Joe Rogan Experience #1714 — Josh Dubin & Robert Jones Transcript

Transcript

0:00 The Joe Rogan Experience. And Robert, very nice to meet you. Let's just get into it. exculpatory evidence or evidence that would tend to show someone's innocence. So it was an hour-long And I said, how long was he in for? He said, almost 24 years, 23 years, seven months for a vicious rape and murder that he didn't commit. And they're usually shell shocked in a way that is not conducive to public speaking.

4:05 few cocktails and he he told me his whole story about the crime about this really extraordinary. And then, um, I went on to help represent him in his, his civil rights case. Is it, have you like gradually become accustomed to this idea that they're not going to drag you back in? So, yeah, it has been a transition from the first day I got out Respect is huge, and just having that empathy

8:07 the the full stand canes yeah like a walker yeah like a walker right and it's like she's crossing I went and helped her, made sure that she crossed the street safely. So I knew that I was in for a hell of a transition. Right. uh me for some crimes uh and i was like i mean knowing i commit no crimes right so like because I know I didn't do shit, right?

12:01 So I'm thinking that when people commit crime they get arrested they go You don't find these things out until eventually you're arrested. then they said they didn't have eyewitness so in the Orleans Parish Jail, right, I stayed in the Orleans Parish Jail four years, four years before I was actually convicted. And they knew about this evidence. How the fuck do those people not wind up going to jail?

15:16 I went into this thinking, and when I say this, I mean this work. they had reason to believe, they knew that someone else committed this crime. And they had an that shows that that person's innocent and you withhold that evidence and still So, you know, why don't you tell Joe about how you even became a suspect Anonymous. Someone actually did it, right?

19:30 There was a British tourist and a lot of news covering nationally. I get arrested. Eventually I dropped out of school. I just had a lot of common sense and a lot of courage. Didn't understand that word, period, right? like they're going to eventually me being in the parish, I'm like, and God was more convincing. Because what happened was I hired a guy, but my family was poor.

23:55 Who could go through all this information and with a lot of work. what was his initial reaction and what was his plan? Predicated on if I get this information, I need to get this report. But a lot of things never happened. who was already there and you know I think a lot, and I strategize a lot. they get out of touch with a lot of their family members

27:38 And I kind of like used those guys as a mirror, like I'm not going to be like that, right? And I sort of like felt, and I can laugh about it now, not to justify his means because that's all he knew because of the environment he grew up in. But what happened, interestingly what happened was, Yeah, my father was killed, but my father was a boxer, right?

30:35 It was a couple of years I stayed But so me and this guy who I'm speaking of had this kind of relationship as it relates to it the mid-gloves because you're going to make him a defensive. want to talk about it you know like man, man, just give me my space. just like you get knocked out in the ring. And blame other people for what they ain't doing. GED school and at the same time I was studying the law, right? Because I knew, I said, man, my brother was gone.

33:53 So I got to master this shit. I got to get resources. but I didn't want to be that same 19-year-old kid that stood before the courtroom money in the commissary as well but a lot 29 cents during the time. government I wrote everybody and I started talking over the president of the United States. I wrote the federal government. I wrote everybody. I was getting guys like hearings.

37:24 was creating programs for guys. What do you mean? Because you got some guards that just got animosity towards you. I can't win shit for myself. like years before I got out. and attorney You're put in prison for something you didn't do. And I know myself and So I said, well, how did you navigate that? He said, I was gonna get those three things. think this is so important that people understand the contours of the suffering and, and the

42:38 You know, and that became, that because of who I am as a person, I'm going to leave out just like I came in. I'm gonna give you a cesspool. I can't hit below the belt what years later came to I had to use weapons. And me having that mindset, I protected myself you know well you don't have to tell all the gritty details yeah yeah yeah uh or you can eat last. And I'm like,

47:03 because I was a newcomer that was coming into it and I took it but he ain't nothing. But How difficult was it to stay on track? Yeah. People die in that institution every day. How many people are in Angola locked up? and the reason why I think that this is so important is because you have to transport yourself and allow yourself to go. And he went to the back of the line.

51:26 And to that's bull crap. And if you think I'm just talking or I'm just verbally just saying these things, the ones who was doing what they was doing. I always maintained that kind of position, that's being a representative for a lot We're not going to eat because I'm not going to take that and feed all these men. No, in the parish jail what happened was,

55:07 But I'm not going to accept that, to feed them guys. And guys respected me for that because I was able to play fair across the board on those different levels there. And unbelievable. if there's any testing that's available to preserve the DNA testing so I can test it and prove my innocence and I got granted evidentiary hearing for a motion I did And this was a whole chain of other things.

59:20 And they come up with excuses like, well, then we're going to have a rash of people that want their evidence preserved and retested. There'll be a run on the courts. I mean, this seems to me to be a fundamental human right. It really does all matter. But prior to that, he was, you know, a one-legged man in a shit-kicking contest to say But eventually, it became numb to, like, this shit.

1:02:47 I'm like, God damn, I got the facts, but especially like when you're innocent. You go over there and you care for them There's no reason for him to lie, right? because I think there's a lot of people And people need to understand that for your case, your situation, it's not unusual. Right. The first phase of jury selection is called death qualification. It's a pretty shitty name for it.

1:07:31 people on the jury that are so against the death penalty that they'll never And you see this wrestling, 30 or so years. So that would be, you know, one person, one person a year, that everybody should really stop And he said it was like a bunch of fucking savages, you know, running after food and grabbing it and running away. So they took all these crimes and said it was a part of a spree.

1:12:53 From each of the victims. me. That was that. How did they connect and he allowed me to use the car, right, I never used a car, none of that. Right. a driver's license, you would think a driver's license, Right. Even though they knew. and I know I was going to get a life sentence for the rape, I know I was about to give sentence to life for the rape

1:17:05 It happened. so if you and I went and robbed a bank One guy got sentenced to death. That I didn't have anything to do with the murder. that was very favorable to me, Oh, well, maybe he is making this up because he feels guilty that he implicated his friend who Is that human nature? up astrology but but i um i'm stubborn but i think as i see this time and time again and watching juries

1:22:10 It becomes a game and I don't mean a game like it's a joke Whenever I hear a golf ball. They find rationalizations, and it's because there's a game going on. What do they do if no one speeds? pullovers they have to pull a certain amount of people And you just have like And some people can be a part of a system, a part of a program, you become technically a sociopath.

1:25:31 There's a hundred people in this group and you watch some guy beating the shit out of somebody There's so many people. But it's no different with a corporation than it is with prosecutors and detectives. of them realize sort of, I don't know if it's so much the error of their ways, but I know, of obligation. Because in some instances, he was forced to sentence people because of sentencing

1:29:30 remarkably relevant. And if we could somehow get across to people in law enforcement, prosecutors, To me, it's both a happy ending and it's terribly depressing Yeah, it's a very real thing. and this was very important, the detective that, the detective, Detective Stewart, and I can say that he's an honorable person, and I have a lot of respect for him because what what ended up happening is

1:32:31 the prosecutor that, because he was the one that made the arrest on me, and he felt so bad And his mind was blown. Now, knowing what we know now, now that you are exonerated, that you are out, what are the repercussions? Well, no, you should answer it. on 24 years of lost life? Robert's 48 today, right? He spent half his life in prison for a I was his co-counsel in the case, but I'll give him the credit because it was a remarkable line.

1:36:41 Ask any of those people that wrongfully put him in prison if they'd be willing to go to That's crazy. because when we overturned the verdict, when the state overturned the verdict in 2017, whatever it the court think is that at that moment when his conviction is thrown out and they say, we're going witness to preserve her testimony. And she all but confessed on the stand and the state dropped the case.

1:40:34 I can't talk too much about it because there's a law or there's a rule about not speaking out. mean, the case has been going on for a couple of years or a year and a half. It'll probably go on Right now I'm currently the director of community outreach and lead organizer and client advocate for All Needs Public Defender's Office. or the same court system

1:42:52 I was in prison right I should tell guys say one day you're gonna see me come back inside So I see it. because of the position I am I have a lot of influence in the community And we can get off into it later, but it's another book that I'm writing I want to create my own platform of fairness So there's a lot of people that until they hear a story like yours or some of the other

1:47:23 And then when Josh can explain just this human nature that's involved in this a lot of people look at of family members, Some relationships that just got lost and don't know how. relationships right to rebuild those relationships some relationships i had to cut off some relationship That's crazy. And I like to dispel the myth that when I came It wasn't paying much of nothing, but it was a job, right?

1:51:28 because and allow me the opportunity. for that person is huge to me. That's really huge, and that's humankind, You know, when we and Robert and I have the opportunity to speak to lawmakers that have different political views, this type of conversation is extraordinarily rare. Julius Jones is about to be executed in Oklahoma. Richard Glossop is sitting on Oklahoma's death

1:54:35 it took an army of people. It's really easy to throw someone in jail. It took a literal army of Just get the fuck away. You have a composure about you. And the fact that you continue to help and work with the Innocence Project and try to help people and actually do what you said, go back to Angola with a suit on and help people. That's sort of like my motto, you know, in the sense of turning all of my negatives,

1:57:44 reunited with their family, but you don't do it. Absolutely. I'm working towards this book. Do you have a publisher already? People always ask me, like, Robert, how the hell can you do it? you know, like, man, how you keep a smile on your face? and I think that what I want to do is sort of different from people and keep on scribing but the difference is also you're coming from a. You can still keep your inspiration and keep on scribing.

2:01:51 I'm not knocking it. We'll definitely let the world know, because if we don't get these stories told whether it's as many cases that you could describe when you come on Thousands of emails, Instagram messages of people that are writing to me and Jason, you know, you've changed my path in life. I feel the same way. I think what you do is amazing. And thank you, Robert, for coming on

2:05:04 And allow people to have that conversation.