Joe Rogan Experience #1661 — Rick Doblin Transcript

Transcript

0:00 the joe rogan experience train by day joe rogan podcast by night all day And he's going through our program to learn how to give MDMA therapy to other police officers. Get it to prisoners. There was a 35-year follow-up study I did to Timothy Leary when he was at Harvard. What did he do? same at the 10-month point. So it's obvious if you compare people who've been out of prison longer

4:13 just help people have these experiences and then let them out of prison and assume that they'll And if you do that, I think it could potentially work. the argument about psychedelics not being life-changing, people will say, well, I know a you have this completely different view of the They tell you what to do, but then you become accustomed to that way of life.

7:31 Maybe then I can get back on track. but mostly it's not. And you need this support afterwards and you need to integrate it. is alcohol abuse and doing the same things you've done before and ruining your life and taking suffering. And it was a way to be bonded still with them. Then he said, I'm taking opiates for pain, but I don't really think I'm taking it for pain.

10:17 help us. And he agreed to do that. And at the two-month follow-up, no PTSD. And then around 11 I've been in touch with him recently. And that is what their brothers and sisters would want. I always thought that the way, it's not that I didn't realize that I had insecurities, No one had any. oh this person's a piece of shit. beautiful innocent child and then the worst shit happened to them the worst environments

15:06 way of looking at babies, which is what they are. They're just babies that got, look, you and I are yes then you get to go really deep but I social programs yes programs where they're counseled And in the middle of my first year of college, I called up my parents and said, I'm going to drop out of college. guys at the synagogue. And when I got there, I was with about 60 high

18:06 meet this guy at the synagogue to give him these books in Moscow. And he said, we're being watched. very enlightening. But one of the things that was most enlightening for me was I took a walk on the But I had this image that all the Russians are horrible and hateful and they all want to kill us. And we would, there was about eight of us and we would, each of us, it takes about 15 minutes,

20:27 like squares and then I just had this insight It's all the product of all these people that came before me. capacity that if we want to claim that we're connected with everything, that it's not just these speeches, like the Nuremberg rally kind of things. And the ketamine gave me a bit of And I felt like it was the one pushing out this energy and then the many pushing it back

23:25 breathe. And so I realized that if I just breathe, that might help me deal with this fear. And I started deep breathing. And then came this idea that, ironically, rather than trying to change This Hitler thing, can I ask you, like, when, I've never done ketamine, so when you're having And it was way, you know, I've seen movies of World War II and I've seen movies of Hitler giving

25:30 Um, I've tried to look it up and find it. I don't know where anything is. world was fueled by amphetamines and cocaine and testosterone, And just psychotic delusions. Also, we know that John Kennedy was given amphetamines. Historyhit.com. he demanded a second shot. about the war effort and perhaps raise the prospect of Italy leaving. But I had heard-

30:05 Wow. How many miles is that? People talk about a world without drugs. Do you know that Carl Hart, we've invited him to join the board of directors of MAPS. perspective based on data and then realize like oh no no no this is this is most of what we think He's being courageous, incredibly courageous. lives. They don't ruin my life. And you look at his life, his life is great. He's not getting

33:31 it might not be surprising to anybody, but we don't do drug testing for employees. It's all but it's not about what you do. And then one of my favorite things, actually, and we put this in What? I thought I was working at MAPS. And we will let people work with us who don't do drugs. They come from the ether, right? And he had to hide that because he was worried he wouldn't be part of the space program if it was clear that he was smoking pot all the time.

36:31 And Lester had a book of stories about people who had used marijuana for different purposes. But for word and you prime somebody and then you see how they respond. And so there's been research done And that's where I think creativity can come from because you're able to look at things in a new way. You know, how do our brains process information? or to sort of try to optimize your perspective on things.

39:49 I've already sort of done work to keep myself in a good place with all those things, So they can do, it can help them put all those pieces in line in terms of their personal But with MDMA in particular, it reduces activity in the amygdala, the fear processing part of the brain. So you have this They see the whole world through this filter of trauma.

42:41 of activity in the amygdala, through this promotion of release of oxytocin, which is the hormone of nursing mothers of love and connection, that you have this sense of safety, self-compassion, as I said, and then you can move into these troubled areas. But for the most part, there's not a clear cut, disciplined pathway that exists for people where they can like if you're

44:27 places where legitimate professionals who have an expertise in psychedelics and perhaps psychology like, and then maybe have someone who could help you devise a strategy to optimize your life based there should be FDA approval for psilocybin, for depression, potentially for alcohol use disorder, looking at the whole human. And there's been a lot of discussion about different kind of

47:11 I never could actually track it down to Einstein. was talking about. And I think it's a more universal, spiritual, we're all in this together. Well, also, let's look at it this way. We're talking about an education outside of traditional They got this from pursuing it. And also, how the fuck do you connect one-on-one with 50 people interested at all in what they were teaching I was interested in comic books and I was interested in

51:30 Because you can really get far just paying attention to what you're interested in and foster that. There was no grades, all written the students and the I said this is what my bar mitzvah should have been. and it was by Stanislav Grof, who's the world's leading LSD researcher, one of the co-founders But it felt to me that it was science looking at the range of experiences that we can have.

56:30 guidance counselor, after he gave me the book, he said that he was in touch with Stan. And I said, Festival that was in Colorado. I didn't know about it, but I just saw signs as I was hitchhiking. he was so used to letting his feelings out. We were in a soundproof padded room. We'd go in there. all of this, which was really kind of them. But I wasn't where I wanted to be because I had this mistaken idea, which was the

59:25 back home. I'm the oldest of four kids, so I was a terrible example for my siblings, And so I was really good at handball. they gave this mansion to New College when Mrs. Capels died. And the very first semester, I went to the same school, to New College. And the very first And so that's where I said, I got to get political and I can start introducing MDMA to various people who would take it, like Lester Grinspoon.

1:02:58 that's so ridiculous. We need a safety study with MDMA. And it was because Terrence going on and on the Western culture, when we think about the origins of the Western culture, we think about They're really interested in this. And so we talk about different times in the Middle Ages when whole villages would sort of go crazy. to an early frost which coincides with ergot poisoning of wheat.

1:05:47 Of course you would think that there's witches. Yeah. He's decided not to take psychedelic. I think eventually he may do that, but he wanted, Again, and when you experience it, it's so beyond your imagination or what you could have possibly you. Brian has a lot to look forward to. Oh my God, he does. He's owed it. His work has been amazingly helpful because of the fact that he is sober and because of the fact that he is a

1:09:08 And so Walter Pankey was a doctor and a minister and working on a PhD. John Lewis and getting beaten up on the bridge when they're trying to get voting rights, that others that were very involved in sort of the science of religion, were the helpers. They were He's sort of the center of the Johns Hopkins psychedelic research. after the experiment was over and published

1:12:55 died in 1971 in a scuba diving accident. Oh, wow. Scuba equipment? School, and I said, could you put a notice in your alumni newsletter if anybody was in this and what I saw was they had a section of alumni handbooks, mystical experiences, many of them afterwards, that they said helped them consider that the one that they cross. You have to tell people of this story. And one of the students said, oh

1:16:31 Thorazine to calm him down. That's what they thought at the time is somebody's having a could produce a mystical experience, that was confirmed. The fact that it had long-term benefits, that was confirmed. and didn't have a mystical experience? It was like, well, it was synthetic psilocybin, so I think it was 25 milligrams, service, it didn't have a word about Jesus.

1:19:38 And so it was a sense that this experiment really validated for me my theory of change, that if we can help psychedelics. And a lot of people have this idea that it's never been done before, but it's America where we have ayahuasca, their main thing was kill these people, kill the leaders, kill the You kind of could. Or you could slip it to people when they were about to give a talk and they would make a fool of themselves, something like that.

1:23:34 So you take the core molecule. It does. Yeah. And this is a very valuable piece of information, And he's working with Congressman Tim Ryan from Ohio. And it's because a lot of the Navy SEALs, Dan Crenshaw is a former Navy SEAL, have spoken to him about their work going down to Mexico for Ibogaine and 5-MeO or their work with MDMA for PTSD. I found him to be very compassionate. I mean, when he heard about the healing potential and he's heard stories.

1:27:33 who have post-traumatic stress disorder. on the other political spectrum, Tim Ryan, is terrific. And it comes from this place of Bastiaans was the last person in the world that still had legal permission to relatives knew him before and after and said that it helped them a lot, although he still was can be helpful. Ibogaine can be helpful. Mushrooms can be helpful. And MDMA, all in different ways.

1:31:26 criminalized MDMA in 85, so many lives would have been saved, so much. But now we're trying to bring Navy SEALs that what they were getting from the VA wasn't enough and that they needed more and He's a military psychiatrist, retired now 32 years, but he still does work at Walter Reed. active duty soldiers to get this. But the amount of money that they spend to train a Navy SEAL is

1:34:54 But we want to treat people on both sides of all the different conflicts. And we see that Sir General Nick Carter, who's the Secretary of Defense equivalent in England, and police officers, we even have, you know, a police officer, you know, that we're training. Because for so long it's been drugs are bad. That was bad. I mean, so when we worked with the FDA, they said don't add supplements until we see what just the MDMA does.

1:37:35 You don't rush into your daily activities. Yeah, she had. And so I said, you know, this Pennsylvania is where she went to school, Dickinson College. And, you know, it wasn't legal there. So I just said, they got busted by the campus police. And it was a terrible thing. They're like, you're ruining your life and, you know, And they're dedicated and they're very well educated.

1:39:46 It was just a beautiful experience. difficult and bad right all right and so what bad is is more resisting it and so to give a good And she stuffed the feelings down. is primarily about resistance of not being open to it. And difficult can be productive, And she spends a lot of time just shaking, letting it out, letting out the stress. They don't know that if you open up to the difficult emotions, that that's the pathway through.

1:43:10 correct well people can resist it but also I've heard it doesn't work in terms But Jamie doesn't get high off edibles. that i know that I'm very close with Instantly, I can tell, you know, not high. I don't know. You know, story about edibles. that's interesting. And they go, yeah, well, we had to call the police one time. And I'm thinking, And she called the police.

1:47:11 Apparently for some people, I've talked to some athletes and they tell me that CBD with which is really hilarious. Yeah. Now, as long as we're talking about marijuana, Is it good? Bro, I got some of that. So since 2000, we've been trying to end this monopoly on marijuana that the federal government has in order to promote marijuana research to make it into a medicine.

1:49:43 or Lyle called. He said they don't have any record of his application. And he says, that's weird. You know, I know I sent it. So they realized they should reject. before Obama got inaugurated in order to reject the recommendation. They wait two years, actually, and they waited until six days before Obama got finally gave the list of who applied, but they didn't want to give any of the licenses still.

1:52:50 And they wrote the initiative language. And we had one group got THC, his PTSD symptoms were reduced. And he was really excited about that. And the group that got the least benefits had CBD only. Yeah. That seems gross. It's not much difference between Colorado and California. if any, has been made on the push to get the federal government to release marijuana from Schedule 1? Quite a lot. But I think my current prediction is 2025 is when we will have federally,

1:57:18 You know, society has not collapsed in Colorado or Seattle or Oregon or California or Massachusetts. Yes. It's about as low as it can get. who've experienced it and they say it's like a cousin of being high it's like being high's The misconception is that marijuana people are lazy losers. and it's foolishness because I feel is any perceived lack of discipline. So I work harder because of marijuana.

2:00:00 I ducked into a porta potty and smoked a joint. And that made a big, big difference. But I made it the whole way, and I kept running even after the finish line. Yeah. so I'm aware of the benefits of it, the pros. with PTSD for our application to the state of Michigan. So we're going to try to have multiple Before it became legal in 2016, we had some really bogus requirements.

2:03:36 But there's also a lot of nerd assassins is the way we describe them. So like say if someone was trying to teach me a particular move, But for what you already know, applying that in sparring marijuana is insanely helpful. And they get high. And then, here, play one of these. And you can see, as these guys go out Look at there. marijuana makes you lazy, I'm like, you don't know what you're talking about. You think you're

2:07:53 and, and that, that all work together towards things that you're trying to accomplish in your where I push myself and I expand my own personal boundaries That's possible too. But I think it's a structure issue. I don't think it's an issue in marijuana itself. So that's why I take umbrage with that. When someone says, Thalidomide, we know, was given to women for morning sickness and

2:10:02 The same way ecstasy can be a party drug or it can be a therapy drug. Can I ask you why you choose five? People have talked about how there's diminishing returns sometimes over time for MDMA. My wife and I like to try you do get a tolerance for it, but if you stop for a day or so or a couple of And now because we think we're about to succeed, we've started in 2014 the MAPS Public Benefit

2:13:50 In the 80s, when I started MAPS in 86, another group started a for-profit company to develop Ibogaine for opiate addiction. it. But there's so many different uses of MDMA that it's hard to do all of this with philanthropy. 12 to 17-year-olds. And we've actually already had to submit a pediatric plan. And you get There's a modification of capitalism called the benefit corporation. And there's thousands of these benefit corporations now.

2:17:06 countries when you look at your average outcomes. So we wanted to model not just something new, study, but we also want to globalize. And so we're now starting research in Europe. BCG is what they're called. And so when you have a pharmaceutical company, Senate in California that would decriminalize psychedelics, and it's got a provision to although we don't know, but we're already trying to educate them.

2:21:33 going to succeed. And what I told to the New York Times is that this BCG report during this period of data exclusivity just from the U.S. And you will be the only ones that are able to sell this MDMA? So it's going to... And the way we our negotiating with FDA and DEA is that the only We don't want to ever require that people try MDMA, but we think that they would be better therapists if they do.

2:25:54 Now two years ago, we wanted to get another protocol approved that would make it less afterwards. And so about two years ago, we applied to the FDA, and they put the protocol on clinical it's the same group at the FDA, not the same structure, but the same organization that 25 to be licensed. It can be in a student to get a license or someone with 1,000 hours of behavioral

2:28:51 would increase the costs of the therapy tremendously to have a doctor on site. And we went to challenge the FDA. Even psychiatrists a lot of times are trained to therapy. And we also said that we don't need a doctor on site, that the safety issues are, is out the window. A lot, a lot. And I will say that I have never done this MDMA. It's the purest in the world.

2:32:32 Wink. an extremely stable molecule. We are still using it in non-phase three studies because it's not Producers. And there are multiple companies in the U.S., Canada, Netherlands, England, Switzerland that we got bids from to manufacture our medical-grade MDMA. And they'd like to get in on it as quickly as possible and have an established foot through the door.

2:34:05 It's a bummer that here we are in 2021, were California and Arizona in 1996. That. Yeah. Well, to say the first medical marijuana states were California and But once they make it into a medicine and then we roll out these thousands of clinics, licensed legalization in 2035. But to just backtrack for a second, the MDMA that's manufactured now for us in England, it's a company that also makes LSD and psilocybin,

2:36:08 But they have to do it at large scale, automated. whereas I got one kilogram and a half, actually, from Dave Nichols in 85 for $4,000. Now we've got about Well, we did a study in veterans, firefighters, and police officers, and we tested 30 milligrams, they're constantly on edge. But in neither of those conditions are people really able to do a lot higher in the 125 milligram group than in the 75 milligram group.

2:39:53 almost everybody will go up to 120 and then get 60. And then the third MDMA session also is and it's a good way to start for a lot of people. what we found to be a lower effective dose than we thought, but what made it complicated lower effective dose than we thought. But the 25, 30, 40, and 50 milligrams made people uncomfortable. And so that meant that my dissertation was wrong. I had thought I'd solved the problem of how do you do a successful

2:43:34 So when we went to the FDA, we said, we can give you blinding with low-dose MDMA with therapy, of the group that said, yes, we can do therapy with inactive placebo. And he said there's two main ways then to, or he didn't say, but the FDA was, there's two main ways to reduce experimental called the CAPS, the Clinician Administered PTSD Scale. It was developed by the Boston VA.

2:46:01 Here's what the FDA said. The EMA, the European Medicines Agency, And so the active dose will also be in Europe, starting with 80 milligrams, And then we administer it throughout the study. And then two months after the last experimental no longer had PTSD, which is pretty amazing. People had PTSD on average of 14 years. We had What traits did they have in common?

2:49:35 or rather emotional intelligence, being able to navigate conversations with people. Like some places will have good weather. That's a big difference geographically, right? activity in the amygdala. Interesting. So that people are having brain changes. So of the eight-hour session, roughly half the time, in no specific order, people's eyes are closed. They're listening to music through headphones. They're having this own internal

2:52:35 So Acid Test, LSD, Ecstasy, and the Power to Heal. He unlocks the cage. Not in that same way. reduction of fear, self-acceptance, more complex things come up. So we do think that the MDMA what it does. And then we supervise the therapists Are they adhering to our method? you know, you came to a lot of things on your own. You know, you were able to do that, but it wasn't that the people with you produced those insights. You figured it out yourself.

2:57:35 more or less that still had PTSD, most of them had what are called clinically significant But at the 12-month follow-up for phase two, people kept getting better. like an SSRI. And there are many people that may not want to do this difficult work. any kind of real helpful counseling difficult to get permission to do research inside prisons because the question is informed consent.

3:01:16 issues. Now, my son Eden lives in Philadelphia and he lives right next to the Eastern State Penitentiary. And so this was the first major penitentiary but we have to go step by step. Chances are we'll start with parolees, provide support, That's what kept us going this whole time. and Robin Card Harris who are at Imperial College, lead, started to tie the lead investor in Compass. But this was, he said, he's not all about money,

3:05:40 this Arabic music. And so what we like to joke, but it's not so much of a joke, where the Hutus and the Tutsis did massive genocide. Like right about to wrap this up. Well, it's remarkable that there actually are compounds that promote empathy and that these are illegal. And they live alone. the other octopus. But when it's with the other octopus, it's around the perimeter. It doesn't really

3:09:29 You also learn more social skills. MDMA. It should be called empathy. Now, Gould also did work with Neural growth, yeah. So Mike Tyson, you had on, he talked about how psychedelics have changed him. And neural growth. And the Stanley Cup a couple times. But he's working also affiliated in a way with Mike Tyson. Would we work with people that have large amounts of trauma, but not large amounts of money like

3:13:18 And that's obviously very beneficial. What do you mean? So we want to have eventually thousands of members. Well, I'm going to encourage people No, we just started talking. Yeah. We abandoned that pretty quickly. Well, yes, thank you very much. Yes, and you're doing an amazing job with it.