Joe Rogan Experience #1678 — Michael Pollan Transcript

Transcript

0:00 the joe rogan experience train by day joe rogan podcast by night all day And for you to introduce the world of psychedelics experience of psychedelics, virtually none as a kid. I'd heard about this research. I was curious. And so in all my journalism, that's what I try to do. I start out as unknowing or ignorant as the reader and then gradually work my way into the world of whether it's food and agriculture or psychedelics.

2:43 And that's a turnoff to people, especially if you have this resistance, which many, many people do. The staring at the sun until you go blind was not true. Oh yeah, they're casualties. And, you know, especially if you get them off their SSRIs, you know, that increases the risk. There are people who did – I don't want to say fry their brains because that's pretty imprecise.

5:04 Divorce of parents can do it. If you're at that age and they eat edibles. Like is it something that triggers schizophrenia? There's a very specific window at that? finished at that age. Honestly, I don't know. I'm out of my depth there. humans have used plants for forever is to change consciousness. And that seemed like a very curious phenomenon. But every culture on earth, with one notable exception, has some plant or fungus that

7:51 Breathing can do it. consciousness? Because you would think from an evolutionary point of view, it might be a bad I think something just happened in California. I don't think it is. Mescaline-producing cacti. And basically, personal use, growing, and social sharing is legal. Right? I mean, you're sort of profiting off of the use. Opiate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, because in addition to giving you the psychedelic experience,

11:33 Even the Republicans are backing off on drug war. It's not part of the culture wars now, Purdue Pharma, you know, did a lot more damage than any illicit drug, you know, economy. So we're at this new moment where we have to figure out, okay, if we're not going to Tea, just a small amount of caffeine. So I wanted to learn, I wanted to talk a little bit about our relationship to drugs. What's a healthy relationship? I mean, drug abuse is real.

14:02 But it doesn't matter if they have a leg to stand on. No. If there's no moral correct argument for their stance, they're still doing it to make money. it's kind of usurping their power to regulate drugs. There's a whole lots of complications, in all these different things, and it's not simple. because I think indigenous use of psychedelics has a lot to teach us. I don't think we can just

17:09 You don't drink till the evening, right? You don't start off in the morning drinking. I mean, you know, it fed the anti-war movement. There are rules about which way the basket of peyote passes around the room. And everyone's attention is focused on that person. And peyoteism arose at this moment as a way to hold on to culture and heal trauma. And it worked. Yeah. I don't think there's a particularly long history of peyoteism.

20:01 The Huichol in Mexico. So even though that chain was broken with some North American tribes, because it only grows, by the way, in Texas. The Native American Indians? been in continuous use among American Indians. But I just think that's such an interesting model Fascinating. I didn't know that. All the more reason to suspect that- They would still make bread from it.

23:25 And there are episodes all through European history of these outbreaks. and every great Greek writer, politician participated in this, there was a potion that And there's going to be a new institute at Harvard working on some of these questions. because until they found the samples You know, look, I think psychedelics have had a very profound effect on cultural evolution in many, many ways.

26:23 started. It completely makes sense to me. And in fact, wasn't there, there's been some work at the, especially we're talking about not know what's a metaphor and what's literal. So I'm very interested in the role that psychedelics have played. okay all right but yeah he's for the fact he's spoken out about that he just said it's not what Well, I think the last time you were here, we talked about Terence McKenna's stoned ape theory, which is the most fascinating.

28:37 when he discusses it because Yes, yes, and good and bad, right? But he's saying it's part of genetic evolution and that it actually changed the genome, as I understand it, and that people's – and accounts for the growth of the size of the human brain. He's trying to figure out and connect the dots. will flip over their manure and look for these cow patties

31:30 the people who are on psilocybin are far more likely to be able to detect that than people that are on the match. It focuses you on tasks at hand, specifically in lower doses. The other thing about psilocybin is that it enhances community. the idea was the creativity might have also enhanced their hunting, Well, it's over the course of two million years that the human brain size doubled, which is crazy.

33:17 So Richard Wrangham, a Harvard primatologist, and his argument is that is when we learn to cook, they grow much faster on the cooked food. They had to. Except things that are connected to psychedelics. And this is where it gets really mushrooms, because there were so many psychedelic mushrooms mushrooms and these college kids were running out onto the field

35:18 but he said that they would all go out to the fields And I go through a lot of cattle land. like morel mushrooms are really, really delicious. It was always on firelands. And the reason, the theory is that these fungi, first of all, most of them live underground, right? Oh, that's what it is. We ate a lot of them. year in California, so there'll be a lot of morels. It's the one good thing you can say.

37:56 some people don't put any faith in the idea that it was involved in Yeah, it was such a bad experience. I remember when I was interviewing him for the last book, he talked about it because I've always been curious about it. Or the substrate. Through some sort of plant toxin or some, Just sort of like. and these... Present-day Nigeria would administer poisonous calabar bean,

41:12 I don't think this is the same. These are all... I don't know did it as rites of passage, Yeah. five days without food. They enter an altered state of consciousness and that becomes part of the right. Because of the drug war. They were all using heroin, or a lot of them were, and 20% were addicted. deaths of despair. And whereas people in Well, I've exchanged email with him.

45:44 but yet It makes him a kinder person. You should talk to him because he's a fascinating guy to talk to because he's so open. in the cannabis business who say psilocybin is the next cannabis, and they imagine it being, them on their own terms. And that process, you know, I think it's beginning. And I think It's like, do you know what you're selling these people?

48:42 I would love like psychedelic centers. we talk a lot about ego dissolution on psychedelics, but there's also ego inflation. psilocybin or four. So it's not far away at all. And ketamine is currently in use pretty widely right now for therapy. that's a really interesting one to watch. In the same way the Native American church and two And there is a group of psychedelic lawyers who are looking for the right cases to bring through the system.

51:58 They're based in Boulder, as you would guess. soldiers, police officers, things along those lines. Women have been abused. People have been year in that part of the world so I will check it out I've had Alex on a couple times and he's a the best interpretation of like pull up some of it, that's what it looks like he just so his place is called the i think the place in new york city was

55:49 I mean, I think people are donating. was that guy, like this is, okay, They might still be making it. Right. Yeah, sure. It's probably taking a long-ass time. Well, you know, this is kind of one of the benefits of psychedelics coming out of the closet after all these years, right? Is it on Airbnb? you'd see a reflection of the dining room table in six dimensions. sounds perfect I love all the cactus around it

58:49 Yeah, well he does it, they do it a lot of times Ari's living in New York City now, It's going to affect culture. So I think that's a really interesting theme. And my gut says, yes, I mean, that the nature of the psychedelic experience could make these studies, they tend to be inclined in that direction already. You really have to get like of your ways. It'd be much gentler than the chemical castration they used to talk about.

1:01:54 the ruthlessly introspective nature of some of the journeys that you go on where you really are The peyote allows us to see ourselves and see what's wrong Incredibly desperate time for their culture, It's in very short supply. okay so mess so there's another way if you're interested and I'll talk about Conservation Initiative, IPCI, and they really deserve our support. And they're trying to buy

1:05:21 And there are other ways to get mescaline. It just doesn't do anything. I know what the San Pedro looks like. And check out if there's flowering peyote too. 15 years. I've got a bigger one that's not too small. And it has the, instead of spines, it has this kind of furry flower or furry, I don't know what you call that thing. illegal to grow illegal illegal to grow really yeah so you're breaking the law you're manufacturing a

1:07:57 They've all interbred. It's much more vertical. they do once they boil it uh after you boil it then you it kind of turns to mush, so you have to filter it. And then you have this tea. And it's a And I was so surprised to hear how many people said mescaline because it's not around. Nobody's doing research with it. It's like, what happened to mescaline?

1:10:17 And what was the experience like? very contemplative. You're very lucid. It's fairly gentle. I didn't have any gastrointestinal upset showed up. Do you think that was just, uh, like you had this idea of who used it and that was you were experiencing the trips of millions of people over thousands of years. like when they would say things to you, They would say it in this crazy way

1:14:06 And it would be even more insane. because I never heard anybody say that they said look at this or I love you six million Because it's so mind blowing. let's just let it happen. the most important lesson I learned from both my experience and all the teachers that I worked with is surrender. the last time i did it there was uh like like a fractal of gestures there was like an infinite

1:16:51 exactly you got over it well they were letting me know whatever that they is yeah what is that i very calmly said, well, that's an interesting hypothesis. And he's right. That's all it is, Yeah. I don't totally understand. He named his kids Merlin and Cosmo. Yeah, I know. Right. yeah i think he could use one yeah i think so i have a list of people who could use one

1:21:00 or haven't had the opportunity to do research on psychedelics. And now they want to. are going to work on it and bring their tools and their analytical chops. with these psychedelic compounds, and also now I think more so than ever based on a real Oh, without question. Look, we have a mental health crisis in this country, right? The numbers how broken our field is, that we don't have good tools, that we're not healing people. We're helping with symptoms at best,

1:24:43 questions to work out here, but your point about operating manuals is really right because I think the problem in And that's a really interesting project. Really? Three months without caffeine. the psychedelic researcher, Really? I could not stay on track. Everything, the periphery just kept chapter, looking back in history for when caffeine enters the West. And it doesn't happen until the

1:28:17 And this was true in America up until the 1800s, up until Prohibition. But anyway, That's right. all the literature back then, all the writing. German, of course. So this gave this incredible public health boost to You didn't have to know what time it was. So it had a profound effect on capitalism, the rise of capitalism. And during World War II, they lost all their best loom operators to the war effort.

1:32:29 And the women said, well give us a coffee break. And think about it. they'll be happier employees. They'll probably be more productive. That was really good. And I'm looking at these people and they look like junkies you see in Amsterdam. Right. And they have a little pocket park out on the street. And I got a cup, got a special, this and making this horrible racket. And it really got under my skin. I was getting kind of

1:37:01 This sounds like meth behavior. I'm just going to be another caffeine addict. And so I resisted that. And this would really help me get over the deadline. So I started making exceptions. It's probably a third of what you get in a cup of coffee. It varies amazingly. Like if the tips discouraging to insects. And they fuck with their minds, basically. I mean, if you think about it,

1:40:35 It's the last thing. have some every day. And I had this, we used to live in rural Connecticut, and I had this fenced-in vegetable garden. It's got a chemical that's very close to a sex hormone and that it has this psychoactive effect on cats. has also been an evolutionary strategy And it's quite an astonishing fact of evolution ruin the taste for the pest. There's a lot of communication that goes on among plants. It goes

1:44:51 And it can borrow from the bank of an evergreen tree. That whole time, actually longer, because they've been around longer than we have, but there are other ways to be intelligent. If you define intelligence as the ability to solve the problems that confront you in And not just signals in terms of, like you were saying, they send them through the air.

1:46:40 So it's not a real, this is where it gets really crazy. I know. video of two beans competing for a steak and, um, and it was in time-lapse and you see them Venus fly traps and stuff like that, but suddenly you, you realize, oh, they're thinking and they're not thinking the way we think, but they do think, And they permanently learned not to respond to that.

1:49:29 And plants deserve our respect. like it's a nourishing feeling. which is that there are certain kinds of plants that produce caffeine in their nectar. did this study. And she found that bees will prefer plants that give them caffeine. Jamie, we talked about this before, and I never did anything about it. Nepal. And this psychedelic honey, as they're gathering this stuff up,

1:53:03 on the black market. What does it say? It's an alkaloid. How dare you? So it's made by bees that feed on rhododendron flowers, which give it psychoactive effects. wild. Yeah, well You've got to really trust a rope maker. it's ridiculously high trees to get it. So, and it became a big source of calories Well, historically, whenever there's been a commodity, people have always abused other people in order to either harness that commodity, achieve it.

1:56:46 And you can get them all in one source and that's why we're so fat. You can get mad honey from the Pacific Northwest. that yes right that's the same way we figured out that they like caffeine. They may like this stuff. I think he is. He's being stung like They're probably trying to mitigate the amount of stings. Look at the dude up And I bet a lot of people fall.

1:59:29 See, and these guys are eating it. Like really strange looking. No. What did they do? Marijuana looks like a guy telling you a stoned idea. Anyway, that's a really weird, I don't see the LSD one, but that's very strange. Yeah. but I didn't know that. No, it's not a great quantity of caffeine. But yeah, other animals are not really big on caffeine. the dose makes the poison

2:01:54 You know, Really? And a lot of the work of culture is figuring out which and how. but consciousness implies a self-awareness a handful of others. I wrote this piece about them years ago. And this is when you first started see if they got an electrical response. It was all bullshit. I mean, that book has been completely discredited. And that slowed down research into

2:04:32 Yeah. But maybe like the dropping ferns, maybe they get accustomed to it. It would be. incredibly strong, they give minerals to the plant. And so they have this swap. And when you It's a more cooperative relationship. You know, we learned the original take on Darwin was nature, red tooth and claw, beings we do not do well alone and and so I think that the role of cooperation in nature is is

2:08:09 And my sense is the ones in the garden do a lot better. So it's like, again, like a polar bear in a zoo. It reminds me of that. opiates addicted them. And this was like proof that, you know, the chemicals have these hooks. they'd have a safe amount, basically. And this was a really strong evidence that wasted all away with drugs. It's usually there's some sort of depression

2:11:30 do get pleasure from these drugs. And that's a healthy thing, I think, the shame of being addicted or the guilt of being addicted. Yeah, it's an interesting—the Rat Park study is so interesting because imagine if that guy had not put those two pieces together. We would still have this narrative that cocaine and heroin are so addictive because of science that we've proven that people that get it, they just take it until their life

2:13:32 and the black market and sharing needles and everything. And then they'll go to work on I mean, right? We do. Fucking losers hooked on drugs. yeah. It's like everybody has that. We do. in a way that just is not helpful. We'll have more people contributing and more competition. No, I think. mean, everyone wants to go overseas to deal with these these criminals, you know, and these foreign

2:16:26 There will still be overdoses. You know, look, we legalize tobacco and alcohol, and I think about the use of cigarettes. But, you know, that's a, I'd say cigarettes are really, or tobacco is a And it's a powerful drug when used that way. And it is, so it's like a snuff. a powerful purgative. Like I just felt like emptied out and refreshed when it was over.

2:19:45 That's a good question. I don't know when they started smoking the peace pipe and the use of And, in fact, the worst thing in this experience was a little bit of it and setting, you know, it's not just about psychedelics. It's about all drugs and that And it is. But I know a lot of writers that have had a real problem quitting. a majority of tobacco users, that it isn't just about the drug.

2:22:33 call a dip dip a friend of mine gave me one of these little packets you put a No, I knew there was a documentary about a guy who was traveling around to all these different schools of his life and had a big piece of his jaw removed what did uh what did he was he smoking yeah he was a big um uh well the classic him in the pipe pipe yeah yeah there's so many of

2:24:20 Was there anything in studying this book and preparing to do this book, One of the most surprising facts is that the largest source of antioxidants in the American diet comes from coffee and tea. Because the only thing that produces antioxidants, which we need for our health, which we need to prevent cancer, plants produce antioxidants. you should, you know, bottoms up on your coffee. That's pretty crazy. Yeah, it is. I mean,

2:26:16 And there are antioxidants you get from the leaves of plants. I have a little bit of fish And I support that kind of agriculture. But in general, the average meat you find comes at the end of a food chain I just are about the same at around 18 to 20%. The evidence is that they are. I don't know, pigeon peas or something something like that that are being used to make these

2:30:04 Yes, yes, exactly. birds. And I saw my plants as more alive than I'd ever seen them before. And they were like We don't have a relationship to nature. There was no negative energies going back and forth. But also dragons. So it's like how much of it is in your mind. And so we were wearing eye shades. And I was with a group of women. I was the only man there.

2:33:40 you know, reaches out to the sun. And I kept saying to myself, plants can't be caged. And it's, you know, sometimes psychedelics of what you're experiencing. Oh, for sure. I've had a very interesting experience as a writer writing about trips. I mean, And everybody says these experiences are ineffable, you know, beyond language. But I found a way to do it,

2:36:31 That's a great way to describe it. having to worry about fact checkers or, you know, plausibility. And I was just, I had these memories. Or in The Omnivore's Dilemma and all your other books, it's like you're a guy who investigates topics and thoroughly researches And I'm like, I don't think so. Well, what year was it when you started thinking about writing?

2:39:30 Well, one was pleasant. What college? to take a chance. Wow. I didn't do it at the age-appropriate time. you know, when you've developed all these habits, for is melting those habits and creating a space where new narratives can form. You know, we're the victim of these narratives that our Dutch neuroscientist. And his image of what psychedelics do is like, imagine a hillside.

2:43:50 to go down the hill in a new way. Audio as well, and Kindle. Bye, everybody. Thank you.