Joe Rogan Experience #1653 — Andy Norman Transcript

Transcript

0:00 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! Boy, could we all use this. Sounds like you get the basic premise. One of them we were talking about was UFOs. There was a big 60 Minutes piece last night that aired and talking to Christopher Mellon, book, right? Falsehoods are mind parasites. And more generally, bad ideas, all kinds of bad ideas It infiltrates. actually more here than meets the eye mind parasites might just be real yeah I

3:37 Yeah, which is nocebo is very real. They're like, oh, my God, this guy's dying. He thought he was dying released from the hospital. I'm going to write this down now. He's a Dutch journalist who's written a couple of bestsellers now. Where's that fella at? his premise is? prophecy. of what we philosophers do. And a lot of times that doesn't make us particularly popular.

7:20 And some of those antibodies actually consume pathogens in our body. of some sort of mental immune system. But like what It seems like I'd get injured doing that. You ran a little simulation in your mind. that my language okay I might say that if we were in front of the fire honestly They were sticking magnets on themselves Yeah, sure. You're our lucky customer number 100.

11:37 what it would do because I think you understand something about conspiracy thinking, which is that a conspiracy theory infected mind becomes so good at generating and attack your body itself, your mind's immune system can go haywire and your questions and your doubts and your suspicions can attack your mind. But the problem is that'll send you down a rabbit hole.

13:29 Hollow Earth Theory? Oh, okay. you start to realize, wait a minute here, So I was telling him, I'm like, listen, man, this is nonsense. but go ahead there was a time in the history of the West when astrology made a certain amount of sense. Would you mind pulling this just a little bit closer to your face like I've got here? It's interesting in that there are these constellations,

16:50 Right. Right. I don't think they think about it that way, honestly. But the point is that this guy that I knew had a parasite, So if you, for example, accept that clinging to your articles of faith, no matter what, is a virtue, Yeah. I mean, so science is clearly a shining example of what's possible in the way of idea and it's one that has done a huge amount to educate

21:18 point where you don't need any systems that you follow? Humility, specifically. of how people do this. They get super tribal. They only look at the other side as being bad they have to be the virtuous beliefs. So you invite them in? And we think that practicing the art of difficult conversation I wasn't very open-minded. Yes. Our world needs listening.

26:17 So there are four main ways, four main skill sets involved in communicating with fellow Listening. who's not you look at this? Yeah. Because if you don't say it, you're never going to trust yourself. It's a big one. the ideas that are flooding into your mind, they're not you. And you'll shut it down. and will argue with them, argue for them with emotion and use tactics and talk over people,

30:48 This is one of the things I concluded from having studied the mind's immune system. When you start using reasons as weapons, you're actually subverting your mind's immune system. If you're doing that, Yeah. Absolutely. So you might have a bunch of reasons why you believe some things, and maybe the reasons on the other side aren't enough to dislodge them.

33:08 Yeah, they do. But it became a narrative. I have been down that rabbit hole. The big one for me is the bullet itself. account for a guy who got hit by a ricochet under the underpass do you know that story makes no And we need to be able to investigate that and find the truth. Yeah, I was picked up in the Warren Commission to try to And he went over the Warren Commission. He's like, he went over the warrant he's like he went over you know

36:57 by saying that I still think that – I do not think the JFK assassination was a lone wolf. Right. pleasure that they get in being able to sound intelligent. Yeah, Q sent me. underground bases where they have all this like highly top-secret technology And what I mean by it, the guy was living with his mom. Mine are actually good. And here's the thing, right?

40:55 And we can understand how these mental immune systems work. Did you do the audio? Not going to do it. No. mess with your mind's immune system. Here's one that's not well understood. So for 2,000 years, So that's a plausible understanding of what makes beliefs, ideas reasonable. Well, check to see if I can find some reasons for it. But we can trade that in for a better picture of reasonable belief that increases our

44:11 Well, one of the things you see people doing online, it's a funny thing. They try to find Exactly. make sure it can withstand questioning and good questioning. And he was right. We need to bring back the Socratic picture of reasonable belief, conspiracy theory from the killing of JFK. Like, well, why? Why? Like, why would it be the friends So you actually have to work to overcome tribalism to become a clear and fair-minded thinker.

47:26 Like, I don't know if universal basic income is a good idea, but I tend to support it. So I'm technically a liberal. I hunt, you know, and there's, I believe in hard to everyone and I think it's detrimental and then become a happy, healthy, put you in the liberal category. Yeah, most of them. So I actually think, recommend that instead of hitching your identity to beliefs, hitch your identity to honest inquiry.

50:40 Yeah. So maybe there's an argument there. Maybe as we evolve, we can figure out a way to do it and take into account the fact that people need incentives. That's one of the things that people don't take into account when they look at people But you have to take into account this guy has probably been grinding for 35 years. genuinely enjoy those things so beautiful so I'm doing it because I

52:36 I went into philosophy for the money. He's probably a cult leader. slippery slope then. A little bit. If people start paying attention to what I say. A little bit. with, which is everyone is entitled to their opinion. So I actually call this idea a mental They go, I'm entitled to my belief. to believe. To the extent that we're entitled to our opinion is a claim about our political rights,

55:22 We have rights in the way of thinking, but we also have responsibilities, You don't want to invite thought police. white supremacy and a lot of these other like QAnon type things, a lot of very soft minded problem is that we have an election cycle. So if someone's going to talk it through but a lot of our problem is that we have an election cycle so if someone's gonna talk it through but November's two weeks away

57:54 our own thoughts or trying to police each other's thoughts while allowing debate and while allowing Q claims to be a government insider. I think that was the original. I don't know that it did hear about 8chan. I don't know. I think that was the original. Right. What he's saying there is that this dialogue, this conversational attempt to mitigate the spread of falsehoods isn't always fast enough to prevent the harm.

1:00:30 So you have a bunch of people, reasons to delete posts, reasons to So this man is not a mask denier. I think I do absolutely believe that masks provide protection. before. Colds, way less than ever before. Which shows that masks do reduce transmission. So that is a powerful example to force me to think more deeply about this. Well, I seem to be saying that there needs to be some sense.

1:03:50 Yeah. I'm not sure if I know the details either. I just know that I was reading a story about How'd they do that? The homestretch towards the election, right? agency and all the various fake Organized events and they organized events right next to other events that they organized that had opposing viewpoints And they would battle it out. Because the only reason why this works is because it's anonymous posting.

1:07:15 supposedly. Yes. And if they were really psycho and they had a lot of time and they were dedicated, they could make up a bunch of fake things about you. So, I mean, we know this about power without accountability corrupts. It's not even a person who's like spreading lies. in the end if we do. Right. But here's the real problem, problem right is that there's a profit incentive

1:10:03 algorithms encouraged disc they encourage conflict and he was like is and his theory was that everyone's saying that these algorithms encourage You're not going to learn shit from my YouTube. Go for entertainment. harmful but if you're a knucklehead and that's what you're interested in that the problem is an apple. So this makes perfect sense in light of... So philosophers have noticed for a long time that our cravings can often lead us to do self-destructive things. Right. Lust can lead you to

1:12:59 your capacity to reason to test ideas in dialogue and the way, you can have the dialogue within your own head, and you don't know exactly what to do. without like a rock solid belief system And I'm gonna wear these magic underwear and Jesus is looking out for me. That story is so much like the story, is an illusion, I know that hell is just an idea that was created to control behavior of children.

1:16:16 Yeah. All of what? that's bullshit too well and then you start going down the line those psychics And you remove that structure and I know a lot of people like that who are really good people that happen to be Christian of god and he had all this information he tried he tried to tell us, and someone hung him up on a cross and What's the good ones? Sure.

1:20:12 Or you can try to build immunity to bad ideas and let the chips fall where they may. But you know what I'm saying? I don't have any quick and easy answers. I don't have a silver bullet answer. But I will tell you than censor the sources. And then we can begin to help our families and friends. of collaborative idea testing. This is what I did. You know, just guys, tell me what you think of this idea.

1:24:27 Yes, yes. it's actually quite complicated right because we because we all eat and it's hard to not overeat. Yes. blankets that they don't ever want to let go. Our beliefs feel the same way. But it was fighting off good information, true information. to a perceived threat. engulfing the tip of the thorn, and devouring it. What happens in your mind? That's your mind's immune system reacting.

1:28:39 Okay, I see what you're saying. Did you, when you were a young person, did you start off on this path of thinking this way? promoting dialogue, honest, truth-seeking dialogue. That was my kind of core conviction. And so I you got to think about what's important in life and you got to talk about what's important in life Yeah. And not even just mind parasites, but just alternative perspectives or perspectives based on

1:32:00 Yeah, that should be enforced. I mean, there's so many of those where it's like, God, boys, let it go. And you say, hey, kids, come on over to the story rug. them down a path towards growing morally that's going to serve them well. So you can get kids And then they ask them, you know, tell me about a cherished belief. And then they ask gentle, clarifying questions to

1:34:46 It is. But I also don't want anybody to be on their heels. it on his two daughters, who are like seven and five. He sits them down with a bowl of strawberries, philosophers have been exploring for thousands of years. And if we have even kids exploring them outside and stare into the night sky and think about the fact that there's no end Did you get vertigo with the sense that we're spinning through space? I just always knew space was big, you know?

1:38:03 blue planet is. And the humility that comes how tiny our little blue planet is and the humility Billions and billions. Guy was into space and smoking weed all the time. Yes. every joy, every civilization has lived or died Have you ever been up there? The way they have it set up is they have diffused lighting on the Big Island, and it's because of the observatory.

1:41:24 nice star filledfilled night. Oh, I'd like to see that. Oh, man, that's gorgeous. Wow. It doesn't, that's what it looks like. Like the Mayans in particular, they mirrored the cosmos in their, in many constellations I've got a friend who teaches astronomy at Carnegie Mellon University, Most people don't ever get to see stars like that. It's only people that live in extremely

1:43:57 Yeah, Dr. Matthew Walker. And I think we get humble when we're around spectacular examples of nature's beauty, right? Dick and Muir Woods. It's just so pretty. Well, humbling yourself before God or humbling yourself before nature, are you treating those as one and the same thing? with birds and alien beings. But I actually think that there's a place for it in this world because there are things that words don't capture.

1:47:24 Yeah. And that transcended experiences are real. just get sucked back into the drone of the grind of the day-to-day existence of being an ant. facsimiles. I've done none. to administer them we would have been way further off as a society those two Even just the exercise part. I'll say 25%. The CDC says fewer than one in four. What are the federal physical guidelines?

1:51:41 You were spot on, Joe. So what are the guidelines? Oh, look at that. Okay. 25% in my state, home state of PA. They're fucked. 32. I would have never guessed that. Yeah. It's like Texas. It's easier to do it, though. I think, like, when you go to Boulder, Colorado, that's one of the places that I've gone where I'm like, Oh, my God. substantial about that inspirational yes yeah pitts Pittsburgh doesn't have that, I'm afraid.

1:54:56 It's actually a really nice sense of community there. But it's growing like crazy, right? Pittsburgh has another thing going for it, though, the cold weather. You'll catch me in a good month because of the springs here. You know, you don't, just taking a vitamin is okay, but there's a feeling that you get It's not like we overwork, we undersleep, we eat shit, we don't exercise for the most part.

1:57:33 I think you're right. It's awful because it's avoidable. and sometimes some people come up to me, it's overwhelming. And, you know, and my, my wife is the same way. And he told me like a few years ago, he started listening and just changed his life. Man, keep, keep tape. We're doing things so much differently. And he told me a few years ago he started listening

1:58:59 like you and I are just talking. Yeah, that's not good. You won't speak your mind. And you got a kind of like know that people are watching because you want to do a really good job Yep, and they'll take things and decide that they're slight transgressions, you're not looking them in the eye, And you're like, oh, did I? Your fucking memory sucks. Yeah.

2:01:55 a lot of times you're selling your relationship down the river. Yep. Right. You're selling yourself short too, because you know, you're a piece of shit for doing that. You know, it's, Or why do I think this way? It's a really common idea. It's just not that well adopted in practice. And it's because I've Problem is you can lose your friends if you do that.

2:04:24 obviously in Socrates' case, it was worse because it wasn't his friends. they'll start to see where their own worldview can use a little bit of modification themselves. It's just the fact that you have headphones on, right? If you don't have that, it's real easy to go, yeah, we've talked enough. you're just going to talk. Maybe we should all do this. It would be very beneficial to a lot of

2:06:54 Yeah, it's similar. And conversations are the same thing. It has the opposite intended effect. Do you mean brains? you're all players kids how to play the reason giving game. I think it's a far and away better approach, better approach We're competitive by nature, right? hanging out with leonardo caprio people like what yeah were you yeah like no one basically like

2:11:00 Like when someone insults you instead of like changing your mind by giving you a better example of something. How does that work? But if you think about how many times you and I have had these conversations and you've been in the room while people have, I'm a part of a think tank. It's basically just Cognitive Immunology Research Collaborative. That's kind of step one.

2:13:12 It does make sense. I'll send it to you. It's like people who are fighting and they don't know how to do martial arts. I'm sure you've seen a drunken brawl, And it's also bad for you. our minds go downhill fast. yeah whereas we should be eating you know health food like Terry Terry Black's is not going looking for arguments to win I'm a philosophical counselor.

2:16:45 important and what's not important. Fair enough. We got to burn it all down, man. so hard up there and i think one of the reasons why it ramped up so hard over there is they're They had this area – what did they call it again? Listen, other people called it. Because if you do this and you decide you're going to take over all these buildings and you're going to smash these windows and you're going to occupy these streets, what you're not recognizing is you didn't build any of this shit.

2:20:00 Well, they started doing the exact same things that a dictator would do. Like how does this end? So ideas like stand in the middle of a stream. And religion is right that the downstream consequences of our beliefs matter. They both have to be able to let go of of the ideas that dialogue reveals to be problematic downstream logical consequences of an idea.

2:23:58 So that's called, the ancients had a word, a Latin word for this, reductio, reductio ad absurdum. the idea. You end up with a contradiction. So even scientists don't just look at upstream data upstream evidence and downstream consequences and consider them all. Like, how does a culture feel about things? Oppenheimer and the Manhattan Project, right?

2:26:40 What have I done? Yeah. It's a great example of the possible consequences of just following the data and the science. Because if you have a goal, and here's the goal, And then there's mutually assured self-destruction that somehow or another stops us there was some sort of a systems glitch and they thought that the flock of geese that had triggered the radar

2:28:57 that we need to pay attention to the downstream effects of the beliefs we have. that make good sense to us. gets people interested in exploring ideas in a more objective and analytical way? I've connected the dots and basically said this science is coming. to your own thinking and you go, oh yeah, right from wrong, truth from falsehood, but we can all get a hell of a lot better. In fact,

2:32:00 And everybody else has work to do to get wiser. That's a problem as well. if you have one foot in one of these pitfalls it can be hard to see it yeah It's like I think you have to have done it yourself to see it in other people too. Think about the six-year-old little girl who will believe in the truth fairy. I like that. That time you got it right.

2:34:04 I like the truth fairy though Oh I got a story on that How about we trademark it together? Just get out there. Right. I said, Yes, Kai, what's up? And I remember them going, of it all together. your fucking chimney. In fact, you're probably Can I tell you another story? It's where Barry Weiss, her family was from there as well. fine. We met God. And my wife and I look at each other and go like, whoa, what, huh, what? I said,

2:37:38 He stopped in. Wow. Wouldn't he? like a special forces guy counts. Yeah, I mean how many a long, distinguished beard. and a bunch of us online, and he was an adventurous person and went on, I guess, what you would call a walkabout and died in the desert. He was into that. Okay, there you go. Yeah, I just did an event this weekend. He valued life experience.

2:41:14 and they just want something different. I mean this is an imaginary world, right? called Newport Creamery and another place called Papa Gino's these Yeah. I remember I was driving limos yeah it's one of my jobs and there was this guy who uh they were looking at as an example of who we could be and i remember this guy was overweight 60 hours a week.

2:43:46 good for me for me was I don't want to do that I gotta get out of here well I Well, and then you get obligations, right? Either or. Whatever you're trying to do, you have to do it like you're trying to save your life. A lot of things have to go right. The follow through, the grind, you to change. Sometimes year old guy. That could mess you up. Something like that, yeah. No, I would imagine, first of all, winning the lottery is also like,

2:47:05 I'm trying to start a business. They suddenly have money and then the people close to them start asking for handouts. It's like they go bankrupt within three years, I think. on espn 78 of former nfl players have gone bankrupt or are under financial stress financial Which might account for the difference between the NBA and the NFL. Can I share a personal story on this? Sure.

2:49:33 the NFL wide receiver. workout. He comes over after. He's a perfect gentleman, terrific guy. He signs some t-shirts, They're teaching you how to catch. I don't think it works that way. It's a rough sport in terms of the damage that it does to your body and your head. particularly after that concussion movie that came out with Will Smith. It is. It's easy on the brain and also a beautiful sport.

2:52:25 Yeah, you had him on your show. Yeah, he's a killer at it. No, I'm sure I would like it, watching it and stuff. I mean, that's Marcus Brownlee. Yeah, you had him on your show. Yeah, I'm sure. is that a frisbee? Yeah, frisbee, it's just disc that has a lot of stability. Yeah, yeah. Just one disc for Ultimate Frisbee. That's right. The pro league calls it ultimate disc.

2:54:25 And you'd be like, do you commentate on Ultimate Disc? Do you know where they get their brain damage from? I've had on multiple times that I'm friends with. He's like that constant rattling of the brain gives people CTE. It's the impact. the pituitary gland gets damaged. And the pituitary gland apparently is a very sensitive No kidding. and lack of energy all traceable to pituitary damage? A lot of it is traceable to TBI, traumatic brain injury,

2:57:21 did you know that the philosopher Descartes learned a little bit Oh, I got it wrong. Yeah. Look at even how it dips down. Yeah. is an intro or temple in man temple in man um, I think is one of the temples is literally it represents the various parts of the human being. day don't exactly know how they did it. And they were so interested in preserving this story of, here it is, temple in man.

3:00:57 And you mentioned like the Mayans and the Aztecs between or something yeah that's in Egypt as well there's there's there's I actually think that that burning of the library of Alexandria was one of the key reasons we descended into a thousand-year dark age. Yeah. It's certainly possible, right? It's certainly possible. And my fear, more than anything,

3:04:03 The best stuff that we have is all carved in stone, like the Rosetta Stone that showed us how these different of it was under a mile of ice, right? since that last ice age. Yeah, they think, but here's another, there's another theory. It's the left behind core if you did they when they do core samples you can find this I Yes. And science is amazing.

3:07:15 these deep fissures around it that seem to indicate thousands of years of rainfall the around the Great, around the Sphinx. And so it used to be the thought was where are these ancient structures from 12,000 years ago that would indicate that it would be possible for a civilization from that time period to create something so magnificent. Yeah. He said, no, there's no evidence of wind and sand being able to do that.

3:09:49 And the Sphinx dates back to that earlier? How about that? And at one point in time was than she did to the building of the Great Pyramid. where civilization thrived and then fell And then if you add in Robert Shock's theory about the construction of the Sphinx, true, then you've got, you know, who knows how many thousand BC, 10,000 BC, Cuneiform is like, what is that?

3:13:21 That's what's really crazy. Yeah. Actually, I think I misspoke a minute ago. I mean, it only took 100 generations to go back to basically the beginning of my discipline, philosophy, as we understand it now. 57. hundred years before that, you have slavery. No electric light. and yet how recent. with the invention of the internet. Available now from Andy Norman.

3:16:29 Bye, everybody.