Joe Rogan Experience #1798 — Michael Shellenberger Transcript

Transcript

0:00 The Joe Rogan Experience. So for people like, what the fuck, man? For sure. And a way for people to understand what can happen when bad policies get in the way of a city and turn it sideways, which is what has happened to San Francisco. Why so? meth under city supervision. So I guess the difference is that, you know, Munkhausen syndrome of hypoxia, the adult or the caregiver is poisoning the person directly. In this case,

2:23 And radical compassion, the idea is you're going to It was national media attention. I think it's bad for tourism. You go too far and you get pathological altruism. You can't believe it's real. It's crazy. interviewed hundreds of homeless people. And have they moved to Los Angeles specifically because it's easy to exist there like that? A lot of people show up in LA,

7:03 And they tell you that. Right. of the world. But there's so many blind spots. Like Candace Owen, who has many blind spots But it's like, you guys didn't even look through your own fucking archives corruption in Ukraine. There's a lot of activism. And this is, I think, this is a problem today with young people that are getting involved in media and that are getting involved in social media companies and that are getting involved in even big corporations like Google and Facebook and Netflix even, is they feel like they have a duty to be an activist.

10:33 best source of objective journalism right it was so good you know it's like you you you got no a kind of humanism in it, He just texted me very upset before I came in about the post running a hit piece against him for something he said when he was 18 supposedly ukraine so you know i just think you kind of go this just all It's in the thousands. So they can't be, even the way they didn't like George Bush, George W., they never attacked him the way they attacked Trump.

14:12 And that didn't used to be the case. It used to be the case that, like, you would report about things in an objective manner. So you have to attract people in this new world where there's fucking millions and millions of controversial headlines that are trying to vie for your attention. and these other folks that we know. and being honest about maybe your own conflicts about an idea and a problem.

16:04 Yep. Oh, and just look at what she's done since. than my articles for my own substack are in my voice. Good and evil stuff. wrong guys you know i mean it's like i think there's a i think the times is i think the defensive I'll describe the, but it is, it's interesting. Right. started reading this book called The Scout Mindset, which sort of summarizes cognitive

19:41 oh, I, you know, made some cognitive error due to our evolutionary biology. And the guy's like, he's like, no, and I'm totally, It's like, no, I was bullied into it. And then what's terrible too, of course, and Barry does a good job describing this on her, they're really putting up a fight and it does take somebody in a position of power to be like

22:22 Plus, then you have the gaps. I'm actually doing that. But I mean, you're, this is, I mean, I'm announcing it. I'm reannouncing it. of our liberal democracy. I see it. It's all over. I mean, you see it everywhere. And the governor – I've given – look, I did everything. first half of my senior year in high school to go help the Sandinistas in Nicaragua learn Spanish.

24:56 It was actually one of the safest war zones I'd ever been in. He said, I'm going to go help the Sandinistas. So, yeah, I mean, I always felt pretty confident in terms of like street wise and keeping myself safe. which is what we called cultural Marxism back in the 80s, early 90s. Some people are like, It's a huge problem. So for me, that's why I did these last two books. I wrote two books during

27:30 I write books because I want to make the world a better place. that's a dog whistle and i was like working for like working for i was like i actually did work need to go to rehab if their addiction is causing problems. And I don't even, people accuse me of I mean, I was really working on the environment for the last 20 years. And that's really a story

30:22 You put that in contrast with climate climate, you know, climate and and certain things, but there's very little discussion And they're bringing it through Mexico at an alarming rate. interview people on the street i interviewed so i found a guy i interviewed guys i put up on twitter He likes vinyl records. right so this is these drugs are really challenging you know and detoxing from them

33:35 talking about addiction whether it's to fentanyl or you know whatever opiates the the the root cause this escape solution that some really sad people have found that takes them out which we're all aware of, that parents are coddling their kids. I become obsessed with And we're having anxiety about things that are basically beyond our control like the pace of decarbonization often or what's happening to the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

36:20 just a couple days ago, where people were talking about, And it was like people, you know, I went to the supermarket. People on the hiking trails? that's outside, you're getting radiation off that rock. For sure. But the radiation that exists from All that got wiped out by the tsunami, I mean, it's what it is. It's leaking nuclear radiation into the ocean.

38:37 Or with the case of nuclear, the piece I just did for Barry was, you know, Europe has been shutting down its nuclear plants and not building new ones. nuclear, it's not just like, like the people with the masks on the hiking trails in Berkeley are just sort of – they're just kind of like whatever. on weather dependent renewables puts you at the risk of blackouts and blackouts kill people.

40:48 So U.S. carbon emissions declined more than any other country's carbon emissions had declined between 2005 and 2020, really 2020, 2021. to the extent that renewables helped with it, they were enabled by having natural gas power plants The big issue is the disposal of frack fluid because that stuff is contaminated. It's dirty. And is it possible to filter that stuff out?

43:09 gas land was full of misinformation. I mean, the famous scene where the guy's lighting the faucet And the oil and gas revolution came out of an awareness that an awareness that there was this natural oil and gas leaks. york banned fracking so and i i don't know if that scene of the fossan fire was in colorado or new would outweigh the benefits of lower carbon dioxide.

45:50 use change, namely less conversion of forests and grasslands into farmlands, which emits a lot of efficiency, low intensity farming to more modern forms of agriculture. And then moving, you know, There's technological things, but like you said, that we had in 1950. Same thing with nuclear power plants. What really changes with jet planes is Yeah, now people, what really killed people was the evacuation,

48:33 Fukushima because it's a beautiful agricultural area. They scraped all the topsoil off that they Do you, are there, I mean, I know that there's some uses for nuclear waste now, productive uses for nuclear waste as a potential recyclable fuel. That was used to alarm people. the United States. For me, that's a much safer, simpler, straightforward event. 22nd century,

50:57 the official reason is because, So it's clean, super clean discharge water and all these sea – because the sea life, they love the warm water just like we do. Jesus. So why'd they shut down the one near San Diego? So they're burning more diesel, including affecting, as usual, poor communities of color. And so the best interest of the people of California is to keep operating our largest source of zero carbon energy, which is Diablo Canyon.

53:56 reactors this december at a time when they're like dangerously relying on the russians for they're going to get rid of nuclear somehow. like when you meet with them and talk to them and interview them, Yeah. It's politically toxic. all that. So for me, abundant, cheap energy is the key to sustainability. They have But isn't that something that Bill Gates has talked about as well?

57:26 your retirement. That that happens, yes, birth control helps, but really it's just moving from and yeah what is what's the goal of that aren't they people i never get that when they're like Okay, so where do you think these people come from? When you want to depopulate the planet, that's like my attitude before I take my morning run. And this morning I woke up, and I got my normal, like, weird anxiety,

1:00:17 Oh, absolutely. or was it MSNBC, People who do yoga are right wing psychos. and fighters um and something but i don't think they brought me up well i mean i think look i'm coming and then it going away. hitting a bag is the greatest thing the world has ever known. our genes how we evolved thousands and thousands of years of avoiding predators and and wars with

1:02:59 When you're running up and going down, I would go slow. Because it's so exhausting. Just like my dog needs me to throw the ball for him and play with him. Like the kids should be getting a workout first thing early in the day. I don't know if you saw that. you can say parental absence, but father absence, Girls are up with the moms doing the stuff that the girls, the moms did.

1:05:57 Don't turn your phone on for the first hour. Because I agree with you. emotionally successful, and physically successful people. But he is just like you and I in that it's getting the ball rolling. Right. It's like, I would be lying if I said that I don't have any hesitancy. No, no, it sucks. It is, but life is a series of hills and valleys. to have some kind of standards? Cal psych, what is that?

1:10:09 whatever that number is, and then you do a survey of these people and you find out, oh, they're going to take action right away because the governor has extraordinary powers which we will that's what they did. They mobilized the whole society to shut down the open they need. And when the Europeans did that, that's what they did. They mobilized the So that may not always be possible.

1:12:33 A large majority don't want to go into shelters when you offer it to them. had a campsite that they set up for homeless people. people like breaking into cars and all kinds of other crimes and open drug use. We can make significant changes in a matter of months, Joe. because they're two and a half years old, and they were probably under counts in the year 2020. But

1:14:59 10 to 12,000 total homeless of whom six to, I would say around six to eight are unsheltered. The only people considered sheltered are people in official shelters. s'mores. Yeah. And it also brings us back to that they're down on their luck narrative. folks they're staying with. And then they were finally kicked out onto the street, I wanted to be right where the drug dealers were.

1:17:42 So we have these numbers. what I feel very strongly about is that success breeds success. So we want to start somewhere Kentucky or Colorado or wherever they came from. But I think it's also fair to assume that some I would say start in L.A. just because it's too far gone and it needs to be cleaned up as quickly as possible. And if I don't do that, I'll consider my tenure a failure.

1:20:33 I haven't tracked it closely. I mean, by nature, the type of person and you're drinking water out of an old milk jug that you bought or got somewhere. That's not true. See what I'm saying? We have mechanisms to do that. out you don't have to choose between mass homelessness and mass incarceration, but that It needs to have – you need to have a much broader mix of people in there.

1:24:35 It's one of the many things that we need to do in California. That's just a basic programming language. know could be helping other people to get into recovery so we can do all those things with a We know that people relapse. legislation for shelter first. That's the first thing. Shelter first, treatment first, housing And some of it will depend on politics.

1:27:29 law enforcement, just to handle the homeless problem? It seems like you need a team. Oh, And in some ways, the workforce is the most important thing. these, you know, weed and seed methods, they call them the same methods. But what was the difference That relationship is essential. But we need that first momentum because if we don't have are responding to drug overdoses. So the system is so grossly

1:31:05 on homeless people right now is exorbitant, but ineffective. So what are they doing with that They passed a ballot initiative in Los Angeles called Proposition HHH, and it was apartment unit in Venice Beach or San Francisco. That's absurd. But yet that is the official The fuck are you saying? rooms as we've been doing since COVID. So these basic questions you're asking are they don't even the establishment governor gavin newsom the people

1:34:26 Really? It is down to 50 percent now. And he was – but look, I mean – super nice guy, by the way. Right. Well, hopefully a different person wrote that. As do I. You sound like a Republican when you say that. See, this is the problem, right? These ideologies Have you ever needed to call the police? You're seeing – it's crazy. And they're going to release them, and they have no jobs, and they have nowhere to go, nothing to do, and there's no police presence.

1:38:33 Because what we need is more funding of the police. What the fuck are you talking about man? Do you know how hard it is to be a cop? And not only that, but you need more police to remove the bad apples. I agree. They can't change anything. So things are changing quickly. You know, my So when you say he's got a radical agenda, like what is that? You can go back home. You can get a job and pay for your own apartment.

1:42:14 So New York had how many? When they – when most people think – ordinary people think of homeless people, they think of the people they see on the streets. Those people are called unsheltered homeless. When most people think, ordinary people think of homeless people, they think of the people they see on the streets. Those people are called unsheltered homeless.

1:43:37 Michael, like if you're a 75 year old heroin addict, who's been using heroin for 40 years, and then became a fentanyl smoker In terms of, I don't know if it's recidivism. Ed Clay, he started a center over there because he had an experience, back pain, injury, got on pills, couldn't get off of them, was really fucked, and went over and got treatment.

1:45:45 in terms of like mushrooms or all these other ones. But the most effective one appears to be This is the path forward. I think a lot of other people in their recovery, they benefit from hard exercise, I'm very practical. But the goal, this is what matters. The goal right now is addiction There always is. Right now, recovery is not the goal. right? So officially it was around 14 billion over two years, but that is a gross underestimate of it.

1:50:11 Yeah. There's no pressure put on them to get towards recovery. Maybe it has the opposite effect. So they just moved to California. Like what's the first thing you do is you do ban camping and then force them into some sort of Yeah, we have that if he needs that. Something like that? So it's kind of like we have basic, clean, safe shelter for you. What happens if they fail their drug test?

1:53:51 own room as a carrot and stick. So do you have an additional 100,000 units that are available There's a debate in the literature. We have tens of thousands of counselors that are willing to get into this hard work. There's obviously some we- We did fitness too. 50% reading proficiency, black proficiency, about 10%, Latino at 15%. This is a scandal. I mean,

1:56:46 Oh, yeah, true. Longer school days. not be the healthiest environment for them. And a lot of kids may need that. True, but a lot of times the school's an unhealthy cleaning the classroom. Kids are involved in cooking. It's absurd to me that children can poor education are. And again, I think some of the stuff has to be negotiated. I want to get beyond.

2:01:17 that require incredible amounts of time and effort. If you're concentrating on cleaning up the homeless issue, There's still hundreds of people not appointed. By the time the elections come in 2024, voters are going to be excited about what they've seen. But then in terms of long-term change, you're right. you know, and of our infrastructure of our educational system occurred was in the 1960s under the father of Jerry Brown, Edmund Brown. That's when we created the water systems that

2:04:33 Why do you think that happened? we should all have the same goals, most of us. Improve the quality of the education of our kids That sounds very hippie, but I do think that that's one of the contributions that California has made has been the sense in which it's not just, you know, man does not live on bread alone. It's like, there seems to be a default setting for people where they have almost like a religious gene or a thing that

2:07:37 There's a loss of human connection. You know, I mean, the governor was building, the governor, like this governor and the last cars allow us all this freedom. But not in L.A., neighborhood. They certainly don't want you to put big apartment buildings or big homeless shelters and are excited about this. You know, my kids are excited about you, but thanks, man. My kids are,

2:10:54 such a tarnished jewel. Yeah. To me, it's like an ex-girlfriend that I used to really love hanging Oh, you did? No, it's not. Absolutely unacceptable. It's totally unacceptable, but it's like, holy shit, is it different. Yeah. Yeah. It's unacceptable. No, it's not. But. Yeah. like bro, save that. Save that shit. Because not everybody's bootstraps are in the same place.

2:13:07 These things are really important. They really matter. Having structure. These things are super restore our humanity restore the cities restore democratic liberal civilization. Someone told me recently, I don't know who said not like a fucking super predator out there Absolutely. Mass formation psychosis, which psychosis refers to basically being in a dream state or being disconnected from reality and having all sorts of fantasies.

2:16:08 they'll say all sorts of lies and then i think people will be like okay i've heard all the lies I mean, Sun Tzu says the best way to win is by not fighting, right? So if my candidacy results in the entire ruling class of elites in California changing It was perfunctory. I mean, here, like the homeless crisis is far worse than it was two Just a little bit of nothing.

2:18:27 I mean, it was like bullet points. I picked up a new word for it. It's also to have the courage to do what you think you can. including our mutual friend, Bridget Phetasy. Yes. one in Venice Beach, one in Sacramento. We've been campaigning. And we got to the place where How much is like a stethoscope involved in psychiatric evaluations? I have not.

2:21:38 I'm not sure it would, but it may involve changing the Constitution. I'm going to go into the agencies, like in person, into the agencies Yeah. Well, it was stolen, often by criminals in these criminal gangs. Just in California. Go right in. as governor to fire people. I have the whatever-it-takes attitude that we need those That's what needs to happen.

2:24:57 Union from attacking your mother be ashamed yeah she is your mother how does she feel Yeah. Is your mother still alive? She is, my dear mother. I'm like, mom, I would love to go on Rachel Maddow. But there is going to be a moment when ordinary people are going to be like, hey, I'd actually like to see what he stands for. How much of a difficulty do you think it's going to

2:26:20 really cool non-partisan team and one of my guys was like – he kind of – when I told him – when he was interviewing me because I was happy to get these guys, they were kind of like, we've been looking for somebody like you. I'm contrarian, and I don't really love that word, because contrarian sort of implies that you're because that's not the way anybody's ever done it. Or you're going to have to modify the

2:28:23 the police departments I don't control the police departments, by the way. That's still controlled by the local government. So I've but we can certainly use California Highway Patrol for this. if I don't make progress on this issue over the first two years before the midterm elections in That's cute. Is there anything that the governor of California does well?

2:30:39 honestly i think he wants to be president for reasons he doesn't even understand i think he governor vows to get to the bottom of who's in charge of California. That's what some of the These are people that came up during normal times. Some of it I think is nuts. If you said all these things and then we go to 2024 and California is looking amazing.

2:33:25 We have five months then from June 7th to November 8th gavin's record as a guy who's been in power for 20 years and during that time it's created this Oh, wow. They did housing. He's actually followed the expert recommendations on these things and made the situation worse. Energy. And they'd go, when, The Dutch in the fall announced that they were going to expand nuclear before Putin's

2:37:17 You know, nuclear, I mean, I always kind of think about how, I don't want to over, when I look at how everything has failed at every level, I go it's basically people – it's not just they follow the experts. in the San Francisco Bay. And on that note, Michael Schellenberger,