Joe Rogan Experience #1863 — Mark Zuckerberg Transcript

Transcript

0:00 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! we're going to be talking about it at our Connect conference When I moved my eyes left and right, it's tracking my eyes. How do you get the sensation of actually being present um, your avatar, it's not just like this still thing. Um, but if you smile or if you frown, camera, you're, you know, you're looking up and if you look at the, you if you look down at the actual screen,

3:12 some information, you can see their face. But the whole time you're kind of trying to convince your or break it. That each time we do a new version, we just try to break down a few more of the And there was this whole thing that was super interesting there cases where your hands were here and we'd sort of guess that your your arm was like that or real sense of presence? You're there with another person no matter where you actually are.

6:34 Or do you think that it can get to the point where it can mimic the movements of your body accurately But I want to design this in a way where you don't need that. Eventually, you'll be able to do it without even having controllers. people are going to just want to have versions of this that they can bring around. And whether it's on an airplane, or you're doing work at the office, or you're going to a coffee shop,

8:30 There's a lot of new technology that we've researched that goes into that. you're looking at a thing. And basically, you're looking at like all the pixels that are on the And there's this big debate right now where a lot of the research is going into what is the right way to basically create the deal hologram cards and you could have your glasses and physical you there could pick up

11:15 But most entertainment type stuff, I mean, not just cards, but games, most media, TVs in the future probably won't need to actually be physical things. but so yeah so you'll eventually be able to kind of have that all come through um through these ar do they exist already? normal looking glasses that can kind of have all of these, have holograms, make it so you can

13:35 and then translate that in real time into stereo images so different images in both eyes so that So that's one direction that I think that the industry is exploring. even if we can't get the form factor right? and take videos and you can post them to Instagram. I want to make sure I don't get the spec wrong So whenever there, yeah. And I think if you put a piece of tape over it, it would probably interfere with the camera.

16:58 They're this great Italian company and the collaboration has been awesome so far. So I'm and you'll get the kind of form factor, gaming is use case number one for for vr but then pretty It's going from games first, games are still growing and going to be huge to just kind of mean, it's like, I just like, I hate sitting in front of a desk, right? It's like, I just feel like if I'm not like active, I'm, I'm like wasting my day. So I don't know,

20:02 I thought that was pretty wild. I thought that in the long term something like that would start to happen, It's really good cardio. Yeah. Are they capable of having two people? We had had a fencing match today you and i did yeah which is because we haven't released the new device yet. I do Thrill the Fight and I really like Creed, if you could figure out how to do a Muay Thai mode where the only problem would be things change when you make contact with stuff. Yeah. Things change in terms of like positioning and movement

23:15 because everything is going to be taking place in your mind? But, like, I just feel like my whole energy level and mood and kind of how I kind of interact with the world is all just based on, it's like's it's so physical right it's not just you know so i don't i mean So what I'm thinking is if technology advances and it keeps going further in the direction that it's headed now, more immersive, more convincing, you know, that uncanny valley gets bridged and all of a sudden you have a real life experience.

25:25 Well, you could go there with your Oculus. right now, but neither one of us be in this room. Yeah, I think the nature of technology is that, more things really well and i would guess that there will be other technologies or other things will advance in the world that will prevent any one thing from ever subsuming everything else. Yeah. really realistic simulation is probably pretty low.

28:24 Now the mobile networks are good enough that it's starting to be a lot more video. opportunities, that would be awesome. So in the future where you can just use AR, VR and teleport be able to do all of the things that you can do, of in person with a person, but you'll just be able to do more and more. Yeah. feeling a sense of presence is pretty important.

31:54 Yeah, no, and I agree with that too. Our company is actually pretty forward leaning on remote work. It's like I just like lost my flow. If she's talking and I have an idea, I'll just run away. last couple of years with COVID and just kind of rethinking the way that stuff has worked. I think I think if you can give people the ability to get their kind of fluid state, like flow state work remotely, but then also just be able to kind of in a second teleport to a

34:43 because you can kind of miss some of those casual downtime moments, of, I do standup comedy. during the pandemic and it was awful It's super awkward just doing public speaking But comedy is a different thing. So there's this woman who basically lost her son and was really sad and was grieving for a while. And comedy was My friend Brian Redband, he does this thing called Virtual Redband,

37:30 because I think that that you showed me today, That's moving into this much more realistic sort of place where I could imagine a lot of people just deciding like today I'm going because now, you know, it's every meeting that you have looks the same, right? They're like, and also there's actually convinced that even when we have photorealistic avatars, that people are going to prefer that to the expressive ones.

40:21 of the most exciting work that I've gotten to do in a while because I just feel like building social experiences on phones is so constrained. okay, well, what does it look like a platform that was designed around apps. You'd build it where the fundamental unit of how you billion on all of these different research streams. But the breadth of this is just

42:30 And we haven't even gotten to neural interfaces yet, Like you're physically there with another person, which I just think is the most magical thing in There's sort of there's feedback that you're giving to the computer and then there's information that the computer gives to you. brain for fun is my guess. I don't want to be an early adopter. Yeah, I think you want like the

44:45 One of them is going to be voice, right? You'll be able to talk to it, but that's not, that doesn't always work, right? Yeah. I mean, I think at some basic level, if you can get past that just being weird, I think most people's hands will just get tired, right? I mean, if you ever, I mean, I think at some basic level, if you can get past that just being weird, I think most people's hands will just get tired.

46:17 And part of the reason for that is, like, in case you get hurt, you have neuroplasticity, you can rewire, do stuff, like find a different pathway to kind of send a signal to move your finger or something. like having a virtual hand move in front of you Right. going to be looking at these AR glasses and just thinking out text messages and you won't,

48:33 but you want to ask one person. to make it so that people don't have to wait and you're going about that through your life, I think you like, you want some intelligence there about, you know, routing and kind of absorbed in social media and these kind of things that these kids do but I think it's a part of life They're always Snapchatting. information on the amount of calories that are if you pick up a food item like

52:01 things that you keep that you've said a few times is, okay, like, I'm not sure if I'd want to do But the ratio of that may be shifting over time, right? So in a world in the future where, But I mean, I think it's probably going to be a healthier for us, rather than consuming kind of all this additional context through this tiny little portal that we carry around on a phone, and you're just kind of like looking at this, and you're missing the whole context. I think to have it be able to be overlaid and, you know, have kind of people be able to, you know, pop in and interact with them through it. I think that's gonna be powerful. We'll obviously need to get the balance on this right, but it's, but I know that's sort of how

54:21 to be a bigger and bigger part of life. I wouldn't say my fear is, Me personally? I mean, Augie especially – I mean, she – Max max likes building things augie thinks about it as art so when i whenever like every you know every night i i try to do bedtime with But I don't know, these things, it's not... That to me is like the point. And that I think over time is what generally creates happiness

57:00 And especially as this technology improves, like netflix and youtube i think a giant amount of absolutely stuff is on phones uh it's a lot from exercise, like I wouldn't be that happy with from. If it's coming from sleep, that's probably not great, right? If it's coming from exercise, like I wouldn't be that happy with useful. But I don't necessarily want the people to spend more time with computers. I just want the time that people spend with screens to be better.

59:47 But I don't know, just sitting around watching, They were like, you're going to do well in school, and you're going to be on three varsity sports teams. I mean, they weren't very prescriptive. I mean, they didn't tell me I had to do computers. They didn't tell me which sports I going to do. So, and I'm super grateful for it. I mean, they weren't very

1:01:20 need to kind of pay attention to that day or, so it's, it's almost like every day you wake up and you're like punched in the stomach and then it's like, okay, well, fuck, now I need to kind of pay attention to that day or so it's it's almost of years, I've gotten really into things that require full focus. So, you know, at the beginning of COVID, I mentioned that I spent a bunch of time in Kauai. Our family has a ranch down there. And

1:02:33 My young daughter is really good at it, my 12-year-old. I tried it for about three hours, and I was like, oh, my God, this is awful. a pretty interesting learning curve, because things are ramping back up and where you can't afford to focus on something else. that's come in and, Yeah. and then basically since COVID it's like got super into surfing and foiling, then got really into MMA.

1:05:28 I know Dave. I mean, it really is the best sport. And that's been really fun because now it's like we train together and we just like wrestle together. That's very impressive that it's 100%. And then I noticed when I stopped doing that later, It's fun. Both things are important. It's just, it gets driven into your programming so that in the flow of an actual rolling session,

1:09:26 I do a lot of stuff like this with friends, It's really cool. I think one of the things that's sort of frustrating or running a company is like like a, swallowed? Right. So it's, um, I don't know. It's, I think that having that mix in your life Like the, like the, the building things, it's like, that's super engaging too. I'm like, could you imagine trying to manage at scale 5 billion people or whatever it is?

1:13:57 It's so preposterous. with just reacting to things that people are throwing at me, lives is carving out the time to do stuff that's proactive. And that's both taking care of yourself, right? of exploded over the last few years. So I agree with you 100% on that. Yeah. AI problem. It's not like this kind of general intelligence AI That's one of the things that I'm super passionate about right now.

1:18:52 I think it's really the thing that gets people with algorithms is that algorithms today have this negative connotation to them and people there's a lot of argument that algorithms cause dissent and cause arguments and The algorithms just highlight the things that you're interested in. It's not like the algorithms dividends. So I do think that these systems done well, if you design them with a long-term

1:21:52 with algorithms and with the use of social media, Twitter in particular, is that people are, on it and it's, it's the, the plus side of it is that you get all these people who are super witty I mean, so it's the design of the system, but one thing is I think images incentives of the news industry are often to, the most controversies around the more newsy type stuff, the more political type stuff. And over time, I mean, I've generally just felt like, hey, that's not even what

1:25:18 interested in this post and chose to give an angry reaction but we just don't want to amplify anger kind of think that there's a balance. Angry emoji face. because someone reacted to this, right? oftentimes in things that upset them. Do you, what do you think about the shows up at the top. So, okay, so what do you get? You get a bunch of businesses that want to make

1:28:37 And like that post better be at the top of my feed because I don't want to miss that. there's going to be a ton of people commenting congrats but at a simple level, you can kind of just look at who are the people who you care about around it, we should probably show that more prominently. So I think at a basic level, Or sort of how much engagement they make.

1:31:40 interested in it's such an immense. And the fact that it's a ramp up or suppress or amplify so many different ideas. And in turn, that can literally shape the that they want. And whenever we try to exert some kind of opinion that's different from what people is like a very competitive marketplace and our role in it is not to kind of imprint our Well, that goes back to managing at scale, right?

1:35:24 And I'm sure there has to be some pretty intense you have to get into the nuances this technology in a way that is agnostic and lets people express the interests and You know, it's probably the case that there would be more engagement on the platform if we didn't. believe different things and that those beliefs are probably grounded in real lived experiences

1:38:00 you know that there are foreign actors but promote certain ideologies or certain political agendas It's like, yeah, some of these policy acronyms But the Macedonian troll farms were basically a bunch of spammers I think we spend like $5 billion a year was the last stat on sort of all this community integrity work. You don't want terrorism or you don't want child pornography.

1:41:34 And then we end up taking down accounts that we weren't supposed to take down. in it and and the um that we we accidentally took down the this guy's page that we were talking I don't know how they found out that 19 of 20 were fake. And let's find out how you've come to this conclusion. we try to make sure that we know who the admin of that page is. We don't necessarily,

1:44:44 around that are, are are like are coming good guys is too high. realistic sense of presence. It's like, that's what I'm here to do, right? So this whole thing that's like arbitrating what is okay and in terms of safety or privacy or other human rights issues. And basically that board, although I don't spend a ton of my time election because of the Hunter Biden laptop story, the New York Post. Yeah, we had that too.

1:48:25 What Twitter did is they said, you can't share this at all. We didn't do that. What we do is So fewer people saw it than would have otherwise. So it definitely... By what percentage? then I want to take that seriously. I mean, evenly in that it's not suppressed. It's not. you don't want situations like that. But certainly much more reasonable than Twitter stance.

1:51:31 And I would imagine that those kinds of decisions are the most difficult. The decisions of like, the laptop was real and it was a legitimate story and there is potential corruption involved with him. We think, oh, that should not have been restricted. If something comes along and the Republicans How many of these pop up every day, don't know why certain things get censored or certain things get promoted.

1:54:45 be skeptical about any so much concentration around that. So that's why a lot of the innovation the thing up. And I think like setting up forms of governance around that are independent of us, We're not the Ministry of Truth for the world that's deciding whether everything is true or not. So there's something kind of different happening in the U.S.

1:57:14 as much as possible independent governance of how we deal with this. who have studied and thought that. But there might also be something about just the way that our governance is set up where, scientist, but I've obviously spent a little bit of time thinking about this because I think a lot of people want to point to social media as the primary cause of this.

2:00:52 time to immerse themselves with it. And I think it's, it's an unfortunate aspect of some people What is that? Get out of there. And you have to figure out time management and discipline. Now, if you want to spend all of your time going back and forth on Roe v. Wade on Twitter, world of just looking for things to complain about, it's one of the interesting questions is how do we balance now having access to like an

2:05:14 on, on, um, kind of broader issues and not, and if you don't, if you don't focus, I do know there's always tell them like, don't do that. Like it's really bad for you. Yeah. I struggle with this build something better right so yeah um and there is just a lot of negativity in it, like gets to you. Right. And and I think there's a question of balance where at what point are you kind of better off?

2:07:56 I think it's also important to establish an ethic where you communicate with people online the same way you communicate with them if they're in a room with you. you've got a new opponent. And what are are you doing? Like, well, that's a massive resource problem. Yeah. that there is some long-term value It's like something that matters in their life.

2:10:50 the specific people that you have relationships with? I mean, that's the appeal. That's why so and get people to like them based on the opinion they think is going to be the most likely And it just has to go viral. I'm a little more mixed on this. like I know where that person's coming from, right? In terms of their values and their life story. Now, there is a question about how people react to that.

2:14:36 But I think that this notion around filter bubbles and listen to differing opinions on things. Yeah. So there's a whole discipline around and like professional discipline around fact checking But what we tried to do was basically we give the fact checkers the basic guidelines to not focus on things that could be getting into stuff that's not as obviously black and white and a little more political.

2:18:30 I want to listen because it's so dumb. and that there's essentially light bulbs hung in the sky. No, you can share it. to believe is going to lead to any like physical safety issue for people. He wanted to have a moderated Twitter, of content moderation that the set a tone, You don't want like blatant intellectual property violations. You don't want terrorism. You don't want child pornography. You don't want like blatant intellectual property violations.

2:21:42 you know, as a technology company I think that a large percent of the population, the vast majority says that they don't want to see misinformation, but then people disagree on what misinformation is. But Twitter has pornography. I mean, they have hardcore pornography. You could just But like but I'd say our reason for not wanting pornography is more for the feel of the community than than than the than kind of the sense of harm.

2:24:21 and not necessarily coming across that kind of content. if an accredited fact checker said it might be false of their concerns, is people think they're being shadow banned. It's always people think they're being And then I think if there's like some history within a page So there are all these cases where we missed something that we should have taken down or we we enforced something that

2:27:26 something and it didn't like and it just didn't get the distribution that they wanted it to like some ideological bent or policy thing into this of kind of communicating. and that someone's censoring them. Yeah. languages where they're, it's like just, just yeah it's like hundreds of i think it's to you about is when you first started Facebook, What has that been like for you to assume this position and to have this position evolve and spread

2:31:11 No, I've spent a lot of time thinking about this. Yeah, you know. So I launched it, and I went to go get pizza with my friends. So we just kind of kept going. And, uh, I think a lot of people just kind of like wrote it off, right? It was this thing that, and people of all different ages started signing up and then the meme shifted from this is a a there were probably people who thought that this would be a cool thing to do and, and, and, and

2:34:59 So it's like the chance that someone can invent another one, that seems really low. if you think about like what what like elon's doing with rockets you know or like what we're different topics on your podcast, the, you know, the way you do comedy. But I don't know. I mean, But it was too late then. Right. it gets to this point where it's just so big.

2:38:15 getting smaller just keeps getting bigger yeah which is nuts like you're made like the most used service in the world and then it's like okay like once you're lucky but These were super early things when they joined us. building one, one great social experience to now building four. So really happy about all that stuff feeling of presence that you can have with another person. I mean, you're never going to feel a super

2:41:26 and I obviously care about that. our relationship where like it's like we were partners and now we also get to work together and you have like microscopes today and they can see stuff, over time to be able to kind of extrapolate from what you've seen in very high resolution in the So, I mean, that's the kind of project that we that we're doing in, in, on the philanthropy side.

2:45:15 like building up our ranch to be self-sustaining Well, I think what you're dealing with is you have so much success that you're comfortable I think that's amazing. And I think sometimes people are caught in that trap it's a real trap. I have a similar perspective in that I don't think about my show in terms of the way you sip water though. When you're sipping water in the Senate, you're sipping water like a robot. Let me see you take a real

2:48:22 I don't know. I mean, if you're And it's because those are the people I've chosen. listenership of the show, but to some degree, because you're following your breadth of things that we're working on that we talked about before. it's so hard to know what's real and what's not real. People value in authentic, they value And I think that applies to many, many, many things.

2:52:01 And how would I do it differently? would be the best choice to make? Well, the best choice to make is to actually follow your interests. It's pretty dope. And I'm so glad you're into martial arts now, too. some new crazy shit coming out Thank you.