Joe Rogan Experience #1774 — Josh Dubin Transcript

Transcript

0:00 The Joe Rogan Experience. I think I did like five minutes ago. Because of you talking about it and you putting the heat on whoever was responsible, now these two guys are free. here's the evidence we have against your client. And before the meeting started, and I said that was a horrible way to put it or whatever I said, but the context in which I was

3:21 we'll never know. amongst us as mammals, as human beings, that is especially so when you're talking about prosecutors, in my I don't speak for them, even though I'm the ambassador advisor. That's not my role and that's not what I'm here for. And I think that we need to have How do you manage that? it's a unique role because I have done so much pro bono work

8:12 that you need to be able to have a network of resources. So I have decided to take on a role President Trump. And we otherwise wouldn't have much to agree on, but we found common ground in It's like an episode of... iron man in a disguise because he doesn't want people to know who he is he's just a very private of awful shit, accusing this other man of being a child molester and a murderer and all kinds of craziness.

11:56 And they falsely claimed, and it was published in the New York Times, that her DNA matched are using biological evidence to get people off. So when Roy had sort of hit his And one of the guys was a matter of public record. Jesus Christ. citing this case from a misdemeanor What? He started to read the media attention. And I'm like, well, you wouldn't have ended up

16:48 or whether it's freedom of speech or whether it's gun control, but he's also a businessman. common ground than there's not. People, they get ideological and they get tribal and they because I've always like, this is the biggest problem with our society. right now? And if people can't get this, they just can't get it as far as I'm concerned. a concern to him. He's sleeping at a friend's house. This happened just last week. He's sleeping

20:53 That is a problem. these are all men and women of color getting blown away and executed. Now, look, between a knock raid and a no-knock raid is the difference between a few seconds. So you would go in front of a judge and you would say, it's caused specifically to people of color, because there is some, whether you call it really got behind, it ultimately failed. And that failure is not a Democratic failure or

26:07 Yeah. it fails in the Senate, and the votes were largely along party lines. And, you know, But it takes people on both sides to say, well, where can we find common ground? I'm not, you know, I don't have the answers. because it seems like But when he was running, he was in a very unique situation where he had massive amounts He had those droopy ear lobes

29:39 I don't know why I just like went back to We have a major problem in this country when it comes to the way we feel about leaders And that's what money is. you will not judge people that are on your team that are fucking it over for everybody else but they had that Build Back Better bill, about something the same way I question myself. It's a bit of a mind fuck, you know?

32:39 they will attack you and that will force a lot of people You know, I worry about coming off self-righteous or that I'm trying to save the planet or, you know, it's like I worry about other people feeling that way about me. That's exactly what it is. which I'll talk about later. But I just feel like And, you know, look, it's here in Texas. It was one of the other officers bullets oh jesus but he gets blamed for it because he

37:25 We'll never know because we don't, you know, the people that have studied this have estimated Yeah. well that's amazing and the whole case was built timeline of, and the police suspected the victim's husband of doing it. And they had this timeline a trial, he ended up getting tried. There was a hung jury. And they're going to retry him again, that pressure. So, and then the Albert Wilson case, which you know about, which is this young

43:59 She would alternatingly be kind to me and understanding. that come as a result of being on the podcast this kind of work before, but was like, very relentless and pursuing, I really want to help, And you made a promise to me that I wasn't expecting. And that is bearing fruit in a way also tell people you don't believe everything. Yeah, and I don't, you know,

47:51 I can tell you that I'm OCD enough, I know like in Clemente's case, I can't talk too much about it because I'm handling the federal civil rights case. Police aren't needed for traffic stops. That's not good either. That transgressions and he was saying that the problem with that is this is often how we And then they're in a fucking gunfight, like out of nowhere.

51:36 police officer a gun? I think that's a hundred percent true. I think there needs to be better You lie about evidence. Jocko Willink, who's a Navy SEAL and just embodies leadership and basically every cell in his body. an incredible position of power and influence. And it's got to be treated with far more respect than it's treated today to go and be a cop.

54:23 and I really care Are you going to abuse this man's constitutional rights? But there's great cops, and it's a hard job. But everything you said made total sense to me. I guess the part of it that becomes much more complicated. As you come to that job. So this whole. No, for human beings to look at someone as dissimilar to them and decide whether or not they when i see something or someone dissimilar i equate that with not good i think it's almost always nurture and not nature

57:16 They're just this little boy and his friend. It's easier to put people in groups. And I think when you're a cop, there's a real to rebuild Iraq. because I've said this before, where they have some sort of role models you're asking people to breathe air underwater. You're asking people to do things that have been It's a real solution. And what And what frustrates me also is that,

1:01:06 But what you just said, if you look at what Bill Gates and the billionaires pledge have done, whether it's for clean water or for other public health endeavors, this is a public health human rights crisis. if I was able to overcome that, I may otherwise have been on the path I'm on now. When someone says, oh, look at this guy. Do you know that that's the craziest path ever?

1:03:26 about you that doesn't send you to the wolves right away all the people that I know that are all those pull yourself up I mean, if you see what the circumstances that this guy was born into and what he had to overcome, and he was so gifted as a fighter, but he didn't have a chin, You know Shannon Briggs is going to fight Rampage Jackson? I don't know.

1:05:35 One round Muay Thai, one round MMA. It's one of the most horrific slam KOs in the history of the sport. All the way down, and then headbutts him from the impact. Oh, okay. And he did Pauly Malignaggi's first world title fight, I was like, what did you just do? He's got an Instagram, yeah. Shannon Briggs and Rampage Jackson are going back and forth.

1:09:08 that was that was the great dubini blowing joe that's hilarious and tony's mind yeah that's That was right after Because Greg just happened He was like a little Mike Tyson. Did he make some money? he was like, I don't know if he still does it to people. His last fight, he looked fantastic. WADA. You know, all boxing is not VADA tested. I would love to have you there if you're in town.

1:13:08 But look, he has been in a random drug testing program that's been sanctioned by the WBC for a while. that's not real. The reason why that's not real is because there's all these stories about guys Yeah. He's done a lot of performance enhancing drugs. He understands what they, and he also runs a A blood level testosterone, right? He said that's deep. Yeah. Well, he's on top of it dropped and why would a super athlete of the highest order have such a low testosterone a

1:16:11 So what you need is like a far more comprehensive not policing it, but understanding the testing procedures for a guy like Andre Ward and now Shakur, What was it, the clear? And then they test them when new technology becomes available and when new knowledge of new supplements become available Did you ever see Icarus? So this is what happens. Yes. So it's not like he was a Lance Armstrong or something like that.

1:19:34 supposedly untamperable, you couldn't get into them. The Russians had figured out a way to get They swapped the urine and according to Gregory Rechenkov, the Russians doped everybody except He goes into this? So like so many of their athletes I thought you meant cycle drugs. He's a complicated person. He belongs in the, I can see Burr saying, he belongs in the first ballot Hall of Fame fucking doper.

1:22:11 It's a dirty sport. life and put it through a mild microscope, you'd find way worse shit in mine or the next person's And he has a phrase for it. just decide, well, fuck that guy forever. But what he is trying to say is that I've seen it happen. dismissing circumstance. You're dismissing all the different aspects that make a person so It's the most dangerous thing because, look, a big part of what I am, this new endeavor that I'm taking on is clemency.

1:26:48 to say, you know what? I'm going to treat this clemency process as a real thing. right? Because they have to deal with international issues. But the amount of issues that a governor has to deal with, the amount of things they have on their plate, the DNA, witness testimony, everything. Find holes in it. Someone who's completely dedicated to truth, attorney's office. There's one in Jacksonville, Florida, that has been responsible for helping

1:30:28 a whole 2020 devoted to it. If there was ever – it's time barred. It was a favor for him to meet with me. He was two and a half hours late. And his decision By this point, he had turned his back Really? of his. Look at the Nelson Serrano case. He is in Atlanta. He has the strongest alibi possible. It is bizarre. a woman that is on the verge of being executed. But what can you do? You put pressure on governors,

1:35:23 How was that? I got a weak bladder, man. Is that a genetic thing? The more you know. That's where we are. born into awful circumstances, history of sexual abuse that started when she was six years old, the mother of 12 and is pregnant with twins and is accused of killing her child. And the false confession is hard for people to understand because the reaction that it invokes in folks is that I would never confess to a crime I didn't commit. I don't care what you do to me. I don't care what pressure you put on me. That's just A, not true. And B, you have no idea what it's like unless you have

1:41:04 It's a raise in your blood pressure. And try to wrap your head around the grief And the way you determine whether or not somebody is falsely confessing to something is you start to match the physical characteristics of the crime to what they say they did. her to say things she doesn't know the answers she's dealing with the enormity of the death of

1:44:52 of the case. But I know enough to know that the people that I'm close with that are working on Of the women that have been exonerated in the United States for crimes they did not commit are exonerated of crimes that never actually occurred. They either turn out to be accidents, suicides, 14 years on death row. So whenever I'm an alleged expert in jury selection, that was like my initial claim to fame. I wrote a book with a federal judge called The Law of Juries

1:49:02 the first thing you think about when someone has been I can encourage you that when you stare at the person sitting in that seat at the table, from you. And when you go back into that room to deliberate, you should walk through that door How do we make that happen with more regularity so that it's better to have 10 innocent, know. I think we're going to come to a point in time with civilization where there is going to

1:53:12 In what form does that take? You can use them to manipulate the way someone feels. It's like we don't know if someone's telling the If you arrest someone and convict someone for a crime they didn't do, that's not truth. I like the messiness of people. I don't like it when it comes to being incarcerated wrongly, how they craft their thoughts together

1:56:58 one of the answers to the solution that we were talking about earlier about this where you're with someone we've all had this experience and they're i feel like a hypocrite We're here for a couple hours and millions of people are going to listen to it. does to their minds. of the problem so your life doesn't end when you come home you're still getting

2:00:15 But I'll tell you one thing. of, well, even if they did what they're being accused of, isn't it enough at this point? When I say it out loud, I feel like I'm getting pulled over and I get the rush in finance or accounting, if it's an accounting fraud case? Because a lot of federal cases or white collar cases. And in the rare case like the El Chapo case,

2:05:05 the trial or you didn't. She, in any universe, should get a new trial. So the answer to your That's Psych 101. That's my first to tell them that it is okay. And how many of you feel that he must have done or she must have done something to be here? accepted not to. And, you know- And the Ghislaine Maxwell case was federal court? in most federal cases, jury is picked by lunch. I didn't misspeak. There's like a race to get the most critical. These kids, the wheels of justice grind slowly. Right. know, you should be so careful, so careful.

2:09:37 And in that case, the jury comes back and says that they're deadlocked. The defense has no burden to put on And, you know, as for your listeners, if you're summoned to go sit on with the criminal justice system. Her name is Nancy Gertner. And she was the only judge in that federal district that would allow attorneys to conduct jury selection. And she heard about my work and

2:13:15 doesn't seem any that doesn't seem to serve any purpose yeah and you know and if you juxtapose that with state court, I mean I had this dentist that was accused of poisoning his lover's husband to death with midazolam. And we need that kind of reform to happen in the federal system. Let's go on to the next panel." And that's what should happen. And that's not enough. Tell you why. Because the description they were given of the case,

2:16:44 amount of what they call cause challenges. And what they will do is they will say, I understand, and I am not shading this a bit. courtrooms are very regal. You have this authority figure. And the psychology there is, of course, And the person should be excused right then and there. The very vast majority of judges won't even allow that, it as free strikes. And for certain felonies, you get six, you know, others, you get three,

2:21:22 And he went through that whole bullshit routine and then said, you know, so I'm going to ask you, can you put that aside? Don't you do that. I want and called the marshals back into his chambers. And I didn't know whether I should take my shoelaces off because I was going to get arrested. But if I say to you, Joe, Right. And some of them wield it with dignity and some of them wield it with humility and honor.

2:24:37 I think if the federal government would go to the point of convening a grand jury and indicting someone, they must have the goods on them. I think they're probably guilty. Just say It's definitely scary when you let other people decide if you're telling the truth. She's faced a level of uncertainty and of conflict and of just chaos in her life at 20 years old being accused of a horrific murder that she had no connection to.

2:26:35 it will give you insight into how absolute power can so corrupt absolutely and a prosecutor who just decided that she must have you never know how strong you are until you go through some shit and i look i personally could and how strong you are until you're put in a situation where you're either going to succumb to it or figure out a way through it.

2:29:18 They develop character that you don't get I mean, it's maybe not the best analogy, That's why they're so fast. That's instantaneous, right? I'll write it down. David Rudolph, American Injustice. Yeah. And he has this terrific podcast with his wife, who's also a criminal defense lawyer. Her name is Sonia Pfeiffer. But his book, American Injustice, you remember the Peterson case where, you know, the Netflix documentary, The Staircase?

2:32:54 And the book is so fascinating because it takes you into the belly of that beast of cases that maybe didn't get the headlines, like the Peterson case and the Netflix doc, The Staircase. But his perspective on it is really one that explores the power dynamic and why law enforcement gets it wrong. So he's, you know, not true, and B, because you have to understand the phenomenon of tunnel vision. And David really

2:35:08 I think that, yeah, they did, those motherfuckers. where people want to win or lose you know they want to be able to decide that I know people that pulled over that swear they stopped at a stop sign and the cop said you That's a fact. where are we going to generate money from? Yeah. That's the problem because a lot of them are I became a cop. I worked as a security guard.

2:38:30 They tackled this guy off the golf cart quit was actually a Neil Young concert, which was hilarious. Like Neil Young's concert, while it was that's the that's a crazy irony that's really what I did I mean I was literally drunk keep on I'm not a big guy. feeling of self-preservation. Like, this is my friend Larry, who's like one of the most You're like, no, fuck you. And you're like, bring other guys over. And then it was like. And then it would happen. Yeah, when you tell a car, hey man, you can't park there. They'd be like, fuck you. You're like, no, fuck you.

2:41:09 And at that age, I would always be like, And then I would think about it it and I was like what this is comes to police and because the respect for police has waned considerably since the George Floyd murder. We literally have a different world now. Let's find out why they behave so poorly when they do and in fun better training and also I mean, I have friends that have worked as EMTs,

2:45:01 where your whole life is like centered centered around mitigating the threat to yourself About anything, right? About anything, yeah, because there are shades of gray in between it. circumstances who and I know his heart and he's such a good man so I'm I think I wish I listened more. people. We just get high and say stupid shit and just laugh and joke and just talk just have fun just to hang and

2:48:34 That's a hard thing to see. from the first time I met you to now. It's strange, though. how you look at these circumstances while they're taking place. But that's, again, so much easier than what we're talking about with these cases with the Innocence Project, with these cases that And he was crying and he said, I just needed some hope. So she's awaiting Senate confirmation. And those

2:53:04 So in between now and then Thanks for what you do. Tell people, website, Innocence Project. And there's detailed information on this page. And then I'm at Do it again in June?