Joe Rogan Experience #1615 — Hamilton Morris Transcript

Transcript

0:00 the Joe Rogan experience First it was your home, then the LA location, and now this new intermediate red tube. I think it's number five. It might be number six. from texas it looks good it's not bad it's okay it's odd what is the optimal arrangement going to Yeah. I love New York City, and this is by far the grimmest I have ever seen it. but everything,

3:00 It's a dark time. And then here we are in April, all the way through April, When I tell people about it and then they go there, they're like, I thought you were exaggerating. What are people going to do? than be under your thumb. Yeah. you know been on an airplane since the beginning of the pandemic you're the first person i've The dog shit thing is like, so people just don't clean up anymore?

6:34 Things don't bounce back on their own, right? are gone. Oh, yeah. I'm so worried about the restaurants in New York. Yeah, it's terrible. well personal choices are not immoral right so if the people decide that they're willing to work because it has run out for a lot of people there is no more unemployment for a lot of folks even considered this like what what is done with snacks what are the snack provisions are there no

9:38 Yeah, it's nonsense. But it's not. I think that's pretty well established. It's crazy. So I was just sort of seduced by the momentum of production and didn't want it to end. you've got to do something to make sure that your immune system is strong like here are the steps have sufficient levels of vitamin D. some kind of therapeutic benefit, it doesn't seemingly prevent coronavirus infection. And I

13:33 to boost your immune system. it is, we're looking for some sort of a medicine. But there's a lot of things that you can do to strengthen your immune system with nutrients and with exercise and with healthy diet. developed immediately, that it would take a year, which it did. And so the only hope at that time Anything attached to Trump becomes poison.

15:39 And ivermectin. justification. But I also just thought it would be cool to get all these things. And there were a small number of studies that had been published that provided a little bit of support for it potentially being useful. bring that up some people are so anti-trump that they didn't don't even want to hear it oh yeah and Yes. But there was a lot published.

18:39 Have you considered moving somewhere other than Brooklyn? Yeah, I think that's it. It's more dystopian. A lab that I work at is in Philadelphia, I like difficult things, but it's not just difficult for me. It's a very good show. these productions are so compartmentalized or do you think that you're going to abandon media? and gave me a few thousand dollars

22:23 And what if you go to Oregon? yeah John Hopkins is doing studies with former fighters and current fighters on But, you know, lion's mane is good for, for, for the brain and there's several other different mushrooms, but psychedelics in general, particularly psilocybin. What do you know about There needs to be something else, it seems. wasn't the whole picture. And what was, you know, there was a group in Maryland, called the Maryland

25:47 any of it. They weren't seeing clients and making money off of it. And the university and the funding bodies weren't all that interested in it. And it just kind of died a sad, slow death of that there was so much interest is because these were being paid for by pharmaceutical companies, that's gonna really sort of motivate the public to be more enthusiastic about it

27:55 Yeah. if I remember correctly. But again, we're talking about microdosing LSD, if I remember correctly. They, what, when they compared the results of the placebo and the results of the microdose, Are you breaking up with your girlfriend? placebo, some that contain a microdose. you a nice feeling, and I think it's real. I think if you feel nice and you feel happy,

31:03 He was bummed out about all sorts of things in his life, getting a divorce. All sorts of shit was going this changed my life he's like he was depressed he was you know bummed out about all Right. that just are less psychedelic in general that have a little bit of that sort of effect that people are looking for pharmaceutical Ibogaine microdosing. No, no, you can find find there's like french adventure novels

33:17 and maybe almost like a mild antidepressant. monase and it was a basically like a microdose of mdma this was done pharmaceutically in our but it had nothing to do with the fact that it exerted an MDMA-like effect. Do you know what I'm talking about? I do know what you're talking about. in an unregulated market. And it's not people's drug use exactly

35:50 that don't involve hacking down the forest. Black pepper? way to do it i mean it covered it up neil young had something recently about black pepper i had The pepper, I guess. Medical extract, basically terpene. I didn't know that it's in black pepper seeds, but it's in cannabis. something i should try to take that would help that uh do you know of maybe a period of abstinence

38:38 He gets high off smoking it. things about your own chemical like your your chemistry that would stop thc edibles or marijuana you know we don't really know there's like so much we don't know yeah i mean it might be some Some people, particularly alcohol, I'm a quick sober quick sober upper when it comes to alcohol for kind of interesting that you don't drink yeah i mean i'll drink in the way of your acid no i mean i'll drink you know every now

41:35 which is, I think, vastly superior. really interesting for the guy to be You know, and he uses pure heroin. He likes to sniff it. Drug use of the sort that he describes is extremely common. anything a medical problem or a social problem not something that you need to be hated for right button to give you a morphine drip I had knee surgery and I was in the hospital

44:31 And anytime you want, just press that button and you get a little drip of morphine. it he's a chemist and i mean he he really gets it no he, he's a research scientist. You understand? You know, of my religion. I'm using psychedelics for this reason or that reason. It's very rare that people Like whiskey. And we don't care. Prohibition as well. Yeah. So

46:54 made whiskey for medicinal purposes during Prohibition, which is kind of hilarious. continue listening to music and playing music, and they create their own biases where they say, And that would be great. neurodegenerative diseases or music treats depression. I guarantee it. And you could get So, I mean, you could use that for anything, right? Yeah.

50:19 And whether they're drugs or whether they're physical activity or whether they're... If you show that people, if they jog a little bit every day, it actually turns out to be we're going to see more of this nanny state nonsense that we've been dealing with since And I think that the one thing that people have to be very careful about and remember They're the bad ones.

52:40 Those are the bad drugs. Like, it doesn't—it takes a while to acknowledge that you make these mistakes. and then we realized that we'd actually made a mistake, that maybe the science was flawed, I mean, we're freaking out about heart attacks and strokes, and rightly so. thing he goes there get a nice rush before i go give me one of those fucking things he's like no

55:39 Those are fine for you. I haven't smoked one since. Is that a pack of cigarettes? Yeah. Was it dip yeah No, no, no. We can do what we want. There's a cigar. And here's a torch. Hit that bad boy. You know how to use that? There we go. Here's a torch. There's a cigar. It's a big part of the ceremony for some reason that the shaman dances around you and blows tobacco on you.

58:24 to sort of focus the trajectory of your thoughts. Isn't it? You know what I'm saying? This is the one thing that worries me about the move to Spotify is on YouTube, comes to like video playback and stuff but yeah this was a boring section section of the podcast feels good, right? No, I don't. so it is our responsibility to protect ourselves as much as possible, because we'll never truly be

1:02:40 You know, like when you go to vape stores, like you're just getting some vape shit. or I had to go get some for you? I was sucking on a robot dick. some unregulated bullshit. but the other thing and this is something that carl hart doesn't talk about very much and he Yeah, that's a good call. most likely to disagree with somebody on and you must be american so that that gives me pause i

1:06:17 for three weeks, three months, three years, depends on the dose, depends on the support network, depends on pre-existing said, and I got into because the brand name for oxycodone at that time was eucalypt. And this was something that has been And then somehow these people that studied medicine were so unaware. that you had to deal with us in the future, because there will always be somebody trying to sell us something that's bad for our

1:09:54 You have morphine, you have heroin, you have oxycodone, hydrocodone, hydromorphone, oxymorphone, and so on. predicted this is something that I find a little bit hard to stomach. And I think that it's a People have known cigarettes are bad for you for a long time. this uh show the other day one thing that does disturb me is uh commercials that cigar might

1:12:59 it's the weirdest thing that they sort of kind of like gloss oh and then say it while the cheery that allow you to advertise pharmaceutical drugs on television. Human beings are very malleable you know we're well although that's totally critical for me to say that because i at the therapeutic dose what's the mechanism what is it i believe it's a low potency dopamine

1:15:22 So they're damaging their liver and it produces this monstrous dermatological toxicity where people have these kind of grotesque It has the opposite mechanism of Prozac like heroin to me and uh and people on you know different forums would say like oh sure sure sure antagonist curious very strange then an acquaintance at columbia started actually entirely different.

1:18:45 There's also a nasal spray formulation as well. than heroin does and then there's actually a problem that's not talked about very much. Is there anything that mitigates withdrawal effects? at Janssen Pharmaceuticals And it's an opioid unless you take extraordinarily high doses, its main effect is on intestinal motility. And so it causes the constipation of an opioid without any of the psychological euphoria-inducing effects.

1:21:18 You're not hopeless if you find yourself in the midst of this. it did exert an antidepressant effect. that the opiophobia has become so great in our culture that people were not interested in it, function. You can't cut us off from opioids just because of this epidemic of people that were Because you're being very objective about these things, That's nice of you to say.

1:24:26 that the number of people that have been imprisoned Oh, here's a good story. Thompson wrote about Charles Innes in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, talking, and it's kind of And I think, there's no way. he was a Johns Hopkins University student. Oh, when he in the 1970s 1970s, when he's emailing you. Oh, now he's, I think probably in his 70s or 80s.

1:27:06 So they said, listen, we've got this amazing hash and we want to sell it to you. I don't want this stuff. It's this this drug. contents of it, knowing that they're going to arrest him for it. And PCP is a powerful dissociative amazing scapegoat they're so good as tools to diminish people to show that they're weak that so forth down the line but it's also it goes on with cops using them to arrest people and you

1:31:22 There's no way it couldn't. And there's only two people, two types of people opportunities. He has no role models in his life. He has nothing to look forward to. He maybe need that that's a slippery slope, because if you go down for things that they've done and that, know the concept of determinism like that you really We have to do something about it.

1:35:04 particularly if like you're talking about someone who grew up in a poor poor uh environment crime-ridden Well, in some ways he's right. what we did and this is one of the things that kind of drove me crazy in the beginning of the chance of ever overcoming all the influences of your environment and the people around you This is the argument that I always had

1:38:11 You've got to put massive resources and emphasis into figuring out how you fix these crime-ridden, they said, like, new evidence suggests that, like, one of the early arrests of George Floyd He was getting crazy. Yeah. instead of 100 to 1. You're getting too high. We caught your son with a bong. But how, how is that going to happen? It's like saying end badness and meanness. I'm in favor of

1:41:27 Because I think there's many people that really, truly do not understand the difference between that that is almost more than anything emblematic of a much larger issue, Yeah. You snort it? You know, it's working. You can't be snorting drugs. He's like, that's the initial effects of it. He said, but then it gets into over the last six or seven years or so

1:44:57 And he said, you know, I go to the doctor and, you know, I'm like, But the fact that you can go to a doctor and have a full-blown effects that, you know, maybe make you a little bit high have I've had friends that take it for depression, not Prozac, but other SSRIs, and have had positive effects. And depression is not one disorder. order and we're going to increasingly in the future appreciate that many of these things that we use with one term are probably many very ultimately dissimilar clinical entities so if you look at depression you wonder well wait a second why does this work for some people and not

1:47:54 and then on the aromatic ring ketamine has a chlorine atom and then on the cyclohexane ring I find it to be a profoundly antisocial drug. sort of, like there are many archetypal classical psychedelic experiences, like you've described Yeah. that have ever taken these psychedelics somehow or another. That was his thing, apparently. That is something that is generated in your brain by your consciousness.

1:51:57 It's a huge part of it. Oh, definitely not. but it's a minuscule amount of a less potent molecule. But if a celebrity says they like something, that can have a tangible effect on the environment. to create a private toad sanctuary. It's so terrifying. I was gone. he's like so much of the way I would communicate was not just me trying to get Terrifying.

1:56:30 Maybe this is what they talk about when they talk about going to the light when you die. With something like DMT, it's difficult to describe I have found it terrifying, yes. like sort of i talked about the sort of COVID denial that This is actually one of the worst things that has happened in my lifetime, and I just have there's a phosphate ester that's metabolically cleaved, and that produces psilocin. Psilocin

2:00:17 yeah why because in smoking it you wouldn't cleave the hydroxy group that confers this resistance to MAO. What did you think about that? someone who is hated by countless people, became very fashionable to treat him as if he was about it a couple of times, you know, I can totally understand why you would start using They still exist. I'm not saying that we need to ban them or that no one should ever use them or that they don't have medical value,

2:04:10 they say, and they say, you know, oh, you've got anxiety here, take this, and you take it. And then longer period of time it's more difficult to get off of it? And if you magnify that over months or years, those are months or years where you haven't figured out how to relax before bed, how to unwind, right? discipline. So long term, you also have, like I said, you have psychological changes in your

2:06:37 Now, when he tried to get off these benzodiazepine, Yeah. could I pee? We're going to talk about xenon gas That sounds like some shit This is all popping right off the top of his head. and he's so good at expressing it. It says it's by Ken Nelson, mike tyson is affecting ecology with his toad use we're just singing your praises sir welcome back Okay.

2:09:33 most part, drugs are compounds that are made from different elements joined together. There are very Yeah, very weird stuff. And it has you pour it into a terrarium. But it's also a drug. like oxygen deprivation tents, Xenon is one of the shyest members of the periodic table of the elements. Erythropoietin, also known as EPO, a hormone that encourages the formation of red blood cells.

2:12:39 that i know that he tried a number of different things i don't want to like go into his medical especially if you... That's why when people make statements like heroin withdrawal is really really bad or heroin withdrawal is just like the flu it's like well they're both true for different people probably it just depends okay that makes sense that makes sense but colonopin particularly difficult to get off

2:14:34 xanax and it's not about so xanax is a benzodiazepine as well yes it is yeah okay i know Like, it's very important to physicians These were all barbiturate associated deaths. Yeah, so they're positive allosteric modulators of something called the GABA-A receptor. charge, the more likely it is to fire. It will have an excitatory effect. So when a benzodiazepine

2:17:47 it actually increases the amount of anxiety common. That does happen. That does happen, but that's not reflective of the normal. That's, you depends. So and I don't want to, you know, make any claims that there's a magic bullet that will will, I think, do a lot more long-term That's the problem, right? oh, yeah, when I was in my 20s, I loved cannabis. But the day I turned 30, I started getting panic attacks every single time I smoked it.

2:21:31 even if you enjoy it it's good to experimentally deprive yourself of things that are good and that as much as they possibly can, Yeah, it's far too prevalent that this is the only way that people communicate. It's just I don't think it's healthy. you're too aware that you're being rude. And you don't hear anything from the outside world. And it's the best way to sort things out and to figure out how a person really,

2:24:48 Like some of the most interesting stories I've ever told, It's not good. Alan Levinowitz calls it processed and you could hold yourself to a different standard. You know who Aaron Schwartz was? Yes. so you know that when aaron schwartz died what happened he was trying to collect all This has been around for years. But what science really is is a series of thousands and thousands and thousands of short papers.

2:29:07 then people are just like spending their entire life insulting trump on twitter or whatever like Yeah. Has there been an argument? as a result of that because yeah um i'm sure they would throw the book at her if they could I think that he was in a somewhat, you know, I think he was, you know, really, really seriously eventually it will actually kill you.

2:32:23 Oh, yeah. Valproic acid-induced model of autism in rats. related to its generalized action and deserves further investigation. what we do. We can arrest everyone associated with Purdue. and you just think, all right, Why nitrous oxide? a drug that might be some recapitulation of an ancient interaction that evolved in bacteria whoa yeah whoa yeah now why did to go back to jordan peterson and his withdrawal

2:35:51 are that are like oh you're jordan peterson you're that all right uh men's activist guy how dare you but cannabis isn't the same now um ibogaine has some sort of a corrective effect on addiction, right? in December of 2019, and it was incredible. It was one of the most amazing experiences of my entire life and I felt like I fully not fully not even close to

2:38:37 character, where the people who are struggling with addiction all lay side by side. And there's, you into this state you don't eat any food. Babies are doing it. functional and happy to be there and what i learned about iboga i think a big part of it to a period days of fasting and this delusional idea that they don't need food people have died And in the aboga ceremony,

2:41:58 this cultural context that you have everything that you need within yourself. Wow. So during I've never really fasted. I can't do this. utterly extraordinary. What did you get out of it? I would say, and it's pharmacologically and Why does it help people with addictions? anti-addictive medications like Welbutrin. So there's an idea that simply by binding to that receptor,

2:44:49 It has a very complicated pharmacology and binds to a wide variety of different receptors, like when people talk about drugs as if drugs are just one thing. It's like we create these artificial boundaries where I mean, I think that's even, there's a lot of Christian iconography in these ceremonies, and that you can see that image and find strength in your own suffering.

2:46:56 You're so good at explaining these things, Yeah. It's mostly chemistry oriented, Let's do it more often then. Okay. Thank you very much. I really love to come back. I love talking to you, too. Let's do it more often, then. Goodbye.