Joe Rogan Experience #1858 — Josh Dubin & Derrick Hamilton Transcript

Transcript

0:00 The Joe Rogan Experience. Man, it's hard to introduce the unintroducible. So this is Derek Hamilton, who has been regarded by the New Yorker as the most prolific jailhouse lawyer that ever lived. He's a force of fucking nature. So we were on the opposite sides of the negotiating table. But they start when they're in high school. on innocence cases. And I said, you know, I need somebody that can really connect with these people because I have sympathy for the way they grew up, for the conditions that they were born into, for the opportunities that they didn't have.

4:37 together. And to watch Derek and to know his story, I knew right away that he'd be able to connect with them, wrong analogy, but I've just never witnessed anything like it. So I'm on the verge of starting And I mean, I'll let him tell his story and what he's been through I was a 17-year-old kid running around Brooklyn at a time when Brooklyn was terrible. happened to you? Well, thanks for having me. And Josh, thanks for the accolades. You know,

8:35 I'm like, murder? The police made me lie in the grand jury and say that I seen this guy. as evidence in chief at my trial, and I would forfeit my right to confront the witness and I was convicted. In 1987, the Appellate Division in that case found that the judge had no evidence whatsoever that me or anybody acting on my behalf had threatened this witness, did anything improper.

11:11 happened? I went to New York. I was processed. About a year later, I went to trial. I was But in any event, the ballistics evidence proved that this guy was shot with two different guns, that he wasn't shot in the building where she said he was shot at, but he was shot outside in the street. trial, right? They called her back. And she admitted that she never saw the crime, that the

13:06 The detective came in and said exactly what the witness said, In fact, she said the truth, which she didn't see the crime, that she was somewhere else. I did everything you could imagine to prove my innocence, but to no avail. I don't care what you say. I don't know what you're doing here all these years. borrowing us. They're not looking at our cases, just kicking it into the garbage. We don't

15:51 So he got in, and in two years, he has honored 22 people. which this cop framed another guy by the name of David Ranta. And I was exonerated in 2015. You got to reach the merits of it. I was at on the day and the time you cast his murder. The court was just throwing that I was in prison, man. You're from the same neighborhoods. So it's a small minority of people that's in the law library

19:03 law librarian and the first test i got was a 44 and he said look man I'm not gonna waste my Derek, what kind of repercussions are there for cops that do things like this? He gets away. What's his name? I didn't believe that. How does a guy not just get locked up immediately for that? lawyers standing with him all the time trying to protect his rights. And he don't remember anything now.

22:25 One, you know, if you, like Derek and I were at Sing Sing And I mean, look at this beautiful man, how articulate and bright and he's prolific in what he does. And he said to me something interesting. Called me the other day case right now we just filed post-conviction motions on his behalf so we called paulie in Each month she gave him a murder and one murder. She says she looked through the peephole and saw the guy shoot. There was no peephole on the door.

25:54 And on a cigar website, he said the first time he smoked a cigar was when that lying crackhead whore got a conviction. He was talking about Teresa Gomez. They knew she was a liar. They knew that she would lie on people. limitations when someone puts someone in jail for the rest of their fucking life and and also it. And if you don't start paying attention to the people that we are putting in positions of power, it is human nature that this will keep happening. The mammals that we are, we're hardwired to abuse

28:18 right. Until we can get out of this tribal mentality of either us, them, those, we're going to keep on seeing this happen. And it's bad and it's dangerous. I call it like I see it. The reason I was critical of gonna has their backup already ron desantis all right what he did in orlando was so fucking the victims of rape, you know, who are doctors who are trying to help the victims of rape. I don't,

30:58 Watch this. The statute criminalizing weed in Florida is section 893.03. We're going to prosecute according to this county ordinance. He didn't do that. a democrat a libertarian if you don't look at that fact and say there's something really wrong there, something wrong. And instead of meeting with me, turned his back on me and walked out. Because he's—you would have to ask him.

35:19 will take up this cause. I don't know what it is. It's something stops in people. And they say, for someone else, or being a leader, that's for someone else. A lot of it is just sort of getting You really did. In Rikers Island, you wake up 5 o'clock in the morning, you go to court. railroad me, I was going to have objection. I was going to say, Your Honor, may I address the court,

38:02 to be able to take on a judge, to take on a prosecutor, to take on my defense attorney if they was wrong. And that was my thing. When I went in that I used to call the judge chambers and act like I was somebody in the mayor's office and say, why are you doing this to me? they're all amongst party lines, they all hang out together. processes at different times. When I first began, the fortunate thing for guys in New York,

39:53 One of the things I did was I read the criminal procedure law from front to back, going to do that. Well, wait, can you explain for the listeners and for, I think Joe knows now, but what that means to be in the special housing unit? I mean, it's a very, very toxic environment for the prison guards and prisons alike. And I did 10 years in there. never let go definitely i mean i had no choice i mean sometimes you put positions uh that you

42:39 Richard Rosario was a part of that team. do it that the killer was nelson cruz but why would he do that you know one of the things i I witnessed this. caught dementia. Sean to change the 11th Amendment. I mean, everybody, look, if you can go after Donald Trump, something so it's okay? Like, what's the mindset that allows a cop to do something like that?

45:29 they'll score points by cheating. Because you're taught as a kid, cops are here to serve and protect you. And it's a messy stew. And I want her to get out, of course, more than anyone. And they examined this from every angle. and B, get a disproportionate sentence. And if anybody is interested in the report, You know, and you cannot look at these statistics and not be outraged and say, OK, we have a problem here in this country.

51:23 I mean, a lot of this shit is He is the jerk at work. You know, everybody has that person that is just an asshole at work and is always telling on people and causing a fucking problem and looking to be difficult. give me a clemency hearing of her clemency team. I'm supporting her because I'm, you know, something that I'm interested in, I think she then became a prosecutor.

54:33 illinois you're 43 times more likely to be arrested if you're black and caught with weed They get in a room and they sit there with a pen and paper and they come up with a law and then we It's systemic racism. the judge told me that he's going to deny your motion no matter what we do. And I says, well, she's a liar. recognize crack cocaine versus regular cocaine there's a far greater sentence for crack cocaine

57:31 And thank you, Bill Clinton and Joe Biden and a whole score of other Democrats that You know, I don't think there's any silver lining to a life that has been damaged the way Derek's life has been damaged. talk too much about his innocence case, but he has been called by the press the poster child Derek was forced into the opportunity I told him I did a day in jail I was a fucking puddle I was a

1:01:02 when I was in the hole. You'd have someone next to getting at how do you summon the strength to be able to overcome. And if people like him can genuinely want to see people do well. And it's like, I was telling Derek that about you. It's around people that are kind and people that are generous because you know that feeling you get That's a terrible place to be.

1:04:25 needs some help, that is a great feeling. And if we don't look at it that way, we're always going to be stuck in this lonely, sad position that it comes with security, too. prison and you're hearing this, you can be like Derek. one of the things we know and I'm gonna say we and I'm talking about as black I'm the first person to tell you that I had fantasies of killing the cop. I had fantasies

1:07:35 program that I went to when I was in prison called Challenge the Change. I went to the program solely And I was telling her for 21 years I was coming home. How do you deal with that? It was a church bell that used to ring in Auburn correction facility and the first thing I did when I went out was found that church What's the name? and I'm moving so fast I almost got hit by a fucking car coming across the street.

1:09:54 and just have a moment with my kids, man, Being on this podcast is the best example because I don't think we would have got the two exonerations in Kansas without the attention. it and has now funded it. And we need, you know, donations always help because the more resources you have, the more attorneys you can hire. But it needs the public awareness and then it needs to keep the drumbeat of pressure going the parole board's attention. Getting these stories out there work.

1:12:38 And here's a guy where they look at, you know, things that he has done in the past. that are sitting there smoking weed, getting in their car and blowing up another car in a family. power and i am going to tell you this is not okay and i've had my life threatened i have had my this happened to you you me Derek Now I'm gonna use my voice to try to empower other people.

1:16:34 You know, sometimes you're afraid of the backlash. You know, I remember like there were, there were certain things about marrying within your religious faith. And I remember the first I'm more Catholic than I am I don't know even why I think this. Other than young black guys that were selling, that were selling these key. they had nowhere to go for Thanksgiving.

1:19:34 and he's like, I smoked something called the cryptos with them. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, there's moments in your There's so many of these cases running around in every state. How does that work? This is a problem with our criminal justice system. They have procedural bars. right? When they don't have laws like this, it gives an exception to judges excuse to say,

1:22:22 Right. It happened in the Supreme Court recently. that President Obama, that said innocence doesn't matter. He wrote, Kavanaugh wrote the opinion. if you are time barred to file your claim, that we cannot let innocence get in the way of the rules of criminal procedure. Can you explain time barred? So time because there's compelling evidence of their innocence does not mean that we are going to

1:25:22 and the feds, if you're a state prisoner coming to the feds So when you raise a habeas or a habe, it's often referred to petition, you're basically throwing everything against the wall and saying, please look at the merits of the case. of it. But what they basically was ruling on in this case, the Ninth Circuit had reversed the case In that case, the lawyers chose ineffective assistance of counsel because they said this evidence always

1:28:19 So the way people should fact check and vet is to read the Supreme Court decision. And we'll give you the citation. Clemency is going to be a big part of our clinic. She's been in New York prisons over 30 years. She can't get clemency and she see New York prisoners the murder are home. Those guys Has every degree you can think of. people. This is the whole idea behind prison, right it's not I mean if someone goes to jail for

1:31:15 But a lot of times it'd be hype. What it is, oh, we lied, we lied. lying to them. So that's another whole topic in most situations, they're not going to be held accountable. And you've asked this question before, I'm not. Okay. I thought that would solve a lot of abortion issues, probably eliminate thousands of abortions. or you are putting a device in a woman

1:35:55 So I am not a Democrat or a – it just doesn't make any sense. That's who he got a letter from. Why would Kamala Harris do that? Dan Crenshaw. they're afraid of the political cost of admitting a mistake. I'm so turned off by it, business. It is. You gotta constantly be asking people for money. Yeah. And, you know, then you end up, you know, serving many masters.

1:40:03 making, you know, why don't you pick your, we've talked about this before, pick yourself up by your bootstraps and titer the excuses, all that. willing as a society to say, you know, like I hear from friends of mine, look at the Jews, Right? I can get a ticket today We spoke to the last commissioner in New York City. Right. Somebody's going to jump out and shoot you. Right. You've got to train the way, change the way that you train people.

1:42:49 by institutions. They don't have the balls to be their own men. I don't always feel strong. you know, It's like, It's weird because our families don't know each other and we've talked about it. don't think it's strength. I think that it's more out of anger and being pissed off that people think in a way that represents a herd mentality. And that's why you and I are brothers.

1:46:01 And the fact that they can't see that is just, it just shows that even on the right side of and how important it is to have someone like yourself It's more important than anything. If we have a culture that not only allows people to be imprisoned, and that's an incredibly noble and brave and honorable and loving perspective. but the feeling of, you know, I just know, I've said it before that the feeling of restoring

1:49:04 You remember Walter Swift? And I was with Barry Sheck at dinner, one of the founders of the Innocence Project. He was. he was the only guy that would... and this and that and i told him i was just getting involved in the innocence project And like two months later, Mr. Stewart? Asking for pictures with him. And the judge, before she started the hearing, she took the bench and she said,

1:52:51 with all his stuff in it And he would steal from Emanuel. He would come over and smoke weed in his bathroom And like right up until right before Emmanuelmanuel died he would ask how's Walter doing to help that probably helped a little i think psychedelics would really help I'm doing the same thing. We didn't get a chance to see him. To walk that guy out after 44 years in Angola.

1:56:47 Person because you knew that you could do that now you knew you could become this incredibly knowledgeable lawyer now absolutely Yes. I said, Google him. it with what, what, what are the Ivy leaguers say with a plum? He, he knows what the fuck he's doing of our Legal Justice Center, you mentioned it earlier. You got to make a decision as a human being is what do you believe in terms of the ability to forgive and give a second chance?

2:00:25 during apartheid. That says terrible things about who we are as a culture. Are we trying to rehabilitate and send people back into society to be productive members of society? Or do we want to Prison industrial complex. You know, and that's in every state. characters in it whatsoever. But I think they both kind of marry each other because whether state ran or private ran, the deprivations are the same.

2:02:13 You're doing it to survive, right? It's industries in the prison that make money for corporations, If they're giving you $1,500 If I write this guy up and say he punched me in the face, it's the industry it's it's a money-making machine and nobody want to industry out here in society making license plates. There's none. There's none. abolished rather, one of the first things they did was go out and arrest people and force them to work for slave

2:05:04 That's exactly what it was and he just kept modernizing it. Yeah. I mean, it was literally founded off of slavery. That's exactly what it was. Right. You can't put a Band-Aid right on a wound that needs a stitch. Absolutely. Yourself up by your bootstraps. Yes, like you have people that are growing up in a neighborhood that you couldn't comprehend And if we don't concentrate on that, we spend $40 billion to Ukraine. We spend billions of dollars for all sorts of military programs that many of us don't agree with,

2:07:30 He, we were part of the same criminal justice reform group. Van Jones? So I don't know where he went, but think about this. Willie Simmons. fucking office they increased the budget for police and the way they did it was to cut it out from libraries, I don't care that you're not a law student, you're not a lawyer. And, you know, Roc Nation and Donya Diaz and these folks at Roc Nation that empower these kids, they're not out there looking for like a story about it.

2:11:15 One of them is a dancer. My namesake, Joshua. You know, it's like I was in an airport going to Greece a couple of weeks ago. and he was telling me about how he's going to college. And he's like, I don't really know. it you know i marvel at everything i marvel at the lights i see i marvel at the person that made this Legislators are just people that decided to run for office and write laws.

2:14:52 Last two years, we got three people out, one lawyer. have to take action. While I'm here, formerly incarcerated people. We just take enough of us. One of the things that kept me going was the Magna Carta. the people can get a militia to revolt. Well, will you agree with them people or not if they believe and do something about it. If not, then you're a victim. I don't want to be a victim. I believe

2:18:00 Yes. There's people that are on record that they 100% got that they know most So you have – is your point, Joe, that you should be going after – if you're going to go after the people that actually were revved up to do it, you should actually go after the people that revved them up? They convinced him to use this cellular phone to activate this device that didn't even work.

2:19:53 They built this case around getting this guy to plant this bomb and ignite this bomb that doesn't even work. What the fuck is that? There's a lot of those cases. I don't understand it. It's a kangaroo court. He's getting suspended. They're going to affirm it. That's going to happen. So, you know, if you were a Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, if you just believe in America,

2:22:34 Right? consequences of abandoning who they think other people should think they support. You know, I have a cousin whose children have We try to teach them a little bit about everything and say, you make the decision. Is it a feeling that you get? You know, we all have that moment where This summer in the Family and Friends Organization, we had summer youth, right?

2:25:29 examiner to determine if the way the kid was hit could create those you know those injuries one coming one day, and I say to them, You would never think the kids in Brownsville Right? Since she was a kid, I told her she got freedom of speech. And I feel like, you know, I've heard this before. that's what I try to do. I don't know what, I don't know any other way to do it because none

2:28:29 The Orthodox, right? They believe in blood splatter. You own guns and shoot guns. John Scarpa has the ballistics expert on the stand, shell casings lead me to believe that they came from the same gun. And he came up with all the He said at least two. The way they were ejected from the firearm? Do you agree with that? Here's what makes it really hard to swallow.

2:32:53 and you find two shell casings and two bullet fragments, to introduce the possibility that two guns were used in a crime, over it's game over and this is because they're they don. Yeah, they don't know. Listen, you know, bite mark evidence And it was proven to be such junk science How was it born on the Salem? So there was a there was a a case of a guy

2:36:29 They ended up finding out that this man was not only innocent, he was in jail in another town when these crimes were committed. So everything that we knew about forensic science and it's honorated by Brandon Mayfield And these are the sciences that we indoctrinated to believe. They thought that they were gonna get rid of witches. Around that? Yeah. No, I'm not ergot

2:39:28 There's some dispute about this, but there's no dispute about whether or not there was when people have consumed ergot they have these horrific unexpected psychedelic And it's happened with everything from fingerprints to blood spatter to bite mark impressions Yes. The Florida Department of Law Enforcement and an independent agency deemed that she had

2:43:38 It creates confirmation bias. their career and good for their record, that's a point. They want it back. It's confidential. The Staircase, where the guy Peterson was accused of pushing his wife down the stairs. There's 100% something to it. He saw blood squirt out of his arm, and he started panicking, and he fainted. Before the documentary came out.

2:47:02 You should check out his book. It happens all the fucking time. Why would a guy push his wife down the stairs? They're fucking ruthless predators with a brain the size of your thumb. It's a ruthless predator. There's blood outside the house. when they were out by the pool the bad luck you have That's more probable than somehow being a witness to six murders.

2:49:23 About the most notorious jailhouse snitch in history named Paul Skelnick. I killed this girl. What do you think about that? You read that story. A call to action for your and for every Clemente, for every case like Derek, for every case that you get out, that it's not right. you know, I just picked a jury in a case that is not so sensational but for the media. It was one of the so-called Varsity Blues cases.

2:52:22 All right. getting people into the school is to look at their aptitude for philanthropy. Are they from of dollars a year. They were allowed to get tips? It might have tax implications, here's somebody whose freedom is on the line, and I am forced to rush. Can I ask a question? I read that like the woman from Full House brought, I said, okay, given that my client

2:55:56 And I said, isn't it fair then to say that this might not be the case for you? She said, you know, The guy got acquitted and it was the only Varsity Blues case where there was an acquittal. to stand up to the judge and say you're one of the things they said about Brittany Griner. Yep, it is. just the millions of people that are going to listen to us talk here it's uh it's going to

2:59:14 Sign the petition. but a great place to start would be the Midwest Innocence Project. The Midwest Innocence Project, Well, when you guys can announce, please come back. Thank you, everybody.