Joe Rogan Experience #2047 — Brian Muraresku Transcript

Transcript

0:00 The Joe Rogan Experience. That was exciting. Really? yeah yeah really exciting stuff it It's cool, man. Like if you find vessels that contain psychedelic compounds in an area where people experience these profound rituals. So it was postponed from 21 because of the pandemic. Wow. And so when I do ask her, she talks about the long pilgrimage, and she talks about the fasting that would have taken place,

4:42 you know, in your skepticism. But at a certain point in time, what do you think is going on? Greeks who founded a colony not too far from this place. And the place we're talking about is Pontos. showing Dionysus and this drunken parade. pieces kind of fit together. But I think that, you know, I can't speak for Poppy, but maybe she sees I spent a lot of time looking there, too, or maybe across North Africa, the Near East.

7:57 they brew it they bring it to you there's always been like someone who holds like secret information So you can't look at the Acropolis and not think about the Mycenaean period that goes back to like 1500 B.C. So when you talk about secrets, you talk about potions and sacraments, I think they were always, always changing throughout time. And so maybe the secret recipe in the 5th century B.C. was different from what it looked like 1,000 years before that and 1,000 years since.

10:17 They were always celebrated in the forests and the mountains and at the southern slope of the Acropolis, which is interesting, and urban centers, too. translating cuneiform yeah yeah isn't that amazing i saw a story about that earlier this year. Isn't that amazing? We're getting smarter. It's just amazing that one piece of archaeological evidence I've not practiced it.

12:05 but um i know that gives you some sort of strange high it really does like when you leave there That's not the goal. Well, when you're traveling outside time and space, Mahima, the ability to expand one's body to an infinitely large size. You want to be the king of the world. is that, you know, you're talking, Yeah. people. And this notion of the hungry ghosts is, it's preta in Sanskrit, speaking of more Sanskrit.

16:40 interacting with the world and also your ego is just bullshit. to understand what it's like to be very stupid and very foolish and young and brash and then also You don't know shit. greater than that you couldn't it's too there's too much evidence the sky is just filled with Well, twice. That's right. Just, oh, my God. What have you done? What have you done?

20:47 Or, oh, look, the moon. Because there's nothing to do at night. having with a friend called Lee Berger. He's a paleoanthropologist in South Africa. I mean, they were potentially the first seafarers. Wow. So they, I mean, they were on the move, you know, over a million years ago. the middle ages there was there was nothing to do. Yeah. And so, but think about a million years ago.

23:44 Wow. So very person-like. and the legs and the proportions 1.8 million. how would that be an evolutionary advantage i mean well you can you can scavenge a lot better Some of them can. there was a cheetah here, and they went extinct, but the antelope survived. megafauna that went extinct about you know whatever was it 15 000 years ago 12 800 yeah Like coyotes

27:26 there's not a lot your species can do. You know, we live in these cities, these little communities that we have everything set up And then when things die, there's, you know, raptors come in and vultures come in and all these scavengers come in. Jamie, I brought some slides in that. Do you see where it is? What year is Homo N the lady? There it is.

30:21 apparently left there by this species, Homo naledi. So that was the big bright line that no species had ever crossed, seemingly aside from Homo sapiens. and skinny. But there are features on it that look, again, like archaic, like it could be at I think it's close to 2,000 now, which is really, really strange in paleoanthropology. to look more into it i want to show you how difficult it is to get in there by the way and

33:41 they went up Dragon's Back, as you can see there, and then down what's called the Chute. You see the to Dental Lady. And inside Dental Lady is where they It's like it's so captivating how they discovered and then root through these bones. against all expectations, because only sapiens and maybe Neanderthal does this, And like Lee gets stuck at some point.

36:13 You just have to imagine, like, Some passage from light into darkness and sort of like the passage into the underworld, into death itself. And this has so many resonances with Eleusis, by the way, not entirely surprising. But, you know, they figured out a way, this species, figured out a into the Dinaledi chamber, in the antechamber before that, they found scratch markings,

38:58 Homo sapiens does the same thing in Blombos Cave, The numbers are always changing. It could be like 300,000, 400,000 years ago. Do we have any understanding of whether or not they interact with each other? We interbred with Neanderthal. We have no idea what our relationship with Homo Naledi was like. I mean, why are they doing it? Did they believe in an afterlife?

42:12 in the hominin world at least, then what else does that say about us? Hmm. And this could be the first non-human culture we found in paleoanthropology. So, I mean, that's the crazy part. You know, crows are very smart, like clever. They do it for sport. So they're both like, wah! He's getting close. And every time the cat He's having a good time. Weird.

46:00 So we're not exceptional. learning then like where where is memory is are we wrong about where memories are stored Why gut? concentrate on that thing of the human brain size Over a period of two million years. hole in the ground you know we we build rockets fly to outer space it's like a big difference in When President AI solves all the world's problems, we just give in.

49:36 I think there was more science than religion. I mean, they're called mystery religions, but Again, which is not an end but a beginning. we're all speaking a language that other people invented we're using mathematics at a level that the average human being to work. Enlightenment is possible within your lifetime. in light of your most profound DMT experiences?

53:51 Everything we're doing is based on like who we are and who we think we are and what meaning because it might be able to quickly figure out a lot of things as it interacts with each other, is very psychedelic. Like if you weren't a human and If you looked at it from afar, you'd say, well, what is this thing doing? what you have being more than enough you want more and better and new things. And that fuels consumerism and consumerism fuels more innovation.

57:26 And then you follow the production of art throughout our species. All things that we use today, whether it's a cell phone or a laptop or whatever it is, all of those things came out of the imagination. I collect different quotes from musicians talking about the creative process. It goes to everything that's here. But I'm not sure that we understand the process.

1:00:21 It's a saying. And I believe that everything that we do, everything that we create, And you're like, oh, wow. Like this is the hole I dug. That's crazy. It's a good question. Have you ever read AI jokes? I go, I don't know. If you try to do that on stage at the mothership on a Saturday night, they'll be like, really? When AI becomes a PhD from Princeton, you're going to be dealing with a very different thing. You know, as AI becomes – I just can't imagine that the – whatever it is that makes creativity – because creativity is absolutely inspired by our predecessors

1:04:32 But it's just, couldn't it just do that? You could be singing the next Lizzo song. colter wall's voice there's Mm-mm. But listen to this. 60 even you ain't gonna make this Because we are us. They inspire you. Have you told that story? You know I tried to talk to him, right? Peer pressure is my fault. I mean to the table because I'm like I tried that.

1:11:11 Yeah. I was like, oh my God, what a fucking song. He was asking me questions about some jokes. And I loved this bit. And I was like, oh luckily he knew who I was. He actually knew my comedy. He was asking me questions about some jokes and I loved this bit. Is that what I did? hey man. he knew you immediately. He's a writer. And then he invited us to the show, which was super dope.

1:13:27 It gives you an extra gear. it only does it to us like why would the universe think that that's interesting like does it don't I wish my dog could dance. yeah, I should have brought him the back porch and and so we called animal protection and they didn't know what to do and so we're literally trying to can't run so he's just standing there going hey you gotta eat me like what's going on here and

1:16:32 so animals whatever the intelligence that they have like whatever the fuck Dogs don't. So there's YouTube channels. But the act of moving the body to music is uniquely human. They're spooky smart. these tokens and they had sex with them I've just been always fascinated by chimpanzees. Do you think they do? Ritual. Is there music playing? It branched in a bunch of different ways.

1:19:44 Why is anything still here? Why are we still here sir you know why is anything still why I think sharks are somewhere in the neighborhood That makes sharks at least 10 million years older than trees. How do you manage just this vast, literal sea of life that moves in 3D space? I've had sharks bite fish off my line. Not really. What are you, a psychologist? Where the fuck is going? The guy's a shrink now. What happened? Where'd regular Brian go?

1:22:13 Running from wolves. Do you know that? killing people like wills wolves have always preyed on human beings it's How did it happen? protect the outer perimeter and to keep bears out and things like that. And cats away from people They became more That's a large animal. history in fact in world war, there was actually a ceasefire So people are getting shot, and when you're getting shot, you're dying in this trench.

1:25:50 and no one would come back. You're dealing with people like literally creeping up on each other and shooting each other with rifles. Like children that, like Rupert Sheldrake is talking about this. Like we used to get eaten by cats all the time. A hand glider comes down and takes you out. might not actually be what was happening with domestication.

1:28:44 how do you say his name? That's right. Baal-yev, did I say that right? But that's, you know, the root of all. They all came from wolves. All of them. Right. Have you ever seen domesticated deer just eaten out of people's hands? Yeah, that's from the Missouri breaks. He's probably like four years old or something like that. the spring just and within months they grow so with these farms they're taking these animals

1:33:58 and people shoot them, and they hang them on their wall like a trophy. They want the biggest antlers. And their saliva gets on plants, and then other animals eat the plants, and they get it. if you see an elk a wild elk's antlers, like that is there because they're fighting each other and they're smashing heads. Yeah. It's really interesting to watch how species will adapt

1:37:08 But so in the primate world, the canines are much bigger, obviously, So they were smiling. Gorillas have canines. And it doesn't seem like they always show their teeth in a threatening way. Yeah. right yeah look at that are you i mean jesus christ you imagine seeing that in the wild because they're so like us but then so not like that thing is kind of like that. Show that picture again. It's kind of like us, but God, that thing's terrifying.

1:40:05 The Floresiensis. something else that imputes intelligence. Definitely when Sapiens was around. unknown species closer in time to us than Neanderthals. The date was revised in 2016, estimating instead that the Hobbit was 18 is more magical. A rejected name. that has been talked about by indigenous people and people that live in the jungle and they insist that it's a real thing

1:43:56 The Patterson, but there's so many problems with that. and you're like, oh. And you see him walking, and you see him walking and you see him walking No, I don't want to believe. They decide to shut off a part of their brain that critically looks at information. and you heard that and you heard smashing and thumping around, you're like, oh, my God, there's a gorilla out there.

1:46:55 I never saw that. I mean, I could be wrong. I've never seen this video. And it's just too convenient. We hung around with Bigfoot hunters. I think most certainly at one point in time it was real. I think most certainly at one point in time human beings did interact with Gigantopithecus. He said, where did you find these? I thought it was closer. and then the question is like how long did it survive like just because you

1:50:57 Like that's like literally, like goes down Alaska, But when did it die off? So that was Bigfoot. He did see a grizzly bear a couple years back, which is not supposed to be there in the San Juan Mountains of Colorado. like from these trail cams or camera traps or something. something run across the road that looked like dog's eyes hmm I thought Can I have some?

1:54:04 At least a year. and then the first cup of coffee How do you feel? Peer pressure, just like I got you a drink. though, do you? and I'm very conscious It got me really bad. I was sick for, I mean, I was in bed for definitely a week or two. And then It's a weird term, right? Because it's kind of vague. But that's basically it. Yeah, but it's easy. When you talk to doctors, all you need is a balanced diet.

1:57:39 Well, because that's when people are very low in vitamin D. How much do you take by supplement? hard. I work out as hard now as I did when I was 25, you know, And that is possible to do, but you have to do it right. of people that look similar to the way they looked 10 years ago, but they have more fat and less Huh. and then you stand all the way up and then you slowly lower yourself back down.

2:00:49 It really isn't. do five sets of 20. So I do two in a row where I do 20 push-ups, 20 body weight squats, 20 push-ups, And then once you start doing something like that, then you can incorporate other things. I'm on board. I've been going to a chiropractor. I, that's when I realized I was like grossly out of shape. Yeah. Like, I have the exact same chair at my home desk when I write.

2:04:00 I used to get a bad neck pain when I was writing too much on a laptop because you're sitting there like this the whole time. ones where you're on your knees. Yeah. You know, when, when you're, it's not really a chair. It's What posture is essentially is a constant static exercise Like what facilitated that, you know? there's just, there are some methods that people use. Yeah. And I'm, I'm saying this as someone who hasn't, I've done some breathing exercises that did create a very bizarre state and breathing

2:06:40 yeah i'll give it a try does it work oh yeah yeah it yeah. Yeah, it's pretty wild. It's really interesting. Like, you got a tank that you float in your basement? and he had a bunch of different iterations of it. Your feet are touching the ground. And so he did a bunch of different versions of it. space and you don't see anything you don't hear anything you're half your

2:09:06 taking it through your skin. I almost got the book That's a crazy line. too who just aren't aren't big fans of the psychedelic hypothesis for any number of reasons. reason why I haven't tried psychedelics. Yeah. I wasn't personally called to that experience. But also one of the most bizarre things about the DMT state in particular, Like the first time I did it, I was like, oh my God.

2:12:45 on right now in London. And Graham Hancock told me about this, that there's some really profound I think it's like 90 minutes. Yeah, sign me up. like super abused recreationally especially around here there's because there's a lot of people that Right. you're you're about to embark on yeah this this journey that you're about to go on and um because like all cult documentaries,

2:17:14 And he had this thing that he would do. It was called the knowing. And there's videos of him When he did it these people and or trying to find a way, they still talk about that experience He did understand hypnosis. I think in addition to the extended state infusions with DMT, they're also setting up dreaming or some other, you know, altered experience, I think that part of the really

2:20:39 And McKenna talked about this. Yeah, because I set up this boundary in my real life. It hasn't happened often, but I've had a couple dreams where I've imbibed the potion. I would have practiced. Like, it seems like there's actual strategies to lucid dream. psychedelic states without psychedelics and he said it makes me think of this um one monk who

2:22:57 how to use them properly. And I think that's kind of what we're missing from the ancient past. But throughout the long arc of history, the secret to pharmacology is posology. The notion that it's all about the dosing. That's a big part of it. possible how is it possible that this is literally 15 seconds away like you take It really is very weird. What was that that he vetoed?

2:27:09 That's fair. this bill would decriminalize possession prior to those guidelines going into place and I cannot sign it. That's actually fair, but that means that they should just get What is, is actually what we're talking talking about with prevent against exploitation during guided treatments. And so you just make bare the unconscious, right? You talked about this with cannabis, by the way.

2:29:29 like, dude, I thought the fucking FBI was following me in the sky with drones. And like, I was There's certain drugs that people cannot take. Oh, no, not bilirubin. For a whole year, he was allergic to red meat. Right. They would like to try psychedelics, but they cannot while they're on that medication. And I think that's all very, very important, man.

2:32:12 So that's weird, right? you know that was my interest in writing and writing the book was trying to to suss out like If you were like the whole world was essentially run by dictators back then, why would anybody vary from that strategy? oh you're like literally like creating and so since the book came out I mean mean, there was this, you know, there was all this pandemic space that opened up.

2:34:55 You also need to be a good classicist to do this. And over the past couple of years, he was invited into Yale to continue doing this work at the Yale Peabody Museum, which is one of the world's most prestigious natural history museums. And have they found anything other than ergot that may be psychoactive? And this was all done archaeobotanically, so there was no chemical analysis.

2:37:29 which is the shape and size of the kind of cup that were used by the devotees of Dionysus So the big question is, is what spawned that revolution, the agricultural revolution? I think the oldest evidence for beers are at places like Godin Tepe, which is like 3500 BC. And we have some Yeah. And people seeing witches and people seeing all that. That's one of the speculations.

2:40:38 The rye wolves. Yeah, they were thought to be. the mad I mean, back then, that was a real primary concern. But were there bouts of people using it recreationally? So it was kind of an accident and didn't realize until years later what he'd synthesized until 1943. So before that, I mean, outside that medicinal context, There's the famous pictographs, the mushroom pictographs, the pegtimel.

2:43:42 I can't wait to see that. They look like they're tripping balls. So Tassili and then N apostrophe A J-A-J-J-E-R. That's it. Imagine tripping and seeing that guy. if I can yeah see if you can find that one. Wow. All right. The Tseili mushroom shaman. Again, that was the basis of McKenna's theory. That's pretty cool. And Graham, Graham Hancock wrote a lot about this.

2:47:33 And so it's funny, just after the book came out in the fall, I think it was of 2020, there was a discovery in California related to rock art. It was headlines for weeks. it was too weird that he was having a conversation with a man in a market and he realized in the has been on the medicinal and therapeutic value of psychedelics. beyond the surface of things,

2:50:16 And there were some studies done a few years ago that tested these vessels. You're asking about One is called like the old woman. And those are the active alkaloids in Datura. they'd blow it in their face yeah they think that is the root of the the concept of zombies Dramamine. But if you took those Dramamine patches and put them all over your fucking body, but see under the right circumstances right right dose right yeah you're not tripping but

2:53:11 So it makes sense within their best interest to create a real framework, And that's what we lack today. Circe like the lady from Game of Thrones? What am I looking for here? My point, it's just words, though. It was this underground religion, in some cases literally. and we have the idea of what the early ritual would have looked like. So it's the archaeologicalifical Commission for Sacred Archaeology. So it's the archaeological team

2:56:32 they were called vigilia They would have a wine ceremony in these dank chambers underground picnicking at the bottom there. He said, this was religion. So even though it looks like a picnic, gospels, it was, you know, Jesus asking for the commemoration It was trying to expand into a sunken garage. the Hypogeum was this, which, you know, it's a little strange because, again, you're trying to

3:00:15 you think of something like the Last Supper. And so it's pretty clear that what's important to And so what they think, that's her. dead, not as a picnic, but as religion, as Ramsey McMullen says. Okay, so if we go to the next slide. And so it's unclear if that's St. Paul or Plotinus, So this is just to the right of that banquet scene, where Circe delivers a potion.

3:04:10 I mean, like of all the 27,000 and changed lines of the Odyssey and the Iliad, it's a particularly strange image to evoke from Homer. around the house, which is a very telling detail If you zoom in on Circe. That could be dead people, yeah, which is also strange. So they know for sure, you know, with relative certainty at least, Why was she known as a person who makes cloth?

3:07:20 So this Circe character survives for centuries in the ancient world, Jamie, just in the last slide real quick, I just want to show you this image of the woman. there's the Borghese vase on the left, which is from about 40 BC. It's now in the Louvre. And it's all very ambiguous. so you see in Latin there it's written It means love. but if you go to the next slide,

3:11:02 Wow. We know those compounds existed. banquet and the ritual consumption of powerful compounds. McKenna believed that when you entered into psychedelic interesting like having gone to Catholic school my whole life because you don't that wasn't born like 2,000 years ago with Jesus. And in the Greek world, theophagy really takes its place with Dionysus and these mysteries,

3:14:43 was routinely mixed with different plants and compounds. And so the enthusiasm that resulted from drinking that wine for granted now but to stand on stage and you know spew out lines that belong Yeah, but it's not enough for me either. I mean, that's what I've been doing with my time the past couple of years. from Hellenistic Spain, what is today Spain, 2,200 years ago.

3:17:15 I'll show you. That's me. Right. I knew that this was supposedly the site where these people you were locked in there for a while. I was just trying to empty my head and just try to figure out how much of this is just What is this? Maybe the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. I want to see the construction of the pyramids. dealing with um you know you can't carbon date stone but just knowing the construction that the

3:21:00 some weighing That's, to me, the big one. Can I go home and see my friends? You don't want to drag kids away for too long but but i think it was important for them to see the ruins you know to see delos Who? Why? Yeah, and even then you're just going to be walking around freaking out, which I think is great. Psychedelic blood cocktail in maybe Egypt.

3:23:53 Best followers believed he could provide protection from danger while simultaneously averting harm and being able with his powers to prevent evil. at some point it was in Egypt, but they had this vessel sitting around. In Tampa, Florida? In Why would they go with vaginal? like i know it's weird leap you find mucus like how much difference is mucus from spit to vaginal

3:25:59 They found evidence of fermentation, probably grape. Yeah, correct. Harmala. inhibitor? Correct. Okay. Yeah, correct. So it's unclear what the- It's amazing. Again, this is where dosing comes in. Did they take it with Harmala? This is why the science matters and the data matters. Some are sitting in museums in Greece and Italy. Fuck yeah. And so with this blue water lily and this, so they know that those two things were in there,

3:29:13 Which was also used as a preservative for psychedelics. And so you see these. Good? Boy, that would rewrite everything. Joe, focus. Incense, kefir incense, this famous Egyptian incense. I mean, this is all relatively new. It's a plant. Which makes you puke. Yeah. Whoa. The Yapon Hali? There you go. Oh, interesting. Yeah. caffeine content looking that's what I was looking for.

3:33:43 but a scarcity of tests that have actually been run. And again, between the sciences and the humanities, which is really cool. outside the clinical setting. So looking with a lens of the social sciences and the humanities, Do you feel it differently than you used to? We've got to get you healthy, Brian. I know, man. I'm going to awake. I've been feeling very sleepy recently. Yeah? Yeah. I feel much more awake. We've got to get you healthy, Brian.

3:36:06 If it were up to me, I'd eat. That's the problem with a lot of intellectuals. Please, please, I want to keep you healthy. a lot of questions about how this would be received And there were lots of issues with printers and the pandemic. It's a fantastic book. I've read it twice. I listened to it twice. Thank you, man. It worked out. purpose i was and and to this day like i still want to know that's why i said like i'm not

3:39:47 And he would give guides of the Mayan temples. And, you know, to have this guy explain that to me, And this is also recent, just in the past couple years. That's a leap. known as the Wari. at a remote Wari outpost Vilka. Anadanantra, either colubrina or peregrina. Wow. Well, anybody that's really fascinated with it, I have to bring it up. ignore it. We were able to ignore it for many decades until relatively recently. And now you see congressional investigations and you see different witnesses

3:44:19 around, and not just about things in the sky, but things that interact with us. And so Passport to Magonia is a really cool book that talks about the interaction of, you know, actually has a UFO stored in the basement somewhere. I'm drawn, like with the ancient mysters, I'm drawn to folklore and mythology. But like the relationship between these sightings and our psyches and consciousness, I think, is a far more profound question.

3:46:34 I appreciate you very much.