Joe Rogan Experience #1643 — Jonathan Zimmerman Transcript

Transcript

0:00 Free speech and why you should give a damn, Jonathan Zimmerman. All right? There's a lot of very intelligent people that disagree with you in this current political climate, unfortunately. Correct. And also one of the things that people that study communications have taught us is that when we have exchanges online, they tend to be more uncivil. Like what is happening?

3:20 When I meet them, they're friendly. They hug me and then I see them online. I'm like, Like, no, because I don't want to be uncomfortable, but I want to express myself. So this is the other perspective, like in favor of talking shit. You know, how can we put it to positive All right. And often it comes down to Jack Dorsey. I really do. you only have a few months when elections rolling around and there's this person who is like getting

7:54 is why. But you only have three months. Correct. And there's a natural time that these things take We don't kind of the womb doing that, right? It's not really highlighted in school, especially in high school. It's not something that you certain social clout to those subjects. Definitely. Look, the hardest thing to do You know? And also, I mean, you know, remember if you're in high school, you're an adolescent.

10:48 And who isn't right and you're trying to get on the right side and as you were saying to mouth the right things and then when I was 13, we moved to Boston. And so as an elementary schooler, I lived in India and Iran. you know, to be, you know, like one of a couple boys in a whole It's just like when you're young, you just do what's there. Right. Yeah. And, you know, I lived in Iran in the late 60s when, you know, Tehran was this

13:30 Except for Israel, the Iranians like us more than any country in the Middle East. Obviously, most of those people have been exiled, right? That's got to be so strange to have grown up there and see this gigantic shift and have these memories of what it was like previously. I think my concerns about free speech For different reasons, right? they published that story about the NSA's, all the, you know, the shit that he leaked where there was this widespread surveillance on the American public.

16:09 the NSA. Yeah. We can critique it, but it still exists. Yes, it does. It's very strange. It's Well, I forget which comedian made a joke out of this. But that is, in a sense, it's encouraging self-censorship. Of course. get specific about saying what they really mean or think? Like, what is it? What are the key Nevertheless, I was upset by the 40% figure.

19:23 afraid to do so publicly because they don't want to incur the social costs. You oppose affirmative action. Ergo, you're David Duke. And of course, there is no ergo, really good arguments to the contrary. Right. And, you know, I think at the end of the day, You never know, man. that are open-minded, that oppose each other, What is it about this that makes you upset?

22:32 agree with it. Try to just find where they're connecting the dots. Like, how are you doing this? That's what it is. I don't care um when I don't want to just pick up like, Jesus, what is he doing now? what we have an educated people to do. And that's what our broader media environment discourages. between Fox and MSNBC because I know that if I were to watch-

25:46 I haven't read it yet. It's fucking great. He made that same point in, what's it called? Hate Speech? He's not a finance guy. I think it's great that Substack exists and it's great that a fellow like that is on it. But the fact that he's on it It's the game. In fact, The Onion ran a great headline a couple of years ago that said, That's what I did.

28:27 You know, my friends worked at, you know, sporting goods stores and grocery stores. a paper out. open that sucker and you're supposed to take one paper. But see, there are other virtues of it, But then the next one, as in an F, it's a little shorter. I don't know. Oh, I read about it. Do you know anything about it? But you didn't have it set up. Yeah, I just pulled it out.

31:26 that's not that important. Like delete. Get it out of there. no other apps. It does connect to the internet And Clifford Nass was the guru of multitasking. And what he demonstrated is that multitasking is And this is another message I'm constantly giving to my students. Like, don't believe the Yeah, I think there's some real truth to that because I think most people that I know that multitask, they do several things, but I don't think they do them quite as good as if they were only doing that one thing. Correct. Correct. The interesting thing is they actually believe that they do. And I think that was NASA's point. I mean, that's why it keeps going,

34:12 you want to be the winner, right? You want to be the person who, you know, beats the team at the that. Yeah. Yeah. That's very unfortunate. And there's probably some exercises to make you they don't care like either make the ball or you do not make the ball like all yeah if you know the three of us were all black belts and we were uh training together

36:39 Because he never learned how to lose. Because the other thing I think that psychology has taught us is that actually that's a very bad way to think of yourself. it thinks of those in rather static terms. Exactly. Just do it. Just do it. Yeah. But also recognize what parts of whatever you're doing that maybe you need to improve upon. discipline. Without a doubt, without a doubt. And we've all experienced that, right? But I think

40:00 Exactly, which is not useful. There's some, I believe that's in Zen of the Art of Archery, Concentrate on the process. Yeah. Yeah the process. Concentrate on the process. Exactly. everyone as grown up babies. I used to think of people as being in a static state. Like if I met Yes. And they would say, like, Dad, when you meet somebody, why do you always say, where are you from?

42:27 It's a lot. And the fact that you made all those moves and what that involved were different sets of people in different environments. It was just a different way to live. and his dad was upset that gay people were getting the right to get married. What a weird thing to be upset by. Yes. That you wouldn't have learned if you would have stayed on Lombard Street.

44:26 yeah it's like i i remember i was 11 also i went to school and then i came home and i asked my mom She's like, you mom how babies were made. A man puts his penis in a woman's vagina. I didn't know. I guess in San Francisco I hadn't heard it. hung out together. It was normal. Right. It was, uh, it was a really open-minded place man in the 1970s san francisco

47:30 Did your biological dad serve in the war in vietnam no my my biological dad i don't know him oh okay yeah i haven't spoken to him since i was like seven years old wow yeah so do Wow. Yeah. Good luck. They don't. What's good about it? And I was allowed to think about the world through my own experiences. It's always going to be, especially if they don't have biological kids of their own, because

50:08 This life is so different now. You have to, one of the things I always do is whenever I correct my kids with anything, This is just a part of being a person. Because there are some things you have to indoctrinate. like you got to get them alone too when the two of them are together sometimes it's like hey about it oh mrs wilson she's the best she's so much fun she gets there we all love her and you

53:26 That requires Herculean patience. being around a very miserable person like that. And it'll help you appreciate the Mrs. Wilsons. talk to him? That's a good question. I don't know. You know I think once I got really Right, right, which isn't always the best way either. You try to put it out and the cinders are just still there. My parents talk about it to this day.

56:07 For some people, it's piano, right? Like, whatever this feeling, this emotion, got very fortunate very very very fortunate, very fortunate that I ran into an Well, it's like— And most people do. They did for a bit. They're into sports. I think like 19 and 20-year-old human beings are the most interesting people on the planet. Yeah. There's so much potential, but also so much insecurity.

59:18 it had like a hegemonic role in the world that it does not have now. And, you know, worry about the Cold War and all that jazz? You know, yes and no. I mean, you know, everyone read Fail Safe and everyone watched movies about, you know, the Cuban Missile Crisis and Red Dawn and all of that. this is really the twilight of the Cold War, right, is the 1980s, you know. And, you know,

1:01:30 And that's what Reagan kind of did to them, spent them into a corner. Because we know the women want nylon pantyhose. I mean, like, you know, it isn't. bestseller. And it's just kind of what's going to happen after the big one and so I do remember that Reagan was famous for that one speech that he made in front of the United Nations where he was talking about how quickly we would come together if we were faced with a threat from an alien world.

1:04:16 Oh, yeah. That's what's scary. Right. Many of them are simple, attractive, and wrong. Some of them are surprisingly accurate. Right? It's the craziest story because Tom was a neighbor He finds out that the Manson thing was connected to the CIA mind control experiments that they War. It's interesting you mentioned the Soviet Union, because the history there is they first

1:07:11 So, you know, they always had – that's one of the terrible logics about the Cold War is you could shift on a dime, right? And they would dose these johns up and have these poor guys just like tripping on acid and not have any idea what happened and you know they would listen to them talk to the prostitutes it's i mean no it's it's They had some leftover acid from some other creepy experiments.

1:08:31 and they closed it down just a couple months Right. I mean, you know, don't have secret LSD experiments that go for 20 years. talk without using your mouth. But wasn't Joe then in the interview where you shared a blunt with him? Was it? would be good. And now this monkey's playing Pong with his brain. I want to play him. Yeah. People would do that.

1:12:19 Is that good? They called me boot, which means ghost in Nepali. I gave her the name Santi, which was my favorite female Nepali name. The cow urine for sure. Yes. No, I haven't. And these are not pets, you know? they're treated really well and it's it's confusing right because it's like okay is that the way to do and they show what a complicated society these rats have.

1:15:37 That's why they've been featured in so many experiments. And you just did a tiny little piece. And there was, yeah, there was this like this guy from, I'm trying to remember the country. Because I'm an older brother. This is what the process was and often bring gifts. You're the guy who asked what boini thinks. And then I'd say, well, there's this thing called divorce, you know? And what I realized

1:18:41 many different ways there are to be human and always to resist the automatic assumption that your way is the better way, you know, because we all do that, too. I mean, that's how, you know, shoemakers especially because they deal with cows. And so the Hindu system evolved to have a caste that did precisely that. Well, I mean, here's the story. listen, Ama, I just don't believe in caste. You know, I think everyone's the same.

1:21:00 statement about how all people are equal. Well, you know what? I mean, 20 years Yeah. Right. They can bring you something. Right. Because it's a reciprocal arrangement. Right. How bizarre. But the one thing that was really different, and this speaks to globalization, is a lot of the not for personal ones. You know, it's not about what she thinks or about what he thinks.

1:24:39 They weren't a cause of it. acceptance of it, right? Well, again, I'm not And I've always loved that. But in another part of the world, they do that. And that's decreasingly the case, by the way. they take their passport and then they pay them a fraction of that and they live in squalor. I mean, you know, I found great Nepali food there because, you know, I love Nepali food.

1:27:59 community. And so what I ate for two and a half years was rice, dal, and whatever vegetable was in season. In Nepali, that means a holiday, like one day a week or something like that. That's crazy. So what that means is you can come and work for us for sure. Well, built this very specific area. Like you're not really sure. Wow. It's like, look, I'm not really sure, right?

1:31:12 eye-opening because we're so accustomed to the way people live here yeah we're so accustomed to it Yeah, he taught English and he was working as a journalist there. yeah it's it's weird how there's these different styles of living. Oh, and different gender ideas and norms for sure. The gym in the hotel was all fucked up. It's sort of like Joe Rogan's show.

1:33:35 Yeah. But if you want to do what we do, that's how you have to live. Right. Right. And, you know, I've been taking my kids overseas since they were two. And we had servants and things like that because, you know, you're a Westerner living in an But what an incredible privilege that I was even in that situation. that'd be amazing. What do you think? I think the four hour dinner thing, there's probably

1:36:13 when it got super hot in the afternoon. because she was doing a gig at a hospital there. And at noon, all the docs stopped working and they went to a dining hall, a very well appointed What's it like being on the floor? Ford of Lamborghini? There wasn't one, right? I mean, Ford's genius was to make a car as quickly Yeah. Not so great at policing and crime fighting.

1:39:25 Yeah. We're happy over here? But really what it is is that they have know, they have really good health care. No, actually, they're not. gonna have your bills paid whether you going to be able to take care of yourself. You might be the only one. interesting debate about that. How big do we want the state to be? How many services do we want to you know. Again, that's not my jam, but I think that we should hear that. Yeah, the problem with

1:43:54 We do, but the border is kind of a bit of a crisis. That's probably all very true. Those are real questions, right? And I don't know where your ancestors come from, but, you know, mine came from, you know, Poland, Russia, and Lithuania. And they got in easy. Yeah. Right. past all sorts of American efforts to intervene in the politics of those countries in ways that

1:47:50 And realized they had given him double jeopardy. and he successfully argued it and got released, But he was like a big-time drug dealer, but he was illiterate. But meanwhile, he was getting all that coke and selling all it Yeah. And what's cool about tennis is it's not a contact sport. Like the very first time I started hitting and I was like, okay, done with basketball.

1:50:14 Because it turns out with tennis that unless you're very good, which I'm not and never will be, that almost every point is decided based on who concentrates more. What's amazing is that there are 19,000 people around them best of, you know, best of five sets. But, you know, it's really taught me a lot about how important focus is. And I'm not in the point anymore.

1:52:03 Archery. In a weird way. And yet, though, it can also be a source of them because I've also discovered since I've taken up tennis You know exactly Let's just stop playing. Right. you will be able to do it better. that you should never just go all the way through. You have an idea, but you just can't find. Yeah. Did I say Pinker? I was thinking the same.

1:55:24 go watch YouTube videos or Google anything. because there's something to it. If you really did behave as if some higher power laid out the 20 years. Yeah. And I think, again, we're almost too close to that to really take its measure. You know, because I think, you know, I think lots of evolutionary psychologists have tried to make the claim that we are joiners.

1:58:19 pure hatred for the other side inability to look at the virtues of this opposing ideology, I mean, it's really crazy. No. when I was younger. back to English rather, and in a way that, you know, or to Greek or to English ultimately. But it's funny. earnings and all these different aspects of religion that I think really lends itself to I don't walk around wondering if there's a God.

2:03:04 Right. You say, remember that you were a slave in Egypt, right? Okay, the stuff with the parting of the Red Sea, okay, there you get into the faith realm. any proof on this score. Right? with God. Right. Like not to me. Yeah. It's guidelines for how to live. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Guidelines, guidelines, impulses, perspectives, you know, all that stuff. And I think, you know, we need that. We place where people agree to worship together.

2:06:23 and just think about all the real I mean, think of, you know, the play Book of Mormon, which, by the way, I think is brilliant. Well, first of all, one thing, Mormons have a great sense of humor. Right. Right. This fucking dead lake. You know, they oppressed women like slavery oppressed African-Americans. I mean, what I think is fascinating, how the LDS establishment handled that.

2:09:09 Like on the second page, there's an ad from the Mormon church from LDS. but they are so friendly and so nice. It really isn't. We mentioned the Peace Corps. Yes. I mean, they had branches down there and all that. of the Bamberger, I think it was department stores. You know about the guy who spent all Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so at one point, a couple years ago, they declared that Anne Frank, you know, the Holocaust victim, was a Mormon.

2:12:52 How weird. because it's so American and so new, I think there are a lot of tensions between, let's just Yeah, well, the thing about history, particularly like history before photographs, is there's a lot of fuckery. In the sense that when the Vikings got there, there was literally no one there. Right? You've probably heard these, these sort of new Native American affirmations. And look, I'm a historian. I think

2:16:28 that team, right? And, you know, those people were conquered, right? They were victims, but They might be just there to trade or they might be there to rape and pillage. Yeah. And obviously, disease is the big reason for that. then white people show up and within a few years everyone's dead for the right 90 disease disease They're really not sure what happened to the Mayans.

2:18:48 Imagine this one small area Right. But, of course, you know, the people in that part of the world did not horrific things to other people well before the conquistadors got there. they had a ritual sacrifice Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Because it's something insane. So they're killing 80,000 people with swords. You know, that actually patronizes the people they encountered, I think,

2:21:48 except the Pacific Heights neighborhood You know? yeah so a long weekend 84 000 fucking people that is people. That is so crazy. That is so crazy. Yeah. And so we should be able They believed that human sacrifice was the highest form of karmic healing. Jesus. 1,000 people every hour with a three-hour break to take, you know. to kill to kill a thousand in an hour?

2:24:04 How many of them were obsessed with human ritual sacrifice to appease gods, because they were so terrified But here's what was not human about them. Have you ever heard of Brian Murorescu? How do you say that word? Eleusinian mysteries? Eleusinian, that's it. From different things. Was it in Spain? I mean, that would explain Oedipus. certain people to do the shit work, right?

2:28:21 And make people, like you were talking about Nepal, the structure Whoa. And if you went on to like, Americans for Democratic Action, you took their little tests And it just cracks me up because like, why else would you be mouthing off about free speech? that Frederick Douglass and Suzy B. Anthony and Martin Luther King, they were all free speech to say certain words like mantras. But if you want to persuade

2:32:12 And just like lots of things, I think it has complicated origins and not entirely bad ones. you weren't harmed because I can't look into your soul to say that. I think I would just simply say There's also intent. And it adds to the stigma, right? look, there are examples of that in recent history. I mean, think about the term queer, That is interesting.

2:35:23 I'm queer. I mean, for me, it's the good stuff. Instead of trying to just rationally communicate with you, It's an annoying way to communicate. And it becomes much like tennis is a game. It becomes a game, right? It becomes a game that people play verbally. I think that comes with the territory, you know. Armband? He's a good friend, actually. Anyway, she's become a friend, and she came up to my class at Penn.

2:39:13 So she tells her story about getting sent home and eventually getting the ACLU to represent her and becoming what she is, which is this kind of great symbol and also voice for free speech. dying in Southeast Asia. You don't think they were hurt by this snot-nosed kid wearing this symbol saying that their loved one was risking their life for a lie? Like, you don't think that

2:40:37 Right. Speech was the only power I had. a Confederate flag on your T-shirt or, you know, an anti-abortion symbol? do anything about that, you got to let everyone talk. That's the only way. The only way to make from some pretty offensive and awful speech, you know? it? That's not how it works. guy with an American flag on his lapel. and he was going to trick us kids into saying in this way of saying it that was very like almost

2:46:07 The answer to bad speech is not deplatforming. like really simple utopian ideas that a lot of And we've seen this over and over again. And censorship almost always does. biggest target for anti-semitic hate online the biggest yeah and, he can point to like actual statistics of social media and show you the numbers. It's just, he's not alt-right, you know, he's a conservative

2:49:07 Like, it has been and it will be. area. Anyway, you know, Frank's a fascinating figure, important figure in the history of the this country. Bodybuilding. Right? Well, no, not bodybuilding in particular, but those- I remember Barney Frank made fun of him for his American flag on his lapel. Well, it was started weaponizing a certain sort of- Evangelical.

2:52:45 program now. And, you know, I would say, actually, I think the worst outcome is the one that we can't really measure, which is just kind of the sort of the spirit of self-censorship. Yeah, exactly. And we did a unit about pornography and pornography censorship and regulation and all that. They were from porn movies from, this would have been probably the early aughts, something

2:54:10 that, because not everyone had, people didn't have as much access to the internet. I mean, And I'm like, look, dude, I'm not a bloody movie scene guy either. It is silly. And also it's like, I wonder what happened there. if we had an evolutionary psychologist here, they would just say, look, it's pretty simple. Exactly. They're going to be people with all sorts of, you know, all kinds of fetishes

2:57:32 And I think it would have fucked me up in a whole number of ways. right? I mean, just by law, right? The stuff involving minors, for example, right? students, I really like that sweater that you're wearing. And if you wear it again, I'll give you Let's have a free speech discussion about free speech that is free and unbridled, where of material and substantial disruption to learning.

3:00:49 which in his later years he was known to do. But you can wear an armband. And you may have read that the Supreme Court just yesterday was hearing a case about this. Okay. And remember, this is just to the kids in her chat. But there's another kid on the chat Right. school might reasonably sanction. Like, let's suppose she had shared answers to a test that she wasn't supposed to have access to, right? That would disrupt

3:04:21 superintendents organization, also the Biden's Department of Education, they rallied around the school. Right. And you can use those carefully if you like. to that is, look, we have anti-harassment laws. We already have those, right? I mean, they're just learning how to use these phones anyway. Listen, man, we just went through three hours, believe it or not.

3:05:42 So there's cartoons in here. It was fun.