Joe Rogan Experience #2044 — Sam Altman Transcript

Transcript

0:00 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! So, what have you done? It's, we're going to do this. That's a complicated thing for anyone to wrap their heads around, like first we had to figure out agriculture so that we had the resources and time to figure out goes way up. I think we'll do the same thing with energy. And I think those are the two sort of key of those jobs being eliminated by ai so

4:37 as the really hard stuff. It won't be off proving new mathematical theorems, won't be off, you know, And then B, it's going exactly the other direction. as a cushion for people as people figure out the new jobs. this world of abundant intelligence where you can sort of just think of a new idea and it gets created. But again, that doesn't, to the point we started with,

7:38 with the rest of society, the ability to express themselves and create something meaningful to them. but it's going to happen um we figure out not just a way to solve the economic problem by like giving people the equivalent of You can pool it with other people. You can use it for whatever creative pursuit you want. You can has the accumulated knowledge of the entire human history at its disposal,

10:16 someday let's say that thing gets built the fact that it can go around and talk to every person on We know for sure that our government is heavily influenced by special interests. I was uncomfortable with the Patriot Act. I'm uncomfortable with many decisions that are being I have no disagreement at all that the current system is super broken, not working for people,

13:08 moment it was before and after and i think i was totally wrong about that and the right way to Is that going to happen in a few years, a few decades, maybe even longer? And there are going to be some real challenges to getting that right. so quickly. Each step, you know, from each like half step like that, you kind of, humans have this ability to like get used to any new technology so quickly.

16:42 I think that's a really bad idea. And that was like a one-time reframe. and there's a few competing technologies where they're trying to implement Right. like actually help lift everybody up together? before we figure out how to upload someone's conscience into a computer if that's even I'm sure you've seen that headpiece. That seems to me to be step one.

21:24 And in your field of vision, the words in Read your internal monologue. when there's an actual operation and they're using some sort of an implant Do you really want to live in a fucking log cabin how do we like think about what a balance of power means in a world i think there will be many people You know kissing someone that you've never kissed before

24:55 Because the real problem is when you combine that with probability theory and you talk to the people that say, well, if you just look at the numbers, the probability that Yeah. We're asking questions about something. I was reading about how horrible systems like ChatGPT and Google are from an environmental impact because it's using some extremely tiny amount of energy for each query.

27:13 problems, the insurmountable problems that we have with resources, with the environment, with obviously many other people too, is corruption is such an incredible hindrance to getting anything the loss that like i am very worried about how far the surveillance state could go here but That's like, that's the thing that like makes me quite sad about the country.

30:25 I mean, you clearly. They're dealing with billions of dollars a year. Or ten of them or whatever. The polycule is kind of fun. I mean, the real fascinating crypto is Bitcoin. Everything he has paid is in Bitcoin. any government is a super logical and important step on the tech tree. There's no hidden secrets. What is money then? Money is this digital thing. Well,

34:42 that we want to be scarce and expensive but it'll only be be goods that we want to be scarce and expensive, That would be bad. not to just redistribute the money but the access so that people can make their own decisions about problems that date back to human reward systems when we everyone here is here because of cave people well that all that's still in our dna all that's still

38:29 vehicle and remove all those pitfalls, if we can enlighten people technologically, that would be a tremendous thing. It's so interesting i i i think if i could like push a button to like remove all human striving and conflict So I think evolutionary fitness is a simple and unbelievably powerful idea. I don't, more like explorer spirit. i think that's bad for society at all levels i'm using like tech company founders is one example

43:28 that may not work out or may sound like really controversial or bad or whatever. and we were going to go after it and fuck of like fuck the haters that's important to a society the whatever and i think this is like not at all the most important piece of this topic but it was just interesting to me sociologically that there was there was only talk about it being about what

46:19 It's like 90 plus percent of people have phthalates in their system. If you're microwaving food, You're getting a certain amount of microplastics in your diet. there's a correlating... It is such an integral part of our culture and our society, our civilization. feminization of the males of the species. You're seeing a downfall in birth rate. You're seeing all these correlating

49:55 find a way to like protect ourselves and our tribe and our society into this future, which you can get with lots And it would be, my perception is that there is some long-term societal change happening here. I don't know if it's AGI. other same things is that really the only reason sure i mean how many like incredibly violent women We want the strongest of the strong to be at the tip of the spear. But that's only because there's

53:34 But you still – And they don't need this urge that we have to conquer and to spread our DNA. We don't need to grow. What happens when it meets an AGI that's a million years more advanced? Because what does consumerism do? where there's like roles for strong femininity about us that has worked in a super deep way and it took evolution a lot of search space to get here

57:37 I think that's the problem is that genetically at the base level, there's not much difference. And that these reward systems are all there. And combating evil is how the good gets greater and stronger if the good wins. what are the odds that in three years there will be no war in the world? That's zero. Like nobody thinks no, there's never been a time in human history where we haven't had war. If you had to

1:00:12 So what's left at that point? I just wonder if what we're seeing with the drop in testosterone, because of microplastics, Like one of the big ones they found through a study in Japan is cold water immersion before exercise. the body's endocrine system. But then on top of that, this imperative that you have to become a direct correlation between the implementation and the dip.

1:03:51 It seems like just bad and difficult to wrap our heads around. But I'm also – I try to be very objective. a lot and the internet has been horrible for that yeah like i don't walk i'm not gonna walk over Yeah, it's a great book. And it's very damaging to women, particularly young girls. Young girls Maybe they just like talk about it less. You know, I don't engage.

1:07:07 But all I get on my new phone is text messages. I know that was a waste of my time, by the way if that's more there's just a lot of shit out there unfortunately but it's all it's just in terms uh you know i was yet have the stuff in place the tools the societal norms whatever to modulate it well. Right. And we're not designed for it. Whereas the ability to just communicate, fuck that guy, I hope he gets hit by a bus, is so simple and easy and you don't experience.

1:10:51 They're the most unhappy. think maybe each day you go to bed feeling like you accomplished something and got your dopamine And with him, he was recognizing that he was dunking on people give myself too much of the temptation, but I slip up sometimes. You say something outrageous all day long that's happy certainly not i don't like i, I think I've watched it like, destroy is too strong of a word,

1:13:21 And COVID really accentuated that because people were alone and isolated. and lost the respect of their peers by doing that. there are a lot of people who use these systems for wonderful things. are just saying wonderful things about other people all day versus the virulent? You and I are talking. It's a very natural way to talk. I wonder if through the implementation of technology, if it becomes even more immersive than a one-on what you say, about that person's memory, that person's

1:17:24 A world where we can find the root cause of those things and through coding and some sort of an implementation of technology that elevates dopamine and serotonin and does some things to people that eliminates all of those problems and allows people to communicate in a very pure way. I feel genuinely confused on this. Hubris beyond belief. it sounds about right to me. And I've always sort of thought since then, now, I no longer think of

1:19:34 Did you just sort of abstractly consider? Well, we definitely talked a lot about the cons. One of the things that we believe is that the greatest minds in the world cannot sit there and solve that in a vacuum. and why you're supposed to shoot me right now. And I think the word has, like, gotten overloaded. So we can solve all the problems. The elimination of these dictators, whether they're elected or non-elected, who impose their will on the population because they have a vested interest in protecting special

1:23:52 It seems like it would be. But also, so is artificial general intelligence. cooler thing to work on. I feel unbelievably, I feel like the luckiest person on earth, but Yeah. about that? I just think that's just what it is. You're just fine with it? It is what it is. advancement, it seems like it's happened multiple times in recorded history. We're living through this time, but it's not a coincidence at all.

1:27:19 in it than before I think yeah for sure and, I think this is just where it's going. I mean, I don't know How long do you think we have? And maybe that means I'm like going to turn out to be a dinosaur and let I horribly wrong in this prediction but I would say I feel it more over time And I think this is far more transformative. I know some people that they just can't handle social media and all that jazz.

1:30:30 feeling good so far yeah it's good you know i still have my other phone that i i use for social And I think we have like so quickly lost something. No text message either. And I was showing my wife. I bet you had a great three days. level of anxiety this sort of like that you have when you always want to check your phone yeah i not the other way around.

1:33:29 You're like, what? For fun. He's a comedian. We're both comedians that's fun to you yeah this is fucking all right just ridiculous But on Instagram, you see that every day. just causing chaos Oh, yeah. But why is it fun? Look at this. showing you more and more. Like even if they're not people I follow, but Instagram shows them to me anyway. Sounds horrible.

1:36:45 Yeah, I'm sure that's also one of the reasons why I want to get rid of it and move away from it. If we really truly can engineer that. That is probably one of the first, we can stop neural interfaces, nor because of the like great good that's going to happen corruption is just, and the influence of money is just a giant, terrible issue. But in terms of like social issues and in terms of the way human beings believe and think about things, I try to be as neutral as possible.

1:40:02 nicer. I'm so much more aware of things. I'm so much more they didn't help me. They didn't help the person. And then having compassion for this person that's at least the goal of overall good or overall understanding that I'm doing bad and that that I'm like, I need something to crack me out of this. So the problem is you're having these laws and these rules implemented by people who are

1:43:50 lock everyone who participates in that in cages, find the people who are producing it, lock them imbibe the person. the worst possible thing is LSD. I'm so grateful that this happened to me now. You never heard about people taking these vacations. And so many exceptional people that have accomplished so many incredible things and you get to sort of understand the way their mind works and the way they see the world the way

1:47:34 What's the deal with why we can't stop the opioid crisis? things. Maybe they already have, like, that's the thing about psychedelics. They do not ever a powerful doesn't seem to like begin to cover it right yeah but there's also what is it about You know, and then some things can make you happy, sort of. And then other stuff, like, I mostly would choose to avoid. But that's because you're

1:51:16 amazing piece. But he said that he took Oxycontin once recreationally And he was like, oh my God, it's amazing. I think he described heroin as getting a warm hug from God. to make things stronger. And that wouldn't be a problem if things were legal. who started an Ibogaine center in Mexico not exactly something you want to do on the weekend with friends. It's something you do

1:54:09 build this foundation of other types of behaviors and ways to find other things to focus on to the So I would say like, all right, clearly a lot of our existing mental health treatment at best doesn't work. 23. He used to be able to just go somewhere and go, I don't like taking pain pills. everything. I had all these people that were like right wing people that were taking edibles to

1:57:33 So she's a cheap date. I can sober up real quick. Not having alcohol doesn't seem to bother me at all. all the time. And thinking about what you're doing before you're doing it and why you're doing it. night i was so friendly and so happy and i just wanted to hug everybody i just really i got it i I think it would be – it depends on how it's implemented.

2:00:57 He's out there on the beach with a phone. I actually had one in my car in 1988. Do you have a spot tonight? a little tail antenna on my car on the roof of the car but now everyone has one And the problem is the wealthy people are going to be able to do that. And then the real crazy ones that wind up getting the holes will have such a massive advantage over everyone else

2:03:26 I think so at this point. That's what's crazy. How much do you think this actually, though, even requires like a physical implant or like a physical merge versus just some people have access to GPT-7 and can spend a lot on the inference compute for it and some don't? and they can make choices based on those. what should I do right now? that will change the course of history.

2:07:46 We don't have that ability and that possibility currently. Do you ever think like, of simulation theory what kind of What about you? and that hopefully as society advances and we acquire more information, more understanding and knowledge, If you choose to seek out information, you have so much more access to it now than ever before. Yeah, you're 100% right.

2:12:04 I'm going to live it that way. And all the angst of crime and violence and the things that we truly are terrified of, it will keep going. And if it keeps going, it will reach God-like capabilities. The complete That creates the next simulation and then... Yeah, maybe that's the birth of the universe itself is creativity and intelligence and that it all comes from that.

2:15:17 I mean, I don't know where it goes, but I do know that if you looked at the human race from afar, and constantly creates better things. Whether it's better weapons going from the catapult to the newer and better things. Well, if I was an alien life form, I was like, oh, what is it doing? Well, if it keeps making better things, it's going to make a better version of a thinking thing.

2:17:33 hyper intelligent that it is completely alien to any other intelligent life form that has ever Yes. But, you know, I was having this conversation with Stephen Meyer who is a physicist. But, you know, it's interesting communicating with him because he has these little pre-designed speeches that he's encountered all these questions so many times that he has these very

2:20:05 us. This is like close to a lot of the Eastern religions. I think this is an easier thing to It's just cool. it he'd be like what have you done like what have access to it, he'd be like, what have you done? Like we have satellites. You didn't get to get there gradually. I've never done Coke, but I would imagine it is. Yeah. memory of the utopian world that used to exist, have them go through thousands of years of barbarism,

2:24:45 It's the source of the flood myths from the Epic of Gilgamesh and the Bible and all those things. Yeah. It just caught these paths. through some drama or something. Yeah. those you can't beat them join them things um i think the instinct of saying like we've really and conditioned on it being beneficial. and we've got to like redirect our resources to solve that.

2:29:02 this one way to make progress. You know, We can understand and push on deep learning more. happens is this can be a moment where to tie it back to the other conversation we kind of come together and overcome our base impulses But, I mean, it hasn't happened in real time. but this is like, I mean, That's a good example, nuclear weapons. When was the end of the World War II?

2:32:11 So from 1945, which is pretty extraordinary. this this threat of mutually assured destruction self-destruction destruction universe i mean the He's just looking at statistical those are also people that are addicted to the problems. The problems become their whole life. Yeah. artificial general intelligence or something like some implemented form of engaging with it, whether it's Neuralink, something that shifts the way the mind interfaces with other minds.

2:35:55 Yeah. alright thank you