Joe Rogan Experience #1710 — Cullen Hoback Transcript

Transcript

0:00 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! I was mentioning, you know, I tweeted back in April, And it was actually Is that what they call themselves? I mean, I have so much of this Clinton body count, 17. It's really excellent. Thank you. want to say. You did a fantastic job. It's really excellent. worst case scenario they wind up attacking capital I Without you know uncharitable terms

3:20 who is a big QTuber, big sort of celebrity, Question whether or not, you know. Yeah, I would agree with you a hundred percent. on social media created by Russia. So that means that you can have actors in South Africa or in Russia posting on these sites protected under the same premise as what Americans are accustomed to. an immune system response like what what we're reacting to and what we're recognizing from all

8:07 according to what they deem to be correct or incorrect, which obviously is subject to biases. we know to be true, or here's information that we know to be a lie. We're going to stop that those who talk about that kind of content. And oftentimes, even if their goal was just to So people even, people that were analyzing the movement from a critical standpoint,

11:04 with this project, it wouldn't have seen the light of day. Really? Like if you tried to put it on YouTube, I think that if I did not have HBO in my sales with this project, it wouldn't have seen the light of day. So, yeah, I wouldn't feel confident at all that, you know, what was it on ABC? I forget. Yeah, not sure network television and I said, well, what about Amazon?

12:59 flat earth stuff, and they were getting blowback. censorship too much. However, in a lot of ways, it does feel like the government has passed the We're going to put that in the hands of these companies. And I actually think if we had not let privacy be eroded online, from the quote unquote other side, right? And so now there's this conversation about what should

16:52 these traits. And I haven't designed the algorithms, but I've also talked to people And then the Snowden revelations came out and then it was like, What's the big deal if they're mining my personal data to serve me with ads? Of course, governments will abuse that. Yeah. And probably are right now. I'm sure they're going to be able to hack into that. Yeah. I mean, I think with stuff like

20:46 I mean, what would you do about the algorithm problem? I mean, I have a very boring YouTube page. down any rabbit holes or cause I don't use it for that. I use YouTube like, Oh, I got 10 minutes to in that documentary are misfits. Like a lot of the people are a little goofy. They're, It's one of the reasons why people get so invested in political candidates and political campaigns.

24:18 In Trump, we had this guy that was going to clean up the swamp. He was going to find those people that were eating babies and, you know, and... you hit a lot of the big points there, you know, and that's why QAnon is sort of part religion, always take it when I could, um, and just, you know, give them, give them, uh, a more and they saw you as an objective sort of voice of reason.

27:05 still alive. Would you like to talk about that on your QTube station? And they're going, well, Into who was behind it was general Hayden I tried to get a hold of General Flynn and to do an interview with him. Some of these characters who were in his orbit, family members who were kind of speaking on his behalf. harmful. So you ask most QAnons and Flynn would be very high on their list of suspects for who might be behind it.

30:56 almost like a religious offshoot. In Japan, there's sort of two different two different big They managed to do that through I would imagine that it's just very different who the fuck the prime minister of Canada is. I mean, we really don't know anything about all the other people. He was crazy. I mean, he's also my sort of prime suspect I mean, if he doesn't have access to, like, some data points,

33:37 How is he so sure? So this is late December, 2017. Q's been actively posting for about two months at this point. talking about QDROP, sort of famed conspiracy theorist, that Q was posting on. what there were many places why didn't Q create its own board why didn't Q why that board and was And you can never really tell when you're on that board if people are being ironic or post-ironic.

36:49 but you can actually see that Q was, But I do think that it's interesting that... or pseudo anonymously kind of identifying yourself. So if I have the password, Q's password, sort of jumping in, trying to write in this style. Anybody could have done it. There's also no algorithms on the chans. Well, it's more of a culture. And I think that those who are heavy Chan users would, would, um, they would, they would, the, the term is fame fagging. That's

40:28 So if you had a screen name... And it was not until Drop, I believe, is it 20, 30? And so it's almost like an improv game where people are jumping in like, oh, what's the story that we're developing? there. So it's possible that that password could have been shared between multiple people. You And they could also reveal that the two of you were in on this together

43:05 before, there's tons of terms like that and a culture that exists on 4chan and 8chan that is That is crazy, right? Over the course of that time, like, Ron's story evolves. because I get a lot of people asking me, okay, well, who was the original Q? What you were and believes that Q has become fake. Yeah, like way more exclamation marks, you know. cullen you know i identify more with villains um he said something to the effect of, I learned a long time ago that

47:14 Yeah, there's that moment. But he's not Q. has some tells And this is what happens on poll. looping us in. So to be Q, you didn't need to be a secret government insider. You just needed to know what the Anons were already thinking. You needed to understand that culture and you needed to spend a lot of time on the boards. You needed to kind of be, you know, well, I was going to say a king of those boards, but just an edgelord to pull it off. And Hedgelord, that's hilarious. That's what's interesting, right? It's like, you could

50:13 Like what's up with all these frogs with Hitler armbands? or do you think he would at least have layers and layers between that? But, uh, you know, Q pretending to be a government insider, uh, have with Q level clearance. Oh, sure, yeah. And you see that moment in the series, right? But, yeah, I mean, she also didn't want to engage with that material.

52:45 this, is, you know, an edgelord of that space. It's the exact kind of person who would run that And, yeah, this had happened kind of in the year running up to Q and tailed off at the beginning of 2018, this other kind Were you into it? But this 8chan thing, what's fascinating to me is how many members does 8chan have or how many users does 8chan have?

55:17 Just after Epstein's death? Poway was another, it was a synagogue shooting. the point that there was a lot of public outcry, largely led by Fred Brennan, their opposition, well, algorithms are driving people, you know, in a certain direction. And we can have a conversation And, like, in reality, something like Q wouldn't have been successful if it wasn't for big tech.

58:19 You know, like I made a film about LARPers in 2008. lot of close I mean, Q did really kind of start as a sort of interactive game He was advising them on on what to do in relationship to the election. But this is a hundred percent true. I shut that guy off as soon as I hear him talking If they watch your documentary wouldn't they go like So where is he has a following now?

1:01:25 that it was a marketing campaign. You know, and so it is – I consider it a possibility, especially since 8chan was directing a high amount of traffic to Donald Trump's website in the first election cycle, that a relationship had formed somewhere along the way. like, I must have just been the option of last resort. But here's the question. Why would they

1:03:07 So why him then? And, but it is, There he is, yeah. the more he tried to make it seem like he wasn't Q, It's on HBO Max. Some of the time I was actually on the treadmill. The thing that I was getting at Correct, yeah. Yeah. He was sort of the architect, mastermind behind the 2016 campaign. Now he's a podcaster. Great room, really. i you know i've got my my absurd amount of research you know i've got infinity board

1:07:58 to co-opt it for like the gold standard for trolls he could really tell that the heat was on him. My eye, I have Sauron. Can I stop you for a second? Two days later, Q writes, going on the offense. and he saw that scene, You've already convinced me of Bannon, Like, how is he getting you this data? Well, so the data set that he presented, so it wouldn't be traced back to him?

1:11:12 Right. let me show you, Ron was actually messaging me all the way back in early January of 2018 that that there was a forensic trail that wasn't pointing in their direction. And that's why it I mean, dude, I spent the last few months just trying to like when I started hearing about it but I assume by the time stuff reaches me it's of 2017 when these characters tracy beans paul ferber and colman rogers and i believe it was

1:16:00 fascinating and you can see it even in Q's mentality towards Tracy. And there was one – and Q didn't do this very often, very, very rarely. Oh, this is great because Q is just shit talking Tracy Beans off of QAnon. She's It's right next to anonymous. actually see so you have this one here r equals 18 why is that interesting why is except for the moderators.

1:19:29 help me change the world, not us, but her. Like going on those outlets This is Q writing. Right, yeah. Yeah. Like when Q was like writing to the border, who were like the predominant ones, you know, Like Craig was the evangelical approach. blue avians, that's his, you know... of call and response, like, what does the audience want, to some extent? Because it was an evolving

1:23:13 Yeah, people would ask a question and then Q would be like, well, no, 9-11, not an inside job. you're convinced Did he have control of the Q account? like, yeah. Q must, Okay. I don't know anyone like that guy. Yeah, like he's had a hard life. Like, it's like. this oddball character. Are you allowed? Yeah. remember it's edited. So it's, it's, uh, you know, you're cutting out all of the stuff. It's not that,

1:28:46 How did it drain him financially? who had created 8N, made it super wealthy and it's all just a character he's playing, you know, because they have They are, yeah. And if you want to have your business operations somewhere, like, it's difficult to do research. And he wanted to do it on an ice wall, There's only one video on it right now, and that's it.

1:32:17 And he's in the Philippines still? out of it, but it was a family reason. Okay. Yeah. Um, so the, the, the January 6th thing, You know, that wasn't the first time. So being in a situation where he maybe had less power, and he would even tell you that he's, you know, he can be volatile. Why did they agree to do that? Q when I went there. I just went to talk to them also in part because if anybody knew who was behind Q, it would be those

1:35:12 I was like, what the fucker? Me? Why didn't you just buy a new pair of glasses? Was he upset about it? You know, he's a huge theater nerd. We've discovered when we were going to Reno But then the question is, like, And fountain pens, yeah. would be Ron's definition of it. you can hear it just not this is all for show, right? You know, that, like you've been made a cuckoldove.

1:38:34 Here we go. Well, no, like you've been made a cuckold of. You're like a little peaceful cuck. And this is why he wears it. I'm trying to remember it. Yeah. It's not like a guy who has done that a lot. Well, he exaggerates everything. Like, I play basketball with my kids sometimes. of 8kun right around the same, on the same time, at the same time, he's like, I'm going to be a

1:41:53 It's very weird. And it's got millions of views. Just a little bit. That being said, I am no longer affiliated with 8kun and have no interest discussing 8kun or Q-related material. I do believe strongly and then I mean, it's very entertaining. Because he's just messing with people. It's so performative. I have no idea if he even said the same things.

1:45:23 I think he did it on purpose. the most illustrative of Ron's worldview. is that's so you know and i think that that really helps explain how ron sees the world you know he's um uh and partially treating it like it's a game but uh if he has any stuff i'm not i never got interested right so i never i never got invested in it i never i mean He started trumping up this idea that there was this whistleblower, this Dominion whistleblower.

1:48:43 And people immediately start going, and it was laden with malware. This is an iCalendar, I think, like someone's iPhone. He released some passwords that got traced back to her. And then she ended up releasing it. Like, Based on all of the comments after the video got released But again, he is someone who... It's releasing a lot of ideological or conceptual viruses into people's minds and getting them to believe that like all these arrests were going to happen that never happened.

1:51:50 No, I mean, it's a messaging platform. they raised a bunch of money in some crypto ICO. Because there's no algorithm. then I was surprised to hear, oh wait, people were, they create, it had been sort of retooled to be, you know, to follow. I'm not the foremost expert on Telegram, and the fact that it's encrypted and that the company itself isn't mining your data

1:55:10 Because users are valuable. Yeah. But, you know, Telegram just has better technology too. So I think Ron and Andrew Torba, I believe, is the CEO of that company. Yeah, there's a bunch of these. Explain Section 230. this prodigy was being sued for stuff on their platform companies are going to drive towards is using AI moderation that only they can afford.

1:59:31 You know, it's not particularly good at determining and there was an entity that could determine what should be allowed. have an arguable point you know if you wanted to say this is what we want to And it seemed like maybe, well, is this where the internet is headed? Yeah. Yeah. Well, also, there's no guarantees you were going to have an ending like January 6th.

2:02:52 that the ideation for that had started in november um it gave it a whole new meaning of course when in the lead-up to the sixth that I needed to go. I was just like, oh, fuck. following jim that day you know i was very anxious going into it. I didn't I mean, all of these kind of instigators around Trump, Steve Bannon, Roger Stone, General Flynn, you know, they were all stoking the flames to the max, if you looked at the chatter on the chans, if you looked at the chatter on social media in general, around, you know, that this, you know, Trump asked for a wild protest.

2:06:27 speech that day, you know, he's he's them fighting words. You know, we're going to go to the we're It says, Peter Navarro released a 36-page report alleging election fraud Peter Navarro is there hasn't been any you know and anything of all the And Ron stoked the flames of that, of course. And there was so much anger towards Pence. Yeah. I mean, at this point. So now Ron was just... How hot is that? Yeah. Right? Yeah.

2:09:43 Well, he does treat the whole world like it's a game and if you're what are the objectives of So Q, right at that hijacking point, early in January, He's a character. I mean, you couldn't ask for better characters. I mean, if you had developed this as a drama, if this was fiction. Right, right. Yeah, I mean, very fascinating character studies, to be sure.

2:12:23 would really pull the floor out of the whole thing, wouldn't it? So he was incentivized to keep the narrative alive. and it was become this it was because they could post illegal content there, They can still post they can still It's not until Gamergate happens when Chris Poole, So suddenly Fred has a huge influx of users. What caused that? The big riff though that happens between them is Fred just doesn't really want to work on HN anymore.

2:18:26 And he knew he needed to get out of that situation immediately. Maybe I don't want to be the... Jim was hoping that Fred was going to have a similar relationship to him that he would take the sort of most suitable peacemaker in that situation um he's as fred would say sort of the Correct. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, he had gained a new following. Well, the other thing that Fred really likes, and, you know, I was saying,

2:21:34 But he's living with his family now on the East Coast. Oh, he's in trouble in the Philippines. but you're going to go after somebody for something they said on twitter right and he's because it's like, it's under the wire, Right. have in protecting free speech or censoring questionable behavior. and what should be done. you know, and when they reveal the magic trick,

2:25:34 And this has always been the challenge But I think that all rights come with a cost. Because, um, one, on one hand, um, my perspective is, um, that wouldn't work on me. Would it work on me when I was 20? Well, that's what the series is doing in relation to Q, right? I mean, HBO is like, they can do whatever the fuck they want. a really weird, slippery thing.

2:29:50 Because when you understand what drew people into this, you know, it softens your view of them. Not just amount of time, but a Herculean effort, but you really managed to nail it. Yeah. I'd say before we worry about deciding what should or should not be said online, let's restore privacy rights. necessarily, they have products. And so you're essentially a customer, but you're also what they're selling.

2:34:21 side because we only believe in our one truth. And then we become more interested in silencing whatever that one truth is. We become more angry. crazy shit on the internet. You know, Q wouldn't have been possible without the algorithms. We talked about like what my algorithms show. Right, but it's human nature is the problem, right? This is the flagship Supreme Court case that actually Barr, who is Jim Watkins' attorney

2:38:01 You know, what limitations might we put in place so that we at least know what the rules are? You know, it's a black box of amplification. And it gives incredible power to those who run that black box. Do you think it's at all possible path for this sort of There's like this gigantic three-card money game going on with your data. You know, and the more hostile, the more, you know, the more it satisfies the audience,

2:40:49 And he was trained over time to say things, you know, Our team lost and you guys are still just dribbling around shooting hoops and you know the score is over right um what does he do but but I don't know anything about it. I haven't really used it. on YouTube. or 4chan and then suddenly, you know, in his mind, was trying to make itself real. Was this ultimately satisfying for you? Like what would like obviously your investment paid off?

2:44:47 Reaching a conclusion is satisfying. there's lots of historical examples of how this doesn't work um and why it ends up having the Of course. I mean, either one individually, there's never been anything like them. are we getting out of the quote-unquote doghouse here, And so it wouldn't be nation versus nation. It may be a runaway train. I really really appreciate it

2:48:45 Bye, everybody. Bye, everybody.