Joe Rogan Experience #1869 — Dr. Gabor Maté Transcript

Transcript

0:00 The Joe Rogan Experience. This book, The Myth of Normal, this is your book. Yeah, I really am happy to be here with you. Thank you. My pleasure. This book, you'd say this is a toxic culture. and everybody's saying, what's going on here? or we get that there's something about this culture that's fomenting so much illness. I'm talking about its impact

2:24 It's all that. communally so that it wasn't just an isolated nuclear family or a isolated mother or father it and we don't pay attention to the child's emotional needs. You know, in the book I talk about my mom, and she says, my poor little Gabor, to ignore the child's distress for an hour and a half. Dr. Spock, I don't know if you remember the name,

5:38 Now, look at how hunter-gatherers raise their children. Now, my mother's heart was breaking. what does this have on the child? I'm going to take into account what the rest of the world says. Consciously, the child makes the assumption that there's something wrong with me. the infant assumes unconsciously what a psychologist friend of mine calls the irreducible needs of children. Irreducible

8:54 That's natural instinct. which is to be accepted as a person which we need to protect ourselves, These are circuits that nature, evolution has wired us with. Anger is not normal. If I enter your space in a way that threatens you, mental health issues and physical health issues. They do their best. Right. What can be done then? I'm in my 40s, which is how my family experiences me, including my young kids.

14:06 she handed me to the complete stranger in the street Now what message do I get? one of the things you can do is to go to medical school So we pass it on. but when our kids were small, we had a very tense marriage. And I have to start asking myself, triggered, I still can behave like I had never learned anything at all. Sometimes when you're When I'm not understood.

17:50 But when I'm not respected just for who I am as a person. And he talked about how you handle the negative vibes that come your way sometimes. That's a great one. That's a great one because it's physically exhausting. combination of both for me it's enjoyable i i love i look forward to stretching with my body in the I would say I was in my early 40s, early to mid 40s, I would say.

20:32 And I began to see the commonalities amongst people, So, and then, you know, eventually, like you, Close Encounters with Addiction, You know what the best letter I ever received was? i've ever got because i've been thanked quite often for saving people's lives but never for but they don't cause addiction as such. But there's no gene that causes any specific mental health illness, any specific addiction.

23:37 And the more sensitive you are, well we're just talking about addiction and genetics and whether or not you know when when Okay, there's a great example to refute that right here in the United States. You subject them to the extermination of the men in jail in Canada, 50% of the women in jail in Canada are indigenous people. sent to these residential schools where they were sexually, physically, emotionally abused.

26:26 by law, You know what the punishment was? They stuck a pin through her tongue. This was in the 1960s in Canada. 1950s, I'm what do you know about ayahuasca and the healing of addiction? I don't know anything about. and in half an hour I got, just open heartedness. and so we closed on our hearts. but also maybe experience the love that's underneath all that pain.

29:29 I'm going to help myself with this plant. metaphoric stories that he tells of this two strong men dragging a third man towards an abyss And I did a great job helping others. I flew to Peru to lead an ayahuasca retreat for physicians and healers and psychiatrists and psychologists, counselors from around the world. So we do the first ceremony, There's 24 of us.

33:01 happens. Next morning they send a delegation to me, our Icaros, our chants can penetrate you. They just feel it. or the books that I've published. So we want to help the others. haven't cleared it out of yourself and furthermore they said and you were very small we think you had You traumatized baby. you know, these people came all over the world to work with me. And now you're telling me I can't

35:55 Yeah. because they're like beyond words, you know? Yes, the world was a terrible place to be born into, in the world. and that even though you had had psychedelic experiences and even though you thought They concentrate on others instead of concentrating on themselves because it's kind of easier to fix other people's problems. and I knew how to work with people who had terrible experiences,

38:58 It's not one layer. So I kind of would have liked to have met me. Yeah, I hated the idea of weakness. i didn't even like the fact that i enjoyed or we can be better than everybody else. Yeah. and that it was a desire based on trying to acquire love and respect And it was, there's a lot. relatively small small part of what I do but it's it's a very cherished part of what I do

42:59 because you've had this experience yeah or you can comfortably and easily slip back into that old a deeply profound transformative option, us there much quicker yeah but you know it's sometimes it's even very frustrating because the person who drive me drove me this morning to your studio What did Ibogaine do for you? Iboga is the plant that is really good for PTSD.

45:30 who was doing a study on it. Yeah, it's not harming people. That's the thing it and researching it yeah it's not you know um dark and heavy how so sorry dark and heavy how so how did it feel dark and heavy I keep getting worried that we keep talking about psychedelics It was one of the deepest experiences of my whole life. It was beautiful. And it was this beautiful mountain and bison grazing in the field

48:38 and some of these other countries that have been occupied. It's one of the most devastating things in modern times, and it's not Yeah. Mm-hmm. learn from them you know and yet yet they have so much to teach. of conquerors in the way they being captured and killed is based on the fear of being conquered yourself or the fear of you know of you know that whether or not it exists in cultures is more common than not

51:43 So I do think that, and I do discuss this as well, That seems like... City, people stacked on top of each other and the indifference they show towards each other That's the real question. I don't know if you can answer this question, but I'd be curious. of others. Yes. Most of the times, I believe, at the expense of others and certainly at the expense of their own peace.

55:10 That's the title of the book. And you're happy and you're having friends. But then there's also this sort of inherent desire to achieve success. But that doesn't have to be at the expense Yeah. Corporate narcissism. which is going to kill them. and to manipulate the market, was not paying attention in class and it showed these kids like playing around and doing things

58:56 ADHD? profession and a lot of the so-called experts think about it as a disease. Another one of these so that you tend to act out whatever emotion arises. If I were to stress you right now, Yeah, then you're stuck. of energy filled with you know hormones and life and thoughts and things they enjoy and then you developed right in our brain this is the part that nobody taught me in medical

1:02:15 The child absorbs the stress. that's no longer working for you You want to help this child? Deal with the whole family. child changes what a surprise mmm but you go to most doctors you got this I took Ritalin, which I can tell you the story. So you at least assumed that you had that, didn't you? But not me. And again, it's not how I practice medicine.

1:04:54 Because you're calm. And I took that for a while. but it made me more focused and so on. The average physician never gets a single lecture on brain development, how the brain develops in interaction with the environment. but the diagnosis don't explain anything. Because think about it. poor impulse control and tunes out and he's hyperactive why is he hyperactive tunes that have

1:07:27 It drives me nuts because people pretend that anxiety is a disease. You're thinking about your life in a potentially devastating way. The world is the same, but the way you look at it is not the same, right? Yes. That's my point is that it's not a disease. They make the child be alone when the child is upset. and now you have a lot of anxious people.

1:10:22 because then they'll do it all the time? And it doesn't entrench kind of crying manipulative behavior. the child downloads that into his own nervous system, That bear cub has to be able to look after themselves in a mature, confident way. But when you don't pick kids up, Why does it happen? too much loving but loving that comes from a very anxious place.

1:14:04 You create them by imposing your own agenda on them, your own anxieties on them. If you're, you know, you've developed this, these patterns of thinking that are based on a mother that is incredibly anxious and scared of the world. There's got to be that recognition. Because they don't have confidence in their bodies. You can do somatic experiencing.

1:16:30 Yeah. on addiction. I, uh, I would shop for classical compact discs. You laugh, but some days I spend thousands of dollars, But did you think that that classical disc was going to go away? because if it was to the object, you would just go home and enjoy it. that dopamine hit, the pornographer, so they can feel really present and grounded. constantly pushing the boundaries of like what what he could get away with and he was free soloing these rock

1:20:40 you know there's no separation i'm grounded yeah totally focused i'm fully alive and just sticking his hands in these cracks of the walls And they're clearly addicted to that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, sure. No, not do-ving, diving. She died at age 53 in August 2015, freediving. When we think, we are separate. You know, but these people are serious meditators.

1:24:18 And so that we get separated from ourselves, real revelation, you realize like, oh, I'm fighting my own demons. These people are just, because you didn't accomplish what you wanted to accomplish. Please. Or even a taekwondo match, which I've never studied. You know, that's why we have divisions. competition you're supposed to be met with surmountable challenges things that you can

1:27:53 was in a human being. He wasn't like physically gifted. He wasn't much stronger than me or bigger Yeah. Big John, you think this boy's a hustler? But to go back to the idea of failure, so let me ask you this question. But nobody's going to be as good as him. that's running in a straight line as fast as you can yeah um someone has to be the best There's a great quote that I remember

1:30:31 It isn't so much that also, I get that, Yeah, well, it's also one of the things that's missing from our lives is physically difficult pursuits, and the people that can do incredible things? Of course not. point that of me at a certain point where I would be really focused on being is the loss of elders I mean traditional cultures would have elders and yes we don't talk about

1:33:38 Because they're active and involved in the community. Mm-hmm. and progress at the same time? I think it's possible. It's certainly possible. I mean, business of a corporation is to make am just one of these people I am just a manager of this region and I that's all He called me at home and I thought he was just And my wife just about jumped off her seat

1:36:25 And he says it was an empty existence. to make ourselves successful by the standards that are laid down for us by external forces You have mortgages. And she was just gritting her teeth we also even get all this validation from the outside, which if you had been valued just for existing from the moment you were born, Let me tell you a story, and let me ask you what you think about it.

1:40:05 there's no room for cowards in this house. that desire to gang up on kids, in 2016 when Hillary Clinton was nominated and she told and it was the of millions of people, people think What? I'm not talking about politics now. Yeah. A four-year-old. She doesn't recognize where she is and why. I know what you're saying. what everybody did yeah well I mean how much of an effect did that have on

1:44:29 effect can be as bad as more severe form of abuse yeah i could i can completely see how that would Wait a minute. but think of your kids. much more you know expressive and lenient and kind and and I tell them how much I love them and the only reason you're 12 and human beings make mistakes. But what's important to know is that I will praise that people lie their way of reality when they're being hurt by reality.

1:47:01 Well, that makes sense. when it shows up. I mean, I don't know if you know the name Bessel van der Kolk. He's a psychiatrist. I'm not arguing politics here. once said that this man doesn't know the difference between truth and lie because if he wants something to be true, he'll believe it. that's a typical ADHD response I'm not diagnosing him. I'm just saying I recognize that there's a response to trauma.

1:50:09 and power are the people that should never have it. That's the whole point. Yeah. That's why it's for us. So they elect another mommy or daddy. Yeah, it's true. than clinton ever was for the very same behavior you know so that and it works both ways that side. You know, there's a psychologist at Notre Dame University she's retired now her name you really might want to talk to her.

1:53:42 She's got a huge body of work. It's like we are mammals. Yes, and unfortunately, environments that actually hurt us. That's true, right? My grandfather was 54, and he was a wonderful doctor in a town, And so my quest as an individual It works in their mind. it's, and one of the weird things is that the most profound of these experiences, Yes, yes. What made me do that?

1:59:44 Yeah. So that's why I was a physician there for 12 years. And I was the doctor at North that comes from Afghanistan? And they relieve not only physical pain, but emotional pain. So the pain relievers, physical and emotional pain relievers, They make possible this little thing called love. What would that mean in the wild? When he did heroin, you mean?

2:03:01 with a fever and your mother wraps you in a warm blanket, sits you Because they didn't have those experiences. And then there's the illegalization of iboga. I've seen psychedelic shamans even abuse, sexually abuse their not that i've seen it i know of it The psychiatrists who have, the doctors who have, It's mapped out. They're something special. and the very famous case,

2:06:44 Right. and gymnastics and so you just deal with it yeah yeah the the power dynamic of human beings having power over other human beings in that way specifically in regards to psychedelics become yeah and the people that's that that's a weird instinct too because we we're always that you found in yourself and that you recognize is closer to you will be all connected and in sync.

2:10:00 our whole selves. an operating manual. And so the subtitle is Trauma, Illness, and Healing in a Toxic Culture. And they don't have any outlet other than psychiatrists. What they're not trained in is to understand about i don't know if you're a comedian do you know who daryl hammond was sure yeah no daryl Well, they called it psychosis. And he says, it was a hallelujah moment for me but it had taken him decades and three dozen

2:13:49 psychedelics i have no knowledge so if he had talked about publicly and if i'd heard about it Really? Is it that it affects your immune system because you're severely stressed? Exactly. It's one unit. What is the role of the immune system? The immune system and the emotional system have the same role. When you repress healthy anger system now the immune system turns against you or it can not fight off malignancy the the physiology

2:18:22 as those who were happily married. chronic fatigue, and so on and so forth. Well, yes. But who gets obese? Obesity is a huge problem in China now. is that, in the goodness That sweet, salt, fat combination. you think that that's I believe in human beings I believe that your experience I just think we have to recognize what the problem is and move towards conditions that will support that potential rather than inhibit it.

2:22:40 Yes. Thank you for being here. Please, let's do it again sometime. Seventh. So thank you very much. the book is. Beautiful. Shout out to Daniel.