Joe Rogan Experience #192 — Sam Harris Transcript

Transcript

0:00 Is that it? Can I give you a dollar at least? All day. Yeah, we havean podcast by night, all day. I'm very happy to be here I'm happy here too man I've watched a lot of your videos online I've he's sure he knows how to fight. nobody really knew that there was one guy out there that could just sort of manhandle people like that and just strangle It's like you're fighting an army of zombies that they've lost, but they can't be forced to admit that they've lost.

2:42 Well, it's hard to see in real time. to score that as conquered ground because you can't address each other in real time. talk past each other and not address the thing that was brought up 10 minutes ago, and it never really gets scored. So it'd be, it also becomes a team, you know, becomes something that defines you. And I think that happens when it gets into religious arguments.

5:30 you know, it really becomes a I mean, they've come there to represent their views, and they've got so much invested in doing that as well as they can that even if their mind was changed, they're not going to admit it. you're being as rational and, and intellectually honest as possible, but Well, yeah. But that is what is brilliant about pure comedy. if you make someone laugh at themselves or at the, or, or the idea that, that they would otherwise defend,

7:32 because it's, obviously you're restricted in the language that you can use in these things. any point of contact with behavior and the rest of physical reality i think it's it's it's the it as a tool, not to use it to control anyone, but to use it as like a personal growth tool. that isn't inherently problematic. to that, that we can just point religious people to and say, you know, how come you're

10:39 Well, if you had someone at the top, Indian sadhu who was silent so he wouldn't you never speak so the only They brought him out. And so he needed this for breakfast. and they just sent him back to india you know he's like put the ice cream back on the shelf Ice cream being carnal, that's very funny. It's like, how much control do you really need over people?

13:55 subject. I get a lot and you're honoring your contracts, we can define what all that means. So there's a tension between, let's say, the right to privacy and finding actual terrorists. But it's a tension that everyone should recognize. open to any counter argument on this but I've never seen the the um the wisdom or necessity of we could go to war with Russia, but there was a really strong belief amongst people that we were the good guys,

17:30 So if you see laws like this, to an attack or detect an attack. And it's understandable. who are not taken care of, who have every economic incentive about the loss of life, just what would that do to the world economy? It's easy to see how the I think the threat of nuclear terrorism is quite real, and anyone who thinks that it's not or that's just fear mongering

20:38 I mean, we're so inefficient in how we... submitting to the same search as somebody who looks like Osama bin Laden, I don't know. How much time a day do you think about nuclear terrorism? It's not a one in a hundred risk. not one in a hundred. and all the different debates that you've gotten into with people about it, But you've got to live life. I mean, it was just insanity.

25:15 Understanding. online. On the one hand, it allows you to cancel bad ideas very quickly. so for instance global jihad also the the the the the role of anonymity online i think is it's pretty destructive i mean if you without social cues, without feeling the emotions of someone unravel based on the fact that there's, i mean what's what's going to elevate people or make people's ideas evolve

29:58 I think one piece of it is, side in any given moment. But I think the one thing we have to get past is this, the kind of moral relativism that you tend to hear from the And he's not waiting for the Messiah to come back and rapture everybody. These people are not rational. So what we should do, I think we need to, one, acknowledge that there are very different

33:32 Does that mean you have to be a certain amount of evil just to keep up, you know, just to compete? But that just ended, you know what I'm saying? that they could blow up the coal, they could blow up embassies in Kenya, Weren't they upset in the first place because we have troops on their land? And it has a mandate to triumph in this world. And people like Osama bin Laden really believe that.

36:55 I haven't thought about what might not be true in it, Jessica Lynch story. You know, it's like And they go right sometimes and conspiracy Most likely. but how many freaks do you think he banged while he was president? and you're whipping your dick out in meetings, Really? at this stage of the the game right when you go and look into his past dealings, like I read

40:19 so it was clear that his body had been moved. Right, true. one of those points. And it's just endless, endless sinkhole of energy, and yet it just takes a second to set that fire. false. he did a debate with um Daniel Dennett uh which really didn't serve Dan very well because it was a technique that was quite effective. I mean, it might have been a conspiracy. The Gulf of Tonkin incident in Vietnam,

43:03 Assume that's the case. As it is almost everywhere. disenfranchised and, you know, of a race that you're not fond of this is you know these are So you're saying as a motivation to do it. and I feel terrible about it. And yet we botched it in these huge ways where we had to go to But it makes no sense What would you have done? But killing 3,000 people in downtown Manhattan, people who are well-connected

46:53 there was definitely a motivation If they weren't going over there to try to control the oil, there. But again, that is easily ascribed to incompetence. I mean, we were sending in competence is not one of them. I mean, I think there are crucial differences. I mean, I think our approach to fighting the war on terror is fundamentally ill-conceived. But from my point of view, people, you know, jihadis in al-Qaeda should just have been disappearing

50:41 killing innocent people when you have to fight certain conflicts. and stealing minerals and what's going on in Afghanistan. from my point of view, is we're just abandoning them to the Taliban. We're abandoning the women to the Taliban. And but do you really think that we should have troops overseas To some degree. federation of states that works better than certainly than the UN,

53:46 And so we clearly have to get to a time where when you have a hostage crisis where an entire country is held hostage by some lunatic or a group of lunatics in the government, the matter of national sovereignty is not an issue. Is that what it is? pressure to any one of these regions demanding that they get their act together. And if it just so happens that there's a culture of those guys

56:37 it's just, it's not, we're not dealing with a culture that can have a sane discussion about the proper goals of human life I mean, what is it no it's who's we we is um well just just look at again take take one piece that you I mean, so the treatment of women is even a bigger variable than notions of race. that every society that has a robust conception of human rights can figure out how to apply pressure to.

59:12 that they would spend so much money to go somewhere to save some women. Why don't they get up every morning feeling like they're completely wasting their life It's not a money... uh, Well, and the cost in the lives of the men and women in our military what you don't hear that are soldiers, and really trying to help a democracy grow in these places.

1:02:07 Afghanistan, I think it was absolutely essential that we do something. If you're a pacifist, you think we should never do anything like this. I mean, so the thugs will win in that case. So I can agree with that. Why wouldn't they be upset with us? if we didn't go into certain situations, You've got a guy who's been a dictator forever and the people literally are.

1:05:44 And yeah, it was a disaster uh because given you more of a pessimistic thought or idea on how how we need to handle people in other parts of the world where their entire Right, right. they'd endlessly talk about it or 14th century goggles that they're looking at the world through. And you have got no other problems in life you need to worry about. So half a percent is a, you know, 1% of humanity is schizophrenic.

1:10:00 What is that? So you think it's possible that half a percent of them. so let's say, Wow. Right? These polls have been run. So let's just dial it all the way down to half a percent. so that the next generation we've made out of the whole thing, How could anybody accept that? Well, it's not. But when you look at And then what we have to do is win a war of ideas around that first circle where they become marginalized, sufficiently marginalized,

1:14:13 Yeah, yeah. so I'm again speaking yeah even if it was not about, even if we would just go into Rwanda to help people, It's just a hard problem. that have gotten these people to have this sort of a perception of us. I mean, one of the things we've now, non-military targets. How do you feel about WikiLeaks? And a car full of children and them saying, well, they shouldn't have brought their kids.

1:19:21 but it's a very different kind of violence. about him. And it needn't have I mean, there may be ways in which we are wired to have a strong response to something that we should just get over, For morale, for the cause? Yeah, but... And if I knew and blogged about it, I would be harming our national security. Sure, absolutely, right? we might disagree with it.

1:23:03 But I think it's a lot more complicated than that. who looks like she just got out of her evangelical church just as much as you frisk the guy who We have to find a balance. for a level of security that will radically transform our lives. what is the real risk we're talking about? Well, there's a sudden death over a long, where I think he was talking about Hurricane Katrina.

1:27:07 just economic consequences. Cut back on them, and again, I wouldn't phrase it in terms of cutting back on civil liberties, I mean, if we could all just see an airport security protocol that just looked right, you know, where it's just, you know, al-qaeda but but i don't look i i'm not as benign a i mean i once saw a little girl when this when Anyway, she was like holding up a line.

1:29:50 So I'm getting through with bullets, How ridiculous is that? and in fighting wars have been corrosive for the same reason. struggling to quantify certain risks against our foreign policy but because and I read what people like Osama Bin Laden say about their intentions just this irredeemable, fallen, Eternity where all the good people get to be happy forever awaits.

1:33:13 I will follow you. Did you think like this growing up? um, I just, So I'm interested in the kind of experience in intensive meditation retreats, they get framed these kinds of experiences and valuing them, a religious experience in that you don't have to believe yeah oh yeah which is probably the beauty you teach them to do yoga or you tell them to do whatever spiritual discipline you think is so potent, based on their talents or based on their

1:37:39 But there is going to be a break with their ordinary consensus trance of egoity. I could show you it. But out of all the people that you teach this, like Kundalini or some intense form of meditation same as the full kaleidoscope of effects you And there's no, the energy of the situation is quite limited. All of that kind of the more aspect that you get with psychedelics isn't really what isn't the point of meditation.

1:41:40 You've had that? Just may you be happy, may you be free from suffering, and just connect with your wish for that person's happiness. is very easy to love like your best friend But wishing with a totally focused mind that is not lost in thought. If you're just concentrated on a— And so this comes back to what I was saying before, that the actual goal, and this is a difference between just getting more content and getting the wisdom that comes with recognizing something about consciousness.

1:45:23 It can happen without the rush of energy in the body. It can happen without the colors changing. even the the sense of subject object perception even just it's like there's there's a way of This is some karate kid type shit. There's a subject, and then there's all the objects. I mean, then you just, and you're trying to get back to it. mean that as far as like goal setting in life right no i mean no i mean there's certainly a

1:48:53 unhappy me, you can be as happy as you can be but there's nothing that many people think it's true because they haven't had is completely profound and and i mean you've had no idea life could be so rich rich now if you have I really couldn't stop thinking after it was over, I keep feeling just a civic responsibility you can suddenly start having with lsd i had 10 perfect experiences where you know afterwards it was just it was unthinkable

1:52:34 I think this is, I don't know I probably would, but I would just, I would pick my moment wisely because I, you know, as good as the good trips But I agree with you that you should be really careful about anything you do, there's something in it they swear this is not pot this is you're drugging me But they're doing MDMA research, and actually the— I mean, there have been studies on both sides.

1:55:36 Um, What do you think is happening in the psychedelic experience? It's from another planet, and that's why there's a logos. and that's the only kind I've ever had I've never had the experience where you're Now, that's that's an experience I haven't had. the And so I'm going to falsify by summarizing what he was claiming to be in dialogue with. listen i had you know i didn't know any of these plants,

2:00:31 But it's just. And so, yeah, I haven't seen in his work Obviously, that's hard to authenticate. Yeah, so obviously it's possible to be completely stoned that is incredibly beautiful and life-changing. I mean, you can have all of these experiences and not know what they mean and be very humble about what you don't know and still value the experiences.

2:03:30 Yeah, it was a whole time wave. But again, how you define novelty is so sketchy. So if December 22 dawns, and basically we've just had another news cycle and it's just Fox News versus CNN, And unfortunately, I really found out recently because of people on my message board kind of illuminated this to me. But apparently it was really in November. to the day. So he was a great speaker.

2:06:56 It's just the whole mythology he created Yeah, well, to this day, And, I mean mean that's actually the And that actually explains a lot of the change you get with psychedelics everything we are conscious of is dependent upon all I'm saying or not based on whether I'm following the rules of English grammar or not but I'm not And so that's just talking about parsing speech,

2:10:36 want and you just tell me to make up my mind and i go back and forth and back and forth and say i'm I go back and forth between left and right, left and right, and you have to make a choice as to which one Right. It just doesn't make any sense. locus of you know, think of an MMA fighter. Okay. Okay. So did you get one? Yes. Okay. Who'd you think of? George St. Pierre.

2:13:45 and you know them as well as you know George St. Pierre's name. And you say, well, St. Pierre, right? You can't explain why you It's still a mystery as to why it is what it is. No, I should not because I have free will. and their emotional responses to various stimuli, and so we can talk about that difference without ever invoking free will. You're not the person who intentionally shot me.

2:16:40 change our legal system in small but crucial ways. yours, right? Do you think that's environmental? human effort and human intention. some people are much luckier than others. Talk about dangerous nonsense. something there yeah if you're a nice person and you're thinking nice thoughts about people Have you ever seen mass prayers where they work I'm like the human salamander.

2:20:50 I'm just talking about... bunch of people to concentrate on something and do we have like the most minute ability to influence like Dean Radin's book on the conscious universe, Tangible results. because do you know? time and allow this thing to be and and i it's just, you know, people find James Randi's skepticism so unpleasant with James Randi and design an experiment, I'm sure he's going to make you jump through hoops

2:25:20 And that's a, okay, I understand just come forward and do it in every context where you can shine light on it and just prove it. who's like I you know the Tiger Woods of mind reading right where you or where that people are right to worry about, which is, one, you didn't, There's weird experiences that you can't duplicate. You don't notice all the time you pick up the phone

2:29:03 One, the hits are salient to us and the and the failures aren't. the um it's called the the the hot hand fallacy in basketball, the idea that people get on a shooting streak. is completely broken down. uh it's it's it's a it's a low percentage enough phenomenon that it is actually insensitive to. I mean, isn't it just a state of mind created by confidence?

2:31:51 Yes. But my understanding is there is zero evidence of what's called the hot hand in basketball. How do you know, though? don't you automatically alter the results of it? that happen every day. he gets on a plane he doesn't even know which country she went to oh my god so he just goes her in, so what are the chances of that happening? So we're in a system where there's bound to be very low probability events.

2:35:03 that very rarely takes place, about someone who can call you? It might be Shell Drake I mean, how do you know that someone calling you might not just be calling you Replicable. Right. with the person because sometimes you know it's somebody you don't even like, right? Well, it's not that it's not working. I mean, we just actually run the numbers on this.

2:38:25 It would have to be thousands for me. that if you get 23 people in the room single birthday. That would have to be thousands. and in desperate need of explanation, Yeah, well, but at least there's actually more to talk about there. But of course, it's completely meaningless. two days a year and they were running it that day. I'm not close enough to the research to have any sense.

2:42:31 Is he lying about what he thinks he knows or is he self-deceived or has he been deceived by unscrupulous people? So that's not real. Kind of the coach It's just that that's anyone who's – there's a fundamentally unscientific attitude you get from many, many people in this area of the human conversation, which is science is reductionistic. by the fact you're experimenting on them.

2:45:24 experiment is hugely limited. And the people who claim, I mean, there are people who really claim these abilities. challenging them or submitting them to test but in yeah in the in the in the contemplative world also doing it. Well, it's just vague enough. This has been a really fascinating conversation, man. Well, I hope we didn't kill our audience.

2:48:46 It's really been really cool. It's a downloadable, small... We didn't even touch jujitsu. So, ladies and gentlemen, that's it. Follow him. Buy his stuff. Sam Harris is the fucking man. It was great, man. Yeah. Awesome, awesome time. We could do this over and over again. So, ladies and gentlemen, We got a lot of people coming up. Yay! Bye-bye. Thank you.