Joe Rogan Experience #1836 — Ryan Holiday Transcript

Transcript

0:00 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! Yeah, good to meet you. So not really, I guess. You know, like, I dropped out of college at 19 and so and i worked in hollywood and so i was always like the the Robert Greene 40 all its power guy sure by the way I brought you a new one from him oh It was the weirdest thing. you know, like, when you're on a conference call. I was supposed to like be like feeding him info you know like when you're on the on the conference call I was supposed to like type him stuff and uh you know like you log into the call

2:53 Right. Right. He's like, what the fuck are you doing? and then like, went back oh my god it was crazy I dated a girl when I was like 27 and she was an So she worked for this guy who was just a complete asshole, agent and you get an assistant, you're just going to abuse them because you were abused when you were an assistant. You have to go through it.

5:44 But I think back then it was unchecked you know now businesses. You're starring in an action movie right next to the fucking biggest A-list celebrities in the world. You can see by someone like Amber Heard. probably there's probably something in that too where you're aware of the inherent bankruptcy like So it was like 20, 30 years ago and they're still around.

8:53 like they're beneficial. What did you want to do? It's like, here's how books come together. crazy people, but all of that ultimately informed, I've never even heard of anything like this. one of the more interesting things about the stuff that he writes is how relevant it is today. that we don't communicate like today. If you're reading a translation from the 1850s or the 1600s,

12:36 for the Modern Library, listen to them and How fucking talent. I don't think he was trying to talk to the audience i think he was There's no way we should be able to be like, this passage and why he thought what he thought. But like these slaves would smash up sea slugs to make sure that doesn't happen. Yes. The irony of that movie He was a psychopath.

17:13 There's another great Eastern emperor, Cyrus the Great, and he has a shitty son too. And they happen in a row. And they happen in a row because each one does not have a male heir. the thinking was Antoninus Pius would live for like Marcus's wife? It is a lot, but isn't that one of the reasons why the general age that people lived to was so low back then?

20:26 There's lots of old people in rome it's just like getting getting over like if you made it to 40 maybe you can make it Oh. It's a complicated thing, but he has a stepbrother. And Marcus, when he's Antoninus' favorite, Antoninus preps him, he ascends to the throne. So and how did Marcus Aurelius die? Of the plague. It overwhelms Rome. one argument is he's a psychopath and there's nothing you can do.

25:06 I think it's a power thing. I think growing up with that amount of wealth and that amount of power that your your mind develops in this privileged position where you never have to struggle you never have to develop character If you want to really examine human beings in terms, if you they do? they get their faces Like, you never had a childhood. know from the moment you're born, you're special. And that's maybe why there's five good emperors in a row is that each one of those emperors did not grow up thinking that.

28:30 There's never like this sense of calm and discipline and being centered. like my life is never going to be super normal Yeah. I don't know. There's a giant amount of success in athletics different mental challenges, and there's different lessons that can be learned from academic pursuits. I think one of the things I think a lot about and that I dislike, like if I was like describe philosopher he'd be like university professor turtleneck like tweed you know uh jacket with pads on it or

32:37 intellectual pursuits and they look down upon pursuits that are physical in nature because Yeah. yes that's what my friend John Joseph says John Joseph is a lead singer of the Cro-Mags but he's it's so much easier than it used to be, but it's still hard, but it's just easy because I'm, So like, yeah, you're doing it in the cold plunge or running or fighting or whatever. And then when you're like, when I'm working on a book and books are hard, you know, and they're like halfway through, I'm like, this isn't coming together. This sucks. Should I stop? I'm like, I know this feeling very well. And I know that you don't listen to this feeling. So like,

35:39 Yes. goes to work. He's always torturing himself. So he has this ability to ataraxia is the greek word but it's sort of like freedom from disturbances like even if it's crazy a reason why fighters take warm-up fights and fighters when they're active when they fight all accustomed to that feeling. And then you can maintain calm and then you could keep yourself

39:10 Or like, I heard this. But in his defense, he is a physician. that stuff. And so I tried, that's what my rule is. Like I don't use the phone for an hour in And it was just doing this wild thing where it just kept calling. Ballin! It was weird, man. feeling that I had where I was like, wow, I feel lighter. It can't be good for you. twitter it's a lot of people and if i absorb all their opinions it's unmanageable yeah but i'm so

43:34 no one would say to your face, unless they were a really dangerous person, really bother you and i know some people that never learn this skill and i will see something but if you get too much of it, it's gonna fucking it's like, you haven't been exposed I can feel the noise. I think that's exactly right. We were there at 3 o'clock in the morning getting falafels, and I heard gunshots.

46:30 dislike the most is like when the like a dump truck or something goes through an intersection So the value of people diminishes to the point where people become a liability instead of being an asset. It turns down your ability to empathize because if you did empathize, you would be paralyzed. the lives and we cannot manage all of the lives. It's just not possible.

48:55 our brain is mapped. I really do. I think this is a very recent thing, right? Social media has only existed for the last 13 or 14 years as and it's going to change the one of his things that he said that always freaks me out he said we're gonna I just get to be me and do what I want to do and focus on like what I think is cool and what I want Did you see that person's house?

52:10 what I would call it. The devil's rag. And I go, guys, last time I checked, I'm on fucking TV. And they're reading Variety to find all the people that are doing better than them. it's preventing your ability from like A hundred percent. If you are constantly dwelling on other people's opinions, if you're constantly It might be 40. You might have 40. And now what happens?

54:30 I can do it with only 60% of my capacity. And they, their career is a disaster. And he said, oh, how lucky for him to have arrived at perfection and to have the time to do such a They said, Epictetus says the chief task in life is separating things that are in your control from what's outside your control. There's many books that are available if you want to go seek it.

57:28 So you'll find them in other places. And so 12 steps are really like a way to teach someone how to be a person again, like from rock bottom. control like rigorous exercise like, like sauna and cold Which is, I mean, social media is designed to like focus on other people's shit. Yes. And what's fascinating about it, And he compares television to the way they talked about the printing press. Yeah when the printing press was first made available a

1:00:46 that's why they do a weigh in and a fight, right? Like, uh, so cameras will be there. like what postman is saying is that when television is the dominant medium the world like seven hours people went home for lunch yeah they told people to go home for dinner and come And that's it. think of things as technology because when you think of technology, you think of tech, right?

1:04:43 Like podcasting, I think, is better than most of the other sort of online tech-focused mediums. But I think what Postman's entire three plus hour conversation they'll find a sentence from someone may have misspoken or a Now you contrast that with Twitter, which is driven primarily by journalists, right? There's a little bit of this and a little bit of that.

1:07:28 And I think that's one of the great benefits of podcasting is that podcasting is at its core, it's communication in its purest form. So everything is together. over everybody. I know. metric of journalism that was invented by gawker like in 2008 like not a long time ago like all journalism forever was not monetized in that fashion until New York City at one point in the 20s or 30s had like 50 daily newspapers for one city.

1:11:24 population growth along that, right? You see how many, that would be crazy. So it seems like the Which is also a tech invention that destroys a thing. journalism, it was, you know, extra, extra read all about it. So you had, let's say there's 50 Times knew we are delivering this story to 20 million, who's the guest going to be? Like, who are you going to have? I'm like, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.

1:15:15 that I'm interested in. But it's all scheduled on my phone. What? He wound up in Russia because he was in the Arctic in Siberia during the time where Russia invaded Ukraine, just coincidentally. And then if there was a hint of bullshit, I think people wouldn't trust me anymore. to. I thought you'd probably have to promote it everywhere. You'd have to go way out of your way

1:18:04 platform and that's a real issue. Yes. That's a big one. that switch political affiliations. They get lured in to the other side and they get a lot Like I want to own the audience, not the audience own me. and you can get a lot of money that way. It's a good business model, but it's not smart. today, but it's kind of similar because if you go male to female, you're most likely not going back.

1:21:27 and then it's like, like magic, they suddenly land and now these people don't want you anymore. conservative as well as like, I'm very socially liberal, like about as socially liberal as you No one has to worry about how to put a roof over their head. All you have to worry about lot of great people because I think there's a lot of people that are motivated by desperation.

1:24:22 Because you're like, these people are, I'm responsible for these people. Yes. There's a lot that's attached to poverty that's horrific. hip hop artists who are so poor became so rich and inspired so many people with their music. Like that subsistence number. and so many people to become criminals people or think less with your heart as you get older, which strikes me as kind of one of the

1:28:24 thinking like imagine being that kid's parents Society's failed you. They don't have boots, man. the the liberal part of me feels terrible for the guy who got killed but also feels terrible though like i might have some conservative ideas most of my ideas are very liberal and in that like a 500 pound man is trying to do box jumps. Like it is so goddamn hard. And we got to teach

1:31:54 Did you watch the movie Nomadland? to screw up? What choices do you make in your life where you end up this way? Like my first thought was like, basically like, how is it this person's fault? Right. And I street. These are like, these are people who, if you saw on the street, you wouldn't know that they I mean, there's a great documentary that was put out by Mariana Van Zeller.

1:34:39 And you go to the pain management center. Doctors and they had it set up that way Well, you know, the people that are running it They're going to find a way to ruin their lives because they're idiots. I'm forced to look at the reality of the situation. I didn't have the best childhood, but I had food. lives in Appalachia, Oh, you can't afford that?

1:38:15 carrying around on a bank balance. And it's getting bigger every year. And then we wonder who are getting their social security checks docked because they owe student loans. master's in this or whatever, you have no recourse. And those people in their middle-class houses or meanwhile is charging students $50,000, $60,000 a year for the for the courses for this piece of paper.

1:40:56 You're getting paid for your work. It's really very simple. we think of them as good people and I'm sure they mean well. Some of them do. But the system You don't have to spend all this money on education. on genetic engineering? No, you probably would have to have some sort of a degree to qualify And I'm betting on Nancy. But that's 2017, so five years later.

1:44:31 So it was only 27,000. you would take it for granted and you wouldn't work hard at it. It's like the same Yep. Yeah, because if they're your kids and you could choose, you want them to play lacrosse or something where they have the most upside but the least downside. See if you can find this. Wow. and the risk of developing disease. It's a big part of what I do.

1:48:56 out of this and when i see it now in friends and i see it in people that i care about and i've seen and you got to get away from that guy don't do that anymore stop doing it because you don't get like being a professional fighter is one of the craziest fucking things you could do with your If you watch an incredible, incredible fight, it is so entertaining that the joy that you bring to

1:52:22 I'm all about people. And generally that means he's got an education and he chose, he's a competitor. So he chose to fight. But I'm just saying when you look at some of these athletes or fighters or whatever where they were like the alternative was like jail, drugs, like nobody. at an early age and like groomed into it right like mike tyson right you know doesn't seek out

1:55:02 is exploitive because you exploit people's desire for victory and their How many people? It's horrific shit. Clearly, there was some desire to be seen or heard that went fundamentally And it drove them to pursue a world that they could control and make and explore and have agency over. And what is that guy? Yeah, here you go. I mean, his character to this day is like, I don't know how many millions of copies of the Conan books, but I read them all when I was a kid.

1:59:16 so vibrant and exciting meanwhile this guy's life was dog shit yeah it was terrible but he wrote inherently human and wonderful though, about mastery and mastering something. And the feeling of winning at chess. I'm a big fan of pool. I play a lot of pool. It's Your family's not going to eat. that's incredibly human that we get rewarded for getting better at things.

2:02:24 Yes, yeah, that's a perfect example too. But when you're there in person and you're walking around, you're just like, holy fuck, this is insane. And there is just something crazy about that. Homo Faber is one of the names for the human species. and all it does is make better and better stuff. That's what you're doing, because everybody gets a reward out of getting better at things.

2:04:39 Only recently could you get up and look down on human beings. But that's what bees do. Well, that ensures that you keep buying the latest and greatest stuff, which ensures that we keep making the latest and greatest stuff, so innovation keeps pushing forward. And through this horrible event, we realize, oh, my God, this can happen. And like, so, you know,

2:07:29 falling down this is what it is and it's always been that way it always will be that way until minds of the day for lack of a better term like marcus aurelius like there's no other form of One of the things that was really fascinating was the value that he placed on forgiveness. And he says like, I want to show history how civil strife can be dealt with.

2:09:58 that he talks about forgiveness in meditations, but then he has to actually apply it in his life at the highest level. Yeah. I mean, the horrible part of the Civil War, Why did we fight this war over it? of the people who went to war for like the worst possible cause you can think of for going to war I met a guy when I lived in East Austin down the street, this guy, his name was Richard Overton.

2:13:08 It's not that long ago. and I mean this doesn't happen in florida Yeah. I'm a Yankee? They think of red and blue, like the red states and the blue states, Almost entirely. think you should hand things to people necessarily, but I think there's a real value in making Our society is a society that lifts people up. that where we don't feel like that we're get them young and train them better and educate them

2:17:23 And you don't have to be defined by your worst moments. But I mean like Ruby Bridges, you know, from the famous photo, she integrates that school. Yeah. Right. part of like my family's history that we benefited from this you know we think it's a long time ago effect, right? I think one of the things that we're going through today is just that. It's

2:20:08 That's nonsense. you're really victimizing other people, Now, they're being vicious and mean and enforcing their kindness, Yeah. and don't have the ability to objectively assess their own thoughts and their own actions That's like my favorite some UK thing? because I haven't seen that I think this is the whole thing. Hands. The badges on our caps. All right, let's see.

2:24:52 Yeah, we killed him, but trust us, this guy was horrid. Even that is more usually depicted with the skin still on. sickles. What's so good about a sickle? A rat's anus? Yeah, nobody ever has that realization, though. I mean, Republican, Democrat, they are all dipping their toes into those waters. stock. And then we look how much money we made. Like they knew these bills are going to be passed.

2:28:02 book called what makes sammy run and it's about this like Jewish agent, like Hollywood agent in like the 20s or 30s, like endlessly ambitious. And we're talking about boxers, like because he's from the disenfranchised group. Then he comes from the sl that, it doesn't age that well is the hero of Entourage. what people aspire to be. like World War II or like Genghis Khan or like, like any of these horrific moments where things

2:29:46 His name is Sissimness. him being skinned alive. And then there's the painting that shows they're just stripping his That that was an advancement like not that long ago. that's the worst thing I've ever seen. That does say something about the progress we've made as a the trend you're like this is just happening you're missing the point yeah by the way,

2:32:42 Things also can get worse. because of the fact that there's unprecedented models of communication. And it's true, like there is misinformation. But it's also equally true that these same tools, The first self-help book was published in the 1870s. And it doesn't have to be because God said so. Really? anything. manipulation but uh you know people change well write them out but you're a young man you know it's uh the the self-help genre is a very troubled genre

2:36:12 It's just a matter of your thinking. The second part is the most important. but Marcus really says this thing about how your life is dyed by the color of your thoughts. it's going to happen. barring some insane, unfore day, chances are, barring some You can get there in incremental steps, But, you know, six years later, number one, you know, now it's sold like, you know, almost a million and a half copies like now.

2:38:35 what's interesting to me about the book thoughts for people and you've really got people moving and generally a good direction written an article about it that was popular online in like 2008, 2009. look, you're getting better every day as a writer. So you're going to only write this book one time. wrote it when I was 21, I think. Well, luckily we're talking about stoicism and you literally are preaching the philosophy

2:41:26 Really? For sure. But like if you look at the fine print The Bible would be the best selling book every every week. So there's a certain amount of filtering. Right? is problematic? No, I just think like, I think it was like maybe borderline or they just weren't suddenly in 2019. Interesting. That's interesting's interesting yeah how gross well and the decision of what list you're on so are you advice how-to miscellaneous or are you non-fiction general non-fiction like the general

2:44:59 And I think one of the greatest in the world at what he does. Yeah, he didn't— is going to be relegated to advice how-to miscellaneous. which is like a set of biographies The Nobel Prize is fucking bullshit. or ranking is extra. Yeah. I think that has to be the case when it comes to selling books, right? Because Like my kid found the iHeartRadio award.

2:47:56 that does that mean it is no it just means some people don't like it there's people that don't was driven to be like great from a very early age. And so he's being interviewed. He just graduated like here's what i did i got this grade this grade and then um rickover goes like how'd you finish in Like, I didn't always study this. You don't control any of that.

2:50:20 Yeah. notorious for working incredibly hard during the offseason and coming back better than ever. any moment and to take it for granted or to waste it or leave something on the table is I know you don't like him very much, but I think it's a different view. is about a guy in Siberia sent to hunt down a man-eating tiger oh and it's no okay this is you know the you know the Count of Monte Cristo? Yes. The famous story? Okay, Alexander Dumas.

2:53:00 All right. The greatest hunting trip of all time. Yeah, it's still there. We have our wildlife preservation system that we have in place. Oh, wow. Can I keep going? She runs off a parking garage. Actually, I did this book The Best History of Texas. but seriously, but I would read this. I read that book every time I start a project. Really appreciate your work.