever they like.

8:49 It's an important worldwide story. And he was in awaiting sentencing, I think, at the time. But then he had left this kind of amazing archive of breadcrumbs in his past. question of how much of this is, you know, journalistically accurate. So every piece of voiceover in the movie that's Did you communicate with him at all? and then when making the movie, because I felt like I needed somebody who knew this guy,

12:47 almost like a three-way relationship where it's like her him and the website Like when you showed the image of that article, I remember going, wow, I remember that article. but I wonder how much longer it would have taken. i'm using bitcoin and nobody knew what the hell Bitcoin was at the time either, right? It's because of this story that we all know of Bitcoin. This is

15:04 So it was reasonably successful before that so it was reasonably successful exactly exactly um the the crazy thing is there were several iterations of Silk Road that happened It's kind of like, I think, And then it reemerged. who completely deny you know his family completely denies the culpability and who knows we'll never And he orders a hit on Did he deny that he called those well and not only not

19:04 What does it look like? It looks like- Is it available online? Can we see it? movie, we have access to the actual faked murder photos. What does it look like? What was his online name? Eastwood put him in Richard Jewell. Working with that guy was so fun, you know? because like, again, we had the, you know, online chatter where it's, you're typing on the computer and then the other person types back,

21:04 Well, I think – okay, so there's a couple of important points. He was offered a deal at a certain point, and he turned it down because – And then all the way through, he was hoping, you know, waiting, the case was working its waiting to see if he would. He's 10 years younger than I am. You tell me and I will be there in person to sit down with you because I do feel like there's some kind of, I don't know, I guess like spiritual contract between me and him. Like when you enter into story like this you're you're in somebody else's

24:17 You know, I've screwed up a million things in my lifetime. And, changed the way the drug game happened and it changed the way the drug war was fought suddenly So what was the motivation for offering him 10 years as a plea? So maybe he thought he'd be able to continue beating the system. was going through the mind of my 26 year old self back then in 2011 so much has

27:10 he actually called for murder. hey, this guy's ripping you off. If it's him, he says yes. murder and he thought it was real then he called for a second murder i mean he's literally calling All of that was deliberately concealed so that they could, you know, hammer him in the prosecution. Yeah, as am I. one of them did one of them would go to jail or two both of them two of them went to jail

30:31 tables were turned i'd want somebody to call my mom too you know imagine jesus christ it's um You know, you did a great job of portraying him as very tortured by his decision, that this is America, right? If you want to pop a pill, snort a line, do whatever, And there's people that don't like the politics, that will argue against that. Hopefully people are arguing about it one way or another.

34:19 sour well and it happens so quickly you know one of the things that's crazy about that that story Federal government seizes it and confiscates it. Although there was just, I read in the news, in the pandemic too yeah but that particularly strange, that they have that little thing to let you know this is not new. United States versus approximately 69,370 Bitcoin.

36:53 that money go well i mean i think some of them it goes into like reinvestigations and the way in the You know, when I'm making The Night Stalker for Netflix, the question is like, okay, you got all these like brutal crime scene photos of people that are just, you know, essentially gutted and just the most horrible stuff ever. would assume, okay, you're the guy that's got the keys to the kingdom. You're broadcasting

39:32 if you portrayed the DEA agent creating a false account or hacking into his account in some way, But at the same time, you can't prove it. his laptop did they get um a log from the laptop that showed that those that type that type like So eventually the feds get access to the server farm in Iceland, Oh, no. coming out of his mouth yeah and then that's him that's that's that's one of the real dea guys

42:44 Wow. Well, that's the thing with those undercover guys, right? Where's that guy now? In the Bering Sea doing what turned out to be deadliest catch once upon a time, right? man, I'm having nightmares that I'm going to, like, shit right and so i reach down and i pick up the camera and i start shooting and i'm feeling like but like and then that's the moment that ends up you know being like okay now we got a tv show

45:12 of Richard Ramirez and the Night Stalker it's mostly women isn't it anecdotally that's what everybody groupies and fans and they're sending him and I had gotten access to all of the like naked pictures To get all these propositions from women. Yeah, very strange super strange they're willing to kill and that this is like something that existed thousands and thousands of years ago in our dna this desire to be close to killers because you were more likely to survive

48:51 actually, even though it doesn't seem like that, dramatically decreased. whatever you know we are all in some way complicit in that well there's the lure fuck someone and you actually saw it it'd be like this movie's a piece of shit right this is terrible And so I think there was an interview with David Cronenberg or something. They're like, what is it with, like, sex and violence in the movies, like it's one of the most cinematic things there is. And so I think there was an interview with David Cronenberg or something.

51:05 an action movie but you know it's not really the people having sex like one of the reasons why we Even though it's a wild, crazy movie with Kubrick, like the t's can be sexier than the actual sex or like jaws the shark it's like you think in the trending away from you know the murder rate of you know 50 50 it's like it's our way of vicariously Right. And why are we upset at some things that people like and not upset about

54:48 fantasy it's fiction you know and that's always been the argument for gangster rap it's always you know, it's a cornerstone of the country Well, and he has the argument with his girlfriend in the movie where she's like, dude, you're selling crack on the site. an amphetamine he's like the the idea we put these things in our mind like these are horrific

57:32 street drug and one's the like wall street drug exactly and he said but the the effect And then it's like, and then they're like, maybe give me some edibles. it's just it's bad it's a bad setup and they get pushed into this box because this is what their That's what I do. He's still out there. But in his mind mind that's the And they used to say, you know, what kind of piece are you carrying?

1:00:54 online now and like knowing how to work informants or rouse somebody it's like that shit's irrelevant You know? but it's uh it's a moment i won't forget i don't i remember the god i believe i And suddenly the monster has him by the throat at the end of it lost my kid, I wouldn't be sitting here being like, hey, double life sentence plus 40 is too I don't have the answer.

1:04:10 You sold them a razor blade so you could shave your face. the guy that wants to buy it. Inner voyage. You know what I mean? How many people were using Silk Road at the time? otherwise beneficial But to me, it's, okay, this is how we explore these stories, by telling them retelling them talking about them and witch doctor from brazil coming to meet him on the campaign trail because he was hooked on this.

1:07:45 Right. And, you know, yeah, the wife and the daughter that needed money for the school and everything There was another site that he kind of kicked into it. Did they really think that? and i and i think that he did go into it with and he did make a mark for better or worse well Yeah. Yeah, he probably would. Still in hiding. Serpico Serpico and he's like yeah this is Serpico I just wanted to say which that movie showed

1:11:59 And so eventually he goes to respond to a call sounded exactly like pacino in the movie you know it's really interesting what was the effects of Severed an auditory nerve, leaving him deaf in one year. He looks like Pacino, right? I'd love to go back. Fired back. Dude, you should do it. i'd love to tell my version of this and that didn't go into it in what way like more details i guess

1:14:32 It would be fast. you know the city as it once was you know that's true yeah now that would be the place to do it at And you just get completely glued to it You have to smush everything in I want to go to the theater when you get into, You know, something to do. love watching television but i would never go back to like a game show again well let's say never

1:17:17 kind of people or there's no rules you know and initially if you looked at it on paper would have three different lives to live simultaneously i I could fill them up easy. like free form and it's rambling. It's wherever it, it, whatever, wherever you want to follow it, that's where it Silk Road or making a doc, at the end of the day, like, people are fascinating. And if you will sit down and sort of pay attention to them and ask them, hey, man, what makes you tick? Why did you

1:20:03 Just full scale. And as soon as I saw that clip, I was like, dude, who is this guy? I'll meet you for a beer or lunch or whatever. Try as I might. And Dowd is like, yeah, this is Michael Dowd. So I jump on a plane, fly out there, and I go out and get on the L.A. and he's just this like full tilt like maniac right out of a scorsese movie and he's like all right so what's the plan what do you want

1:23:36 And as they're getting hauled away, they're like, so who's going to play me in the movie? Oh my God. Yeah, he's a character. you find his instagram yeah it's private though so oh is it really that's interesting he must The funny thing is we're sort of doing this So, at the time, some narc I know calls me and is like, He's got a BlackBerry in this Panamanian prison.

1:26:20 He's like, hello, this is Tarzan. So I fly to Panama, and I've got like 10 grand, just under 10 grand, because if it's 10 grand, like stone fortress cut out cut you know carved out of the jungle and i roll up on this place to the other side of the lower yard there's gonna be a big steel door and you push it open and tarzan's going to be on the other side shut the fuck up and i'm

1:28:17 And it's inmate rule at night. So this guy opens the gate and pulls it open. He's like, welcome to panama i Stupidly. But you have money on you. I'm getting anxiety. thread count sheets and go to sleep for the night. And he won't tell me. And I'm like, bro, can you get a million bucks in a week? So I fly to Moscow with the crew and show up and he starts telling the story so what the

1:31:51 That's the Cuban narco. He goes into the bathroom in the thing, changes the name to Joe Rogan, his passport, make sure that I'm ahead of you when I walk out so that I enter the country. going to talk to you so i'm sitting there in moscow and i get a text on whatsapp and it says I'm going to Africa. Oh, wearing Armani suits and stuff, but these are not like business travelers.

1:34:18 place you saw the dot. So I walked downstairs and I go out, up rolls Porsche Cayenne. Here's this international fugitive. of your face because it's like these guys it's not like Google it's like okay And inside is a MiG fighter jet with $20 million in cash in the cockpit. they eventually his lawyers to say, Okay, we need to get him Yeah. So suddenly everything that once upon a time was owned by the state, like if you're the general and you like work at the airfield or at the place where the tanks are and suddenly there is no government, like you own those tanks.

1:37:38 And so eventually the like drug lords come to them and they're like, choppers are great, Only like two of them are like really trying to get the submarine done. And they they go and they shot and there's pictures of them in the documentary like you'll That's him in his Miami days, rocking the glasses and whatever. like you're dropping dude so this is this this is one of the so that was there more than one

1:39:21 You can't sell a submarine like NATO is's gonna blow it up the second it you know Why does he want, but why would he want to tell you about all this? Right. know what i mean like they sort of are like me anyway you get like normal you know fascinating you know whatever but i end up kind of talking my way into a job at a newspaper. interview with him to do the, you know, to do a profile of him in the newspaper.

1:42:51 or you're going to go try your hand at this. i i spent many years knocking around you know doing you know i go on the deadliest catch thing is The Last Narc, is Night Stalker. Yeah. I would imagine that it's deeply disturbing the more you dig into a story like the Richard Ramirez story. Wait, You know, Yeah, yeah, very vividly. It was men. you're asleep at your most vulnerable and so that's what made it so challenging for those

1:47:31 that i think that they did um they did a feature film of it i'm so curious um and i never saw it doing it you know traveling around dc anyway doing it it was just a weird crazy story yeah it was But from the cop's perspective, it's like, hey, if you're broadcasting key pieces of information, and in the case of the Night Stalker, the Night Stalker was clocking everything that showed up in the media and was changing his patterns based on that.

1:49:38 right? Really weird one. And I love that movie because with with that movie they didn't make it easy and tidy you know 60s and 70s, it says. I think it would be much harder now. and paraded in front of the cameras, he becomes like the Jim Morrison of serial killers. know some people criticize it some people don't because it's like okay tell me more about richard

1:52:26 I didn't want to glorify him because it's like it's that celebritization culture where suddenly like if you're famous, you're famous and you've got like fans and groupies. and this stuff is not in you know obviously not in the netflix series some of it we're doing a of this becomes this crazy cocktail he's a thief they call him him Five Finger Richie. And then eventually he washes up in LA and he's shooting dope and he's out of his mind and begins to get a taste for it.

1:55:21 And that's why I was, I guess I was trying to articulate before, which is all these things have these major moral questions where it's like, okay, if I'm making a series that's about Richard Ramirez and suddenly this guy's face is on a poster, even if I don't put him in the show until episode four or whatever, am I contributing to that mythos and that celebritization of this guy? And so constantly you're asking yourself, like,

1:56:28 really hard to look at. You don't wipe that stuff out of your consciousness once you see it. How do you... And I don't know where the story is going to go, but I know something in me wants to dig in deeper. everybody go away again. And like, let me think like, okay, what was that little spark that And so there's that layer of dispute because it never lines up.

2:00:05 it's exactly sticking people's nose in the horror of it that show you um that make it repugnant so But basically what Busey said to me is he said, here's the deal, man. It's be the quiet center of the wheel. But at the end of the day, there's always a point where you have to just be quiet, There really is. And those stories now increasingly find me.

2:02:52 he's like yo man i seen that nice dog and it scared the motherfucking shit out of me and i We'll see where it goes. everything death row records everything it's an it's an incredible it's an incredible story which Awesome. And I think the title of his stream was something like, And everything went fucking bad He's a national treasure he's a national treasure

2:06:01 and then he gets a phone call from Snoop so i'm just like i'm so curious to Yeah, they're on the show. Yeah, he's a national treasure. He's like, man, I robbed 60 banks, 15 of them while I was in prison. he and his crew start this like three year long con to be on good behavior so that they can get work release. house. We get girlfriends. We get jewelry. We get whatever. We're back by five o'clock and pick up.

2:09:28 when they got released, they'd take all the money from the bank robberies and open their nightclub. to ask you questions. I'm curious, like, what's it like to be like black in America? What's it like that moment i decide i'm gonna become a bank robber and get my piece of the american dream Amazing guy. memos so it's like maybe it's maybe we do a podcast or maybe we do i don't know it's but

2:12:53 curious to meet people. So you sit down with, okay, who do I want to know? And like what makes drop out that's the one on uh the lady elizabeth holmes from theranos that's a fascinating one who's some, you know, black turtleneck dresses like steve jobs the genius of the hustle god damn people are weird I think there's something about that. responsible for a lot of his behavior and also abuse and also you know a lot of other shit that

2:15:54 He was like this guy who was a railroad worker and was this very kind of responsible, squared-away guy brain trauma and what the impacts to different parts of the brain were it's a crazy story of parts of the brain controlling different things look how big that thing is that went through his yeah completely oh look at the picture of him before and after jamie right there

2:18:43 Well, he's been clinically dead. he's pronounced clinically dead several times over the course of his life and it changes who teeth fixed. And she calls me. She's like, all right, Busey's here. So I come running out and So I knock on the door and nothing. locks eyes with him and i'm like dude this is like this is it this is how you die like gary bucey

2:21:42 here we run out and he jumps into the his car or something together and um and then eventually One was, like, I forget. The problem is after the motorcycle accident, And he puts Gary Busey on. And I didn, Joe, Gary Busey wants to talk to you. I go, what? And he puts Gary Busey on. And at the end of it, I i went all right and he goes well Oh he was in his second season of Celebrity Rehab

2:24:34 Pretend you're just helping them. i to this day i quoted and it's like man it's like i heard him well the dude has been in some and i want to say that's like 89 or 90 87 wow that Wow! That's crazy. So Scissor sweeps him to the ground. And they're letting him duke it out. They had sticks and coup batons, The first time you'd ever seen this in a film.

2:27:03 That's pretty good. he's a tremendous actor and there's something about someone who's stared at death and also just sam when he was young he was like a normal kid and then he gets hit by a car he becomes a fucking maniac like bad head injury and just completely impulsive wild Can't count anymore. 100%. brash and I don't give a fuck man if you ever get a chance to see her live did comedy. And she was a straight up killer, man.

2:30:18 Firefighters are braver. That's something coming out of somebody to be able to do that. Like, he didn't think twice about what he was going to say. I don't even understand that, Rehearsed prior to coming in or just roughed out? completely on stage they just have ideas and some guys that just write completely on stage. He makes them up, memorizes them,

2:32:59 You know, everybody has a different way of doing it. So you do this, bang, bang, bang. work right out of the gate and then there's other ones where you're like god i should abandon this That tightrope. daughters and if i ever found out that some fucking guy offered my daughter's sex some it thinking about it it's so ballsy though man to, it's just like you're walking a tightrope in front of like a room full of people with a notion and a hunch.

2:36:02 I walked on stage. We were doing a Stubbs Barbecue as an amphitheater and we were doing these uh we were doing a stubs uh stubs barbecue as an amphitheater and as you're listening to it being So there's a whole series of things that I do, Like you don't ever want to be thinking Yeah. that moment but the writing process on a computer is very different that's just

2:39:17 It just sort of flows, and it lets me get into a mind state better. Yeah, it's close. Everybody does it different. Because you fucked off at work or you fucked off at school. you're impulsive and kind of wild and crazy make people laugh yeah that way it's just you're never out of shape it's always burned into your mind but i come from this school of thoughts of like with martial arts martial arts

2:41:44 And then I'd do it to you. And it's over and over again and then I do it to you oh it's fucking boring but it makes it And so you're saying the application of that to comedy then- and i would slap hands and then we would just practice on each other it's fun it's fun to do You can improvise it Like, I do a lot of them. You drop four a week. Somewhere somebody had told me that you, or maybe it was on one of your shows, that you've

2:44:41 some endurance based thing i just do it this that's mode well podcast my phone goes on silent i push to if i'm doing a podcast my phone drops away man yeah when i'm sitting there like writing a screenplay or when i'm making a They're listening to the boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. And you don't always achieve that dance with everybody. Yeah, the person's not there.

2:47:29 It's easy to do. conversationalist it's not just me asking a question, you answering it. Like I don't really interview people. I mean, while you're doing of whether or not this is interesting or whether or not you're overbearing Just like listening to a set and you don't like certain aspects of it. It's the pace. When someone sings, right, long before you ever end up with a camera,

2:51:08 bit of vodka. You know, I'm maybe needing blowjob right now, you know what I mean? Or whatever. five or doing something like silk road where it's a fiction i always want to i always want to do you know, and then so that when I, by the time I sit down to write Silk Road and I know, okay, whatever you can gain. And with smart actors, you put them in that position and they'll steal the

2:54:10 narc, door kicker, gunfighter dude who was down there in Mexico working the Camarena murder for and it's Hector's belt buckle. What you're talking about, about the way you do things, the podcast, the early days of the podcast. You can't look at porn. You can't look at what's the new cool car that's out. And he also has a name for the muse. Like, I don't think there's really like a ghost out there that's bringing you these ideas.

2:57:36 by showing up and doing the work. is he was kind of a failure for a lot of his life and then around 40 figured it out got his shit But most of the people that are getting to work are the people that like just keep showing comedy have you Like, how do you do it right? well you lose vitality and you lose your ability to be enthusiastic about things. because their body's more resilient

3:01:49 He's amazing. But then you got guys like Bukowski. and just going back and writing about it. Yeah. And then there's guys like that, too, that they let you know, like, hey, there's no real roadmap. But you do learn something by how people got to where they got. sometimes not educational at all sometimes just fun and a lot of them have been just fun but a

3:04:44 This is what I know. What do we all want? who you're having friendships with, what are you doing for a living. of things but you gotta pick one of those and whatever whatever that thing is you gotta pour me it's it's almost like the ultimate parenting advice right it's like sort of what you're telling Like, I want you to be, like, with somebody you love and who loves you.

3:07:37 A lot of people whose parents just were excuse makers and always negative, they don't tolerate that shit at all. want to do. and you're hitting off the tee when you're a major leaguer. You've got to force yourself into into action and one of the best ways and improvised it for like the long time and then at a certain point it was like man this stuff is

3:09:54 why don't I just do that all the time for things? You know, like there is work is a force that gives us meaning. My wife has taught me how to go on vacations. work it's what you were talking about with improvising when the stand-up comics come in that my friend Ari has on his laptop. Just to understand that the first draft is shit. we're three hours in i got a lot of shit to do yeah i'm thinking about it right now you know

3:13:15 to do. But we were locked in Like when you look at a project, do you think of your past work and think that it has to measure up to that? calls and it's like hey i want to like i want to i want to i want to do the best work of my life And God bless them because this is what I have to give. Thank you very much