Joe Rogan Experience #1854 — Rick Strassman Transcript

Transcript

0:00 The Joe Rogan Experience. Try to keep this fist from your face. That's probably the best way to do it. Yeah. There we go. I think it was before the podcast. Good. was you need to adjust cameras good your book was fascinating to me because it you know, the college town I was living in at the time. And my friend was too. It was a shared hallucination

2:40 Just shake it? You're getting someone's funk along with the hash. Yeah. He's going to say it right here. It had a couple of springs put on there, and you know these iron casing boxes made and it works it I'd like to buy one. in general, what? Is it just that it's much stronger? It's much stronger. So like that That's how they tricked you into it? and I wonder how that works chemically.

7:06 It didn't make any difference. know people that have kind of like blown fuse. Oh yeah. Yeah. Well I get the occasional email those hospitalizations and things. I don't think there's any doubt. The real question is how many you know, drinking a lot in really unstable relationships or they, you know, and they also, you know it's just one of those weird ones where people just they did just start believing that

10:19 Or at least say it to people, like, that I'm communicating to them through a chip in their brain? of their unusual experiences. with how other human beings brains work mine as well right i'm fascinated by the brain about how and look at things has always been fascinating to me because I Schizophrenic patients were just amazing. Well, it depends on the kind of schizophrenia.

13:28 Well, I think in my own psychedelic experiences, I might have gone crazy for an hour or two. Apparently. and they just started chowing, and they went crazy. Because he was on... It wasn't like two hours. somehow or another you're still feeling the effects of it like what happened and ridiculous. Particularly to people like it's not just a So I must put it in some sort of context where it makes sense to me

17:06 And it's like almost like it's so hard for me to wrap my head around that I convince myself it's another dimension, but it's not. So I think if you could get into those spaces with machines, let's say imaging machines or cameras. McKenna talked about that a long time ago. Yeah. What do what they're doing? What what kind of? This realization, which he took to signify that his awareness could outlast

20:53 So he could be. It's a 2019 study. the body? Like they found it in the lungs, they found it in the liver, right? Do you think it's That completely makes sense. That would look totally similar to someone being schizophrenic. is that the original paper described the DMT in the brain, which was snagged on the way in and out Yeah, yeah. Its location, I think, has contributed to the reverence.

26:14 Whoa. prion diseases. They get it from eating brain and spinal tissue, right? Right, right. Like cannibals How did they come into contact with it? It's prion disease. Yes. And there were a lot of immigrants in the Bronx. Yeah. It's one of the glands. Thymus. In lamb, veal, pig, or beef, they have a rich, creamy texture and are often served roasted or fried.

30:06 What if you ate Einstein's brain and you actually got smarter? Yeah. And you get sucked backwards, but now you're stuck in a computer. right and then that and it's a part of dying is that these portals are open. in a fucking computer attached to a bunch of wires. There's not even a body that you could detach. It could be kind of regulating everything all of the time.

32:55 It's really low in the blood. and then put an electrode there and keep that going. It kind of makes sense, doesn't it? Wow. Well, you know, one of the hallmarks of the DMT effect is that it feels more real than real. So it's tempting to speculate. trying to impart some ideas that will help you with your life because it's a godlike This is what I tell people.

38:13 I mean, I like to play devil's advocate, and I like to think that maybe I'm messing with my own head, and maybe I'm just like, it's like. Yeah. It contains information about you, right? Yeah. don't do that but like saying fuck you to me it was so clear what they were doing it was so clear 600 million five hundred thousand times like the way a child would say I love you with like some crazy number

40:50 It was wild, but it was that simple sort of, Mm-hmm. I think it's good that you did that Well, you talk as openly about psychedelics as Dennis. he was describing the stoned ape theory. It's incredible listening to him say it because the I think more likely is that the brain is an antenna. the computer and bam they got an idea for a book. like it's an

44:29 It's a loaded word, but so is love. weed cannabis. I like to smoke a lot of cannabis. Like, okay, settle down, buddy. It seems like whatever anything really affects people in a lot of ways, there's always someone treatment centers like we could have all this had this lined up right if they didn't pass that sweeping psychedelics act the controlled substances that we right now they're still illegal but

47:10 Right. horny. You're going to be able to dial in happy. I mean, 50 years from now, who knows what they're going to be able to do. That would be a good zombie movie. And it may be that that configuration is common to any organism possessing DMT. Good. No, no, I never did. central nervous system in petri dishes. It was very high tech. It was fun. And in the beginning, I didn't get a good reception. Most of the medicals.

52:31 school and I trained in psychiatry and you know took a job up in Alaska which was around the time that people were thinking and starting to understand winter depression which then put and ran that melatonin pineal study. And I got my chops as a clinical researcher. And your melatonin was not It's just Tristan. But it wasn't his ring. I just didn't want someone else listening to our entire conversation.

54:31 I think we were all happier back then. And now they get the 5G. That's all you'd have to carry around. I bet the the battery lasts a year how long does the battery last on this thing You could do that with Dragon. Well, that's what I'm saying. little attention spent to your immediate life and you know what's actually going around you Yeah, it was voted.

57:02 It's from World War II, the Pacific Arena. Like how quick would, I mean, 1947, how quick is it going to be to learn Navajo? There's maybe like a dozen, you know, two dozen that are still alive. That's not what I'm saying. you kind of don't want to go there, but what do you think of monkey pox? Supportive treatment. No, it's not killing people, but they're pretty uncomfortable.

1:00:20 or I don't even get the news about weird diseases on this phone. Yeah, yeah. Zoonotics, yeah. What do you mean by keep me going? I think you're always going to deal with certain numbers of people that are trying to make enormous profits does because what are people capable of at their worst well they're capable of starting unnecessary I think most people are good, but I think most people are easily swayed.

1:03:31 And, you know, the concentration camp culture, history is pretty, it's pretty, well, it's amazing what kind of evil everyday people can, you know, lay on other people. Isn't that wild? Wow, they're even private of Nazis. Yeah, he doesn't want a jewish uh I mean, what kind of restitution could he make that? Yeah. You want some coffee? Yeah. training funds until that time. Yeah, you know, so we discovered that there wasn't much

1:07:26 I spoke to my two bosses in psychiatry and on the research unit. So even after I began my study, the research unit director used to joke that people in the study room were smoking mushrooms. That they wouldn't want to study one of the most profound experiences that's available to human beings. You know, once I got my funding and my permits, which was a long process, it took two years,

1:10:12 one of the divisions of the National Institutes of Health. I mean, without knowing much about it, you hear that someone's a Mason, That doesn't sound like a strange coincidence. committee for the Scottish Rite Foundation for Schizophrenia Research. And he said, if you could submit a grant to them that focuses on DMT and schizophrenia, And there's Christian religions in America, right?

1:13:27 the way I did it. Just, you know, fill out the forms and, you know, talk to the regulators and So they got caught with it. Right. Are you familiar with what they're doing in Oregon? Holy shit. and they're doing it. banks didn't want to get involved. happening in Oregon. It's supposed to all be in place by January 1st. trip and they maybe should have some research and how to help people that have had bad trips

1:18:31 normal i was driving to work normal i was doing it but everything felt slippery like everything anymore so you don't have any thoughts while you're over there it's we it's the weirdest experience it's all white it's like just this white out yeah it's I've seen people use 5-methoxy addictively, habitually. so often, that he said the entity I mean, let's take a break.

1:20:56 do they live in your mind? And I just say stop smoking DMT. You think you've got a great grip on reality? elevated level of weirdness and anxiety forever, like this is life now. It was a close call, I think. schizophrenics? Or is it elevated? Like what's happening? Well, if you're kind of prone to to anything. To anything. Yeah. Well, you're talking about that bad trip that just lingered.

1:24:18 The way it affected me, it was like a real, like a peeling of layers of bullshit of who I am. I just did normal stuff until it all came back to normal. It was really, it wasn't bad, but it wasn't good. Those are classic stories. have somebody to get it off my chest with did you feel like you were dead did you feel like when you Yeah, it was different.

1:26:51 Yeah. And they were up to no good and at the same time you know they were beckoning and i just didn't know what to Like the NN. Shirley Temple. My first entity contact was on 5MEO. Well, I think you're changing your ability to perceive things that are normally invisible. valuable information for yourself or for other people. Now, when you first started doing these studies, how did you devise a protocol? How did you figure out what the dosage was going to be

1:30:55 neuroendocrinological probe. It was a psychopharmacology study. What is that like? Well, good question. And I did bring in someone to receive a test dose of How did you phrase it? I mean, it was an amazing stretch there. doing it intravenously, how did you figure out how much to give people to have the through smoking from coughing or the room starts breaking up and you're kind of losing your

1:35:41 Do people snort it? But you can't crush the freebase up and snort that, could you? Yeah, the Amazonian psychedelic snuffs. But if that was the only way you could get to reach the spirit realm, you'd do it. exist down there. He hadn't been high in like two years. He was really proud of himself, and then he got stoned in your show. years old that's a long fucking time ago. And they keep finding

1:39:17 and then we rebuilt back again with a bunch of shit that we didn't understand So, you know, James believed that up until a certain point Yeah, there's no, you know, there's no hard, you know, there's no hard evidence of the brain Right. You know, these compounds, you know, psychedelics stimulate the growth of new neurons, Yeah, we can get some of that.

1:42:17 It makes you have a better ability to see motion, right? that the people on psilocybin could see it way quicker? I mean, we'll keep you off camera. time, too. as things get safer and easier, you get less of a concern and a fear of danger. That's normal for them. so long. Yeah. It would have to be. And so to dismiss it as being what happened, I don't think that's wise.

1:47:26 gateway to some either state of mind or some other dimension. And if you gave that to some savage proto-hominid that was just living naked, running away from jaguars all the time, Well, towards increasing civilization, towards language, and what were the steps to get people to not have access to that information anymore not not be those that used mushrooms probably and those who didn't.

1:50:03 the benefits of it it's just amazing that it's taken so long to just get one state to make it legal well Like there was a lot of fear that was attached to that. But there's also going to be an understanding that whatever that stuff does Yeah, yeah. Yeah. make it so that I can get locked in a cage because I want to do something that you haven't done.

1:53:44 Then it is to tell people not to do drugs. The guy telling you he's going to put you in a cage for mushrooms is never the good guy. I don't think they should have any say. the idea of there being recreational use I've heard that there's some real success in doing that. as opposed to just within the research communities. tension and whatever he had that might have been weighing him down.

1:56:50 You know, I mean, they— Yeah. and even if you look at psychedelics as being a medication, Well, the intensity of the pharmacological effect, if it's really like chemotherapy, I mean it can end the cancer, but it's just rife with toxicity too. Or a researcher or a therapist who says get better. that out, though, and the way they did is just experiment on people.

1:59:42 I even tracked down the old MKUltra files. And at the end of it, he's got very convincing arguments that Charles Manson was a part of MKUltra. Because the drugs increase suggestibility, and depending on your environment, The book is wild because Tom is very thoroughly researched. They were doing Operation Midnight Climax there too Yeah. And there is talk of LSD, obviously, with his group and beforehand some. But I don't remember him mentioning the MKUltra connection. That must be pretty recent.

2:03:12 You know, he broke his parole. Well, that's the reason now you need what's like an airtight Yeah, yeah. Just released today. Yeah. The longest chapter in there is How to Trip. Your own voice. I like it when they do it. It was a fun book to write. That's good risk. because they had already been dating them. Yeah. And I figured, well, you know, things are pretty easy so far. Let's go up three times.

2:07:34 So then we settled on a pretty stiff dose. Well, like your story of THC? experiences on ayahuasca before I've heard of people So including your thoughts and my thoughts and that we're all just, we can link up. and it would be what people would be looking for, on a worldwide level. Like a language that everybody picks up pretty easily. I think we're going right into cyborg land.

2:12:21 You're going to get spam texts in your brain. I get like four or five spam text messages a day. Well, I think you need to stay out of That is a really fucking cool movie. Palmer Eldridge. And it's they're both these huge corporations and you go into her house So I think there's going to be this competition. depending upon what stage it's at. is if they figure out some sort of a digital currency, force people into a centralized

2:16:32 like more in awe and wonder about this whole thing, Nature is almost like the ultimate set and setting. Oh, yeah. Have you seen anybody fall, like black out and fall down on it? Oh, no. Oh, that's so dumb. Oh, really? It's going to take you with it. Just relax just relax yeah and maybe that's what was going on maybe he was uh under professional supervision by people with experience in them,

2:20:24 You get to learn. You get certified in proper use. know to get it this is the right dosage don't fuck around and enjoy yourself like you could learn You know, the great thing about psychedelics is they extend their reach into everything that's distinctly human. if you were the guy they came to. That's a trick question. It's complicated, yeah. Gosh, you know, it's like a multi-pronged approach. I mean education and organizations and have to get the church on board.

2:23:28 sit in a chair and, uh, there's, you know, somebody leading the ceremony. would be a fascinating people study well, they're being studied. You could study these people and study the effect. The kids are healthier and less drug abuse, less alcoholism, less depression, better quality of life. Do they have certain passages that they recite while they trip or before they trip?

2:26:00 But did they come back? that you're kind of giving the psychedelics within, Yeah, you know, being charitable, doing good, things like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you have some food, it will kind of buffer things. Yeah, yeah, and then everybody gets in line, Right. you know i hope he gives me a lot because i'm like macho or whatever right yeah i can take it bro yeah if we did have legitimate psychedelic

2:30:13 Because it could get slippery. And even then, when you're screening people who participate in research studies, there's Like if you've got an allergy to a medication, you're screened out of getting that medication. that that year in high school pink floyd right uh pink floyd yeah yeah the crazy diamond yeah Yeah, even 10 years before. Well, what about for other things like psilocybin?

2:33:44 Hold that thought. So do you think it'll be like state to state? problem with cannabis and psilocybin. No matter what happens, if these towns make them legal, Yeah. And, you know, everywhere you go where people are eating dinner, they're drinking alcohol. I mean, it is legalized, even though it's a Schedule I drug. I don't think it should be like a prescription.

2:36:40 They'll just water down the dose or figure out a way to make too much money from it. I know. Because I'm doing research which indicates they can be given safely under medical use. Can't do it. Impossible. Well, you know, at the time I had more important matters at hand, like, you know, running my study. guided ketamine sessions Well, it sounds like he's describing the K-hole.

2:40:10 Yeah. You know, somebody I heard describe it as, you know, psychedelic heroin. That's what John Lilly used to do when he got into his float tank. And, you know, he was, I don't know, 70s, 80s. I mean, you only live once, right? Sometimes I get out of there. You should definitely try it. seeing reality because you're sort of Everything just sort of relaxes and softens.

2:42:39 Yeah, I pretty much do, too. So here's the ideas. Well, so I get stoned and I take a pen in hand on a pad of paper. You know, George Carlin had the opposite way of writing. you know that's part of being a quote-unquote professional right right you're not really Well, I think it has an effect clearly on short-term memory. Yeah, we're good? We're going to start right there.

2:46:24 That's interesting. That's interesting. in this little town between taos and santa fe called espanola really serious drug problems things like, how much money would it cost to fix that? Why didn't you fix if you guys are really competent and you really wanted a better country? I don't want to go into pro wrestling. You get I'm not interested. I want to hear how they're looking at it.

2:49:38 of the psychedelic history of this country. understand understood rather to be something that has been used by human beings for a long time Yeah, like I haven't looked carefully into his thinking, but as I understand it, he points to it being a very old compound, a very ancient compound that had occurred, you know, very early on in evolution. when it lays out this grid, they understand that there were structures there, but they don't exactly know what these cities were because that lidar stuff when it lays out this grid they understand that there were structures there but they don't know

2:52:42 insane structures like the whole lost city of z you know in the right circumstances, psychedelics enhance sociability, right? And empathy and compassion and those kinds of virtuous characteristics. Yeah, you know, so it may have been a part of their society. I'm not that familiar. It's a Mayan phenomenon. When you go to Chichen Itza, and then they said you can't walk up it anymore.

2:54:44 Somebody fucked it up. Yeah. yeah yeah it's probably tiktokers it's always shaking their ass up there we got like, these are incredible structures. buildings on some of those. That's entirely possible, right? What do you think led to them Was it Montezuma that did it? but it was something really crazy like that. But historians and archaeologists knew that the conquistadors were prone to

2:57:47 I don't want to say it either. I'm going to fuck it up. Is that a pyramid, the Pyramid of Tenochtitlan? completion like why do these cultures believe in these mass sacrifices like that like what do you part of the world and a really rough time in history. Well, you interviewed that guy, And now that they have, like, physical evidence of these vessels that has trace elements of this psychedelic compound,

3:00:57 and made them more devoted to those ideas that's interesting yeah i know. I mean, we'd have to like find the origin of all of their ideas because it was such a incredible time period for people thinking things through and communicating and devising ways to live and saying things that to this day people quote as wise words. but it doesn't necessarily explain the broader phenomenon of the prophetic state,

3:02:40 the manna has got a lysergic acid ingredient, You know, but the whole presence of endogenous DMT kind of makes it moot whether or not people took, said you can get pretty damn close with yoga. in it? How do you do it? Oh, yeah. Your hands spasm? It just depends. Yeah. Really? Can people overdose? Yeah. once psychedelics were scheduled and all human research ended,

3:08:07 You know, it was going around. I'm just real curious. Yeah. Like that they figured that out in the jungle. Wow. They said that about acacia. they're they have senses some weird senses well and there are stories of animals getting You know, in New Mexico, probably. I only got a couple of leaves at a time. Really? The chewing coca leaves is fascinating, too, because so many people think that there's actually a health benefit to chewing coca leaves.

3:12:56 cathinone molecule and you come up with bath salts, more or less. And people would buy it and just kill each other on it. Delta 9. And I think it got knocked down. you guys were doing with IVs, how long was the drip and could you have prolonged that experience Right. you know, we spaced injections every half hour and there'd be a real progression of the effects over the course of the morning.

3:16:34 So when you say processing, like explaining what you saw, talking about it? Usually they'd be exhausted after the third dose, like I can't do anymore, Wow. would you allow them to do dose four? Or would you have to have a conversation with them? Well, you know, stressed or uncertain as what's next. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. line between whether you push someone to keep going or whether you'd say let's take a break yeah yeah uh yeah i mean safety first yeah for sure um could you imagine a world where there are places that would take care of people the way your studies were run that would do it that way

3:20:06 But yeah. Vet care. People got to realize that this is not a left or right issue. Worst case scenario. wasn't just your brain, Sort of. you're floating in some super serum. Stimulate different parts of the brain. Well, you've read that, what's it called? I don't think they're stopping us. I forget what year it was but And you have this experience where you're in the ocean, and a whale swims by you.

3:24:33 20 years from now, detach you from reality won't it a hundred percent yeah yeah so what's the point of that Why would you live regular life when it's indistinguishable from regular life Well, those reservations were the places where mixed martial arts first thrived in California. So Native American reservations have a history of, like, Native population, but still it's established and protected. That's the reason for the religious

3:27:51 The UDV, like I mentioned, is kind of straight-laced. Wow. You know, I'm not super familiar with that literature. Four hours. Your book, The Psychedelic Handbook, is available right now. I enjoyed talking to you, man. Yeah. Thank you.