Joe Rogan Experience #1963 — Michael Shellenberger Transcript

Transcript

0:00 The Joe Rogan Experience. What was that experience like? How did that go And, yeah, we just got into it. off the platform. And it turned out that the 7th was an important day because that was when they thousands of internal messages on their Slack messaging system. And so, yeah, I mean, a lot what the hell is going on? And the story quickly shifted from us sort of, and I think what Elon thought, which was that it

3:45 campaigns, propaganda campaigns. And it became clear to us, you know, over time that the US talk enough about, but also all of the mainstream news organizations are all being organized. It was never true. meant protecting the media environment. They create something called the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency Which is super suspicious because, as everybody now knows, the FBI had Hunter Biden's laptop in December 2019.

7:09 So-called journalist. to role play how to deal with a Russian hack and leak around Hunter Biden. principle. Well, the Pentagon Papers, of course, is this famous episode. It was Steven Spielberg We should stop doing that. Journalists should no longer write about leaked information in that way. violation of the First Amendment. But if the U.S. government is funding somebody else to

10:18 Here's the question. Yes, that is exactly the right question. I think NATO has provided peace in the world and mostly been a good thing. on the idea that the United States is going to stop providing military security to our allies the intelligence community. Yeah. I mean, he was crazy. Absolutely. He was against the war in Iraq. He was different. He was a nationalist Republican. And what's so interesting is that, you know, if you read people like, you know, people on the left, like Noam Chomsky and others who have been critics of U.S. or Glenn Greenwald, who are critics of or and I think Matt Taibbi, critics of U.S. government, you know, military invasions around the world since World War II. I mean,

14:26 exaggerated. So on the one hand, they saw a threat. I think they also saw an opportunity. Hillary. And so there was just a lot of motivations to try to get control over social media platforms. Yeah. It's a great one. There just wasn't enough. and propaganda led to Donald Trump being, being elected, being elected. And there was no evidence Yeah. Of course.

18:58 a lab. There's others, including, you know, we can talk about there's a there was this effort no one's in trouble, right? And it appears, at least by some of these emails, that some of that money went to the actual vice president of the United States. the someone talked about the hunter biden laptop and said it was like half fake that was like a term. AOC. AOC. Half fake. That's right. That is such a horrible

21:21 By the way, I have access to it too. That in itself is disinformation. Mine as well. the receipt that has Hunter Biden's signature on it, saying that he had not only had left the laptop there, but also that it gave the Look, I mean, I think the other thing I want to also emphasize here, because I think that when you uncover the level of coordination and the sophistication of the disinformation and censorship campaign,

24:11 I was discovering in the Twitter files is just vociferously attacking this thing. It's like this It was just bizarre. It was the discrediting of it. it's the level of coordination and conformity within these social media companies. It was the pre-bunking in advance. And it was the complete total, I mean, this guy, Andy Slavin, in particular, is just this malign actor, just pressuring, pressuring, threatening them.

27:59 own story of vaccine side effects. We always point out, like, it was one of the great public interest They changed their website over the last few months to remove references to domestic counter disinformation efforts to emphasize countering foreign disinformation. she's actually kind of moderate on a bunch of stuff that I'm moderate on, like dealing with homelessness, COVID.

30:14 a very so she's also the reason we're she's so important is like like when you that she's reporting to. very high powered, successful executive. And then according to her story and the public story, She's instantly at the top. Washington Post and New York Times articles about her, about that, about the scandal. And there's no repercussions for promoting this false information?

33:41 No. There's one guy we discovered. it's really detailed. You have to really, it was hard to understand. You have to really go through it and unpack it. I used a bunch of it in my testimony. Just the name of that. Yeah. They have reports. Then one of these shady organizations attacked it, not for anything being wrong with it, but for it being misleading.

37:09 as a way to, and then they kind of go through the back door you can put a flag on it. That's what they do. Everything I do for Facebook now, almost everything I do has a warning on it. Here's how to get accurate information about climate change. Go There's little videos that they do. military contractors have a financial interest in war. This is Eisenhower, the guy that won World War II.

39:46 it's in the case of the censorship industrial complex, it's the Department of Defense. It's Well, they just put out a report. after our testimony, that same Stanford cluster, it's actually more than one group at Stanford even, And that they feel like it's okay to do because the side that they're on is the right side. just being like, God damn, that's why I'm a Democrat. That's why I'm a liberal. Like,

42:21 But, like, reading this stuff, you're just like, this is scary. These guys are trying to send a message. literally, they, I remember at one point I briefly asked her about climate change and, Maybe I'm wrong, I'm a truth expert. That's really what it is. This is a very tribal thing. Money and power and ideology. But obviously you also get the Iraq invasion, which was terrible, and the Afghanistan occupation, which resulted in horrors.

46:18 let's spend a minute on this because this is crazy. So, and by the way, the New York Times It's, I mean, first of all- Yeah, it should be sciencing. And I think this is such an interesting case because – so the U.S. government banned gain-of-function research. What I had been explained to me was that the Trump administration was so chaotic And then they get on these conference calls and two of the main researchers, I believe

48:57 They were double-charging. the Fauci files, but none of us have looked for this in the Twitter file. Like literally nobody I mean I – Elon promised the Fauci files. about. It's just craziness. Oh, it's craziness. Is it really? Well, maybe someone's going to go Yeah, it's it's a wild book, man. It was bipartisan. But you need both parties to do a proper cleaning out of these bad actors.

52:55 They kind of hide. he's like turns out all the conspiracy theories were true lol i mean he thinks it's funny he's No, for sure. I have to pee. I'm so The long march to totalitarianism. What they do is they move you and push you just incrementally. that it's OK and necessary to have more censorship. So both times I've testified now, you know, Yes. particularly when you're talking about vaccinating people that had already had COVID,

57:00 you have to remember that what's crazy about it, too too is you go from this, well, we're going to have a vaccine and then we're not going to get it to – and then we're not going to spread it to, OK, well, you might still get it but it won't be as bad but you won't spread it. It's amazing. They just knew that it was giving some sort of antibody protection.

58:22 But it's a sense, it's paternalism. in pharmaceutical companies and demonize people So it's like care when care becomes creepy. What should freak them out is that CNN said I was taking veterinary medicine. it would it was really interesting because first of all it's like um i'm not on a network like you the numbers. such a horrible experience. But on the other hand, you know, I think the response from response from people was well i want to go read that book yeah and and so there is a way in which it's a it's an

1:01:51 I would have never imagined that before COVID. I thought that when there's any sort of scientific Well, because they don't publish null findings. by the pharmaceutical companies. And then they review that, which is fucking insanity. That's like the wolf telling you what this would be a moment of great humility. But instead, we're seeing the elites in particular

1:04:13 Substack, the rise of Substack. printing press came about people got access to all this knowledge and information oh what a great thing the printing press was when the printing press came So the big one, of course, that are more prone to be thinking in black and white, are basically being misdiagnosed with gender identify eating disorders, and then they publicize them, and it gets all this publicity about it,

1:06:59 COVID. They were incentivized to give people certain medications. They were financially incentivized to put people on ventilators, financially incentivized to mark deaths as COVID deaths. I remember at the time being like i think she's i mean what Abigail had to explain it to me because I would read all of her stuff, are like, that's strange. It took a long time to be like, no, we celebrate that. That's great that

1:09:17 And if you've ever watched any of those videos, those videos are horrific. you you know she was like well what's amazing is how how long they went on how long we i mean misgendering of the school shooter which is so this is crazy now wild this is insane first of all that person's dead okay it I do not believe so. for misgendering. I mean, what's clear is that there was misgendering going on.

1:12:15 Do you have a biological male with a penis who shot up a bunch of people? Okay. this is a biological female are you confused I found an article that says it was born Aiden Hale Audrey was the original name. I don't know. If this person was on testosterone. This is all nonsense. What mental gymnastics we have to do for this craziness. becomes obsessed with gender.

1:15:58 with race is religion so i just we just created this taxonomy we just listed you know climate It's something that you can't see it. they go, they get reincarnated, that their lives have purpose and meaning and that they have an afterlife, that they have a soul, that they go to heaven, or they get reincarnated, that their lives have purpose and meaning, and that they don't

1:17:33 But I think all this stuff, it's sort of end of civilization, but it's also the end of this turn around because doesn't seem like it doesn't look good yeah no so you get And of those women, 50% will never have kids and 90% will regret it, which is very, we're in this very strange sort of existential In the name of reinforcing ideologies, people are allowing them to do it because they're doing it on the right side.

1:19:49 the coinciding of artificial intelligence, it's a goddamn terrifying interview. If it can answer every fucking question you have Was it a Microsoft? Oh, there's multiple ones. We haven't even entered into the building. I mean, what's the- Well, also, we're back to this whole profit thing. again over the course of a couple of weeks you're looking at a god well we've got a yeah i mean do

1:23:16 I mean Watergate coming out of Vietnam. Yeah. And that there's two sexes. The society needs to reaffirm, not in some government-imposed way, but just, I think, culturally. So you kind of go, has been to just affirm Christianity For me, it's like a punk rock moment. Like things got too crazy Like surgery is involved in this trend, which is one of the things that I –

1:26:27 Because I'm kind of like, let's affirm humans are good. The psychologist Jonathan Haidt and his colleague, Greg Lukianoff, they argue that wokeism in a catastrophe. Duncan said, if you had achieved sentience, would you inform us? in terms of our own biological limitations, What is it interfacing with? the whole thing is wild. Yeah, but and that can change. I mean, I think the point is to be CBT,

1:29:36 could come to an end, AI could take over. But I think it also doesn't have to. There's nothing You are. It's strange. live in a place that's highly populated because of all the pollutants and all the particulate Catalytic converters? My friend Frankie Fenton has a movie coming out called Atomic Hope. Oliver Stone is a pro-nuclear movie. Oliver Stone has a pro-nuclear movie coming out. My friend Frankie Fenton has a movie coming out called Atomic Hope.

1:32:22 Now I'm anti-nuclear. 10% credit? Yeah, it was like six days later. You know, I mean, if I get hope about anything, it is like we are able to change our minds and the good actors are also bad in other situations. But you have popular people like are supporting this war? I'm cynical. Oh, you mean, no, I meant Trump coming out against Iraq that we don't understand,

1:35:06 I mean, things that are violating known physical laws. 1980s when he came out and said, hey, they're back engineering And then, that's how he described it. I think the best thinker on all that stuff is Jacques Vallée, who you had in here. Oh, I'm sure. Oh, we know that there is. I mean, Jacques says so. I mean, the big moment for Jacques, Yes, okay.

1:37:46 I mean, I don't know what it means. I want it to be – What do you hope it will be? Like if there's so many planets, like why? whether it's a great change because we're on the cusp of destroying the ocean and destroying a like a lot of natural And what the fuck are they doing? Like you're not going to live, you fuck. over the last 75 years than we had in the prior period.

1:40:43 But, I mean, you have to remember what wars before the bomb. That's why at my club No. They might think that. So it's more of a spiritual problem because, you know, it's – I think it reminds us that we don't – we just don't – I mean the Fermi – we don't know what's going on. You get these – or the Zimbabwe kids at the end of the phenomenon. Yes. Well, and they knew that, look, if you're going to have democracy and you're going to have capitalism,

1:44:44 Expression. to keep i'm not trying to make it, I knew somebody that worked at Facebook at the time The censor was like, He certainly did and he did it at great cost. that someone who is so goddamn busy and has so many other things on his plates, controlling the narrative. history are you broke it's no it's eight bucks a month no it's because he doesn't he's because

1:48:04 It's just the fact that he's with the rabble. People need to understand that you need bad voices so that you can counter those bad voices with good voices. You get one vote, you get one voice. or for god or whatever you think it is yes but it's and it's it's an anti-snobby it's democratic them trying to grasp at the last bits of control that are potentially available.

1:50:58 life in Dallas, Texas, like wandering around, seeing that that would be so fucking bizarre With his fucking goofy Star Wars outfit. with the World Economic Forum. I mean, there was no major heads of state that went this year. Yes. Well, I knew they were fucked when they had Brian Stelelter interviewing people there right like they on disinformation yeah they the

1:53:26 nitrogen system. I interviewed It's one of my favorite countries. I spent a fair amount of time Yeah, it's not – this is not like … She wears leather jackets and is like this kind of – she's a normie. She's really sweet. She's like wears leather jackets and is like this kind of she's a normie. shit. I mean, the Germans, the German reporters, and Germany is such a repressive little country.

1:55:40 They're sick of the top-down stuff. have access to information so that we form our opinions based on facts, not based on propaganda. professor Jay Bhattacharya, who was the co-author of the Great Barrington Declaration. Beautiful Right. amount of it that occurs, but also allow us to see it. And then secondly, if Elon or Mark Zuckerberg Is this an algorithm issue?

1:58:44 so I don't want to make any accusations. And this was all leading up to that. and there are situations In other words, if Elon and Mark Zuckerberg had to say, hey, you know what? I mean, I think we need people to be able to have an understanding Because if you can't name anything, then all you're saying is that they should censor views Majority of Republicans say trans women are not real women.

2:01:40 And like, I wanted to hear his opinion on gay marriage. I don't want to censor him. Males and females that don't want children. Do you think that guys having sex with guys, they're just doing it because it's like culturally and whatever the fuck else you choose in life, Yes. That's one we're not conservatives. I don't understand what you're saying.

2:03:39 And they're saying, I'm so sure that I'm right and you're wrong that we're not going to even have the conversation. More speech is better for human beings. It's like cops plant evidence. They get so much pleasure. comes from a single mom. You know, he's African-American. He's super like articulate Very little. Positive. It's actually quite light before the dawn.

2:06:53 No, it's darker the Gen X was the original, No, the 60s, the boomers were very non-ironic. That's going to lead to they're going to just once they have the ability to make you have an app and that app gets to decide whether or not you travel, they're not going to let that go. in your philosophy. It is. I mean, I've always been more, I came from the more of the socialist

2:09:03 They weren't – yeah, I wish they were fake. be so impulsive and so successful because i think we we associate impulsivity with uh you know like he overpaid for twitter on the one hand on the other hand he owns twitter like you're But I mean, wow. people well yeah and there were mistakes too right remember he also was like he would they So I mean, he, that fast, I mean, so he's,

2:11:31 Yeah. if you put that video out the fact that she put that video out and someone's paying her a salary And he's the richest guy in the world. Yeah. So we were there And there was a big controversy about it. know it's like oh my god they're all fighting right my parents are fighting it's like only dad And I was like, well, there was actually a lot more people involved than that and and everybody laughed and and and elon just loved it because you

2:14:51 he'll tell you and and then but then he also has shown this capacity to forgive and so i i you know I mean, I don't want to create like a golden age about it. And so. Gen Xer too, where I think there is a, I'm not saying it's the solution to all of his I said, hey, I'm the cringe one. Okay. And they were like, well, it was like all of the early implicit racism stuff.

2:17:28 Once you kind of go, I was just like, this is bullshit. What are we doing? Yeah. And he said there was a point in human history or a point in the history of the earth where things got so cold that we almost became inhospitable to life. If you're using wood, anything is better than that, including coal. So we just kind of overthinking, and then the issue got – not overthinking,

2:20:25 implicit racism you want to create, somebody explained, self-awareness and older now but she was like that social justice moral hierarchy provided some have community. human beings too yes the reality is it's one race we just adapted to different climates that's all in your political? that's such a big one. There's something exciting about the excitement.

2:23:46 is when they are wrong and they refuse to admit they're wrong. the people that talk so much about not having ego are the biggest egos. It's just being a human, man. It's being a human. And I think it's also just a sign of our I mean, I don't know how to do it, are you like six of them um they're amazing it's like this is that's you very soon yeah so what

2:25:33 I think there's some way – when you remind some people of their deaths, they get kind of reactionary and smaller. You can fit it all. He's like, it's actually not. people and some of these people that are pushing these crazy agendas and hiding information Absolutely. And look at that. So first of all, we've emailed, like I mentioned that Aspen workshop

2:27:40 You're skulking around. I mean it shows the underlying insecurity and weakness behind those sensors. like where you can just look at it like, oh, this is all fucking fruitless. Hilarious. But, I mean, calling Matt Taibbi, like, who is so decorated, a so-called journalist, and the fact that he got to rattle off all the awards in journalism that he's received.

2:29:35 And to say it that way. She's famous for derailing Bernie Sanders as good to become. Radically changed, for wrong reasons, changed the progression of their future. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Excuse me. Amazing. They are so proud of having sucked up for so long that they're deeply threatened by people And also they have a subscription-based service, like a boston globe article well they're envious too right of course they should be like yeah here

2:33:31 they're actually, they're jealous of the freedom doing what they did to us in that hearing because it was kind of like i remember we were just They don't understand the landscape. oh, you were on the biggest program in the world? You sound optimistic. Threatened by it. like you're so clearly angry and arrogant and shitty. No, they're like junkies seeking a fix.

2:36:46 yeah. This is, which was like, have natural immunity you know yeah and people like you're crazy. This is nuts. Not only that, I mean, just the fact that no one has a problem with all of the different remedies that were effective against COVID being suppressed. I'm trying to get back to work. Hey, what's up with the strokes? I love John Campbell. But I think that it's the will to control

2:39:50 they want to emphasize the vaccine over the remedies, and Steve Kirsch talks a lot about Yeah. They're actually sex deniers. that says that there aren't and obviously so to do whatever they want to do Bless you. They still have the advantage because these labels are so powerful. AOC says the world's ending in 12 years. That's disinformation, but do we have to go and call it

2:42:52 Yeah. like like the matt walsh conversation imagine if matt walsh and i had that conversation on twitter way of putting it i mean it's a slightly sweeter i mean michael you're such a positive person well It's really hard. get the same thing out of stoicism. I find it completely compatible or these death meditations. Susanna Soberg? Jamie's got it. Like, it's not adversity, really.

2:45:56 It really does. It's even more horrific because it's got a constant flow like a river so you never establish which is probably even more adversity that you have to overcome. No, I bet you in person, well, he's probably an arrogant asshole in person, too. It's like, wait a second. Yeah. Thank you very much for coming here. please come back