Joe Rogan Experience #2096 — Josh Dubin & Sheldon Johnson Transcript

Transcript

0:00 The Joe Rogan Experience. So I don't want to bury the headline. hear the sentence he got offense being a gun possession charge. So I will say this, that he received a sentence that far eclipses a sentence that would be commonly doled out for murder or manslaughter. Two stitches. says that he was sentenced to 50 years. I mean, that's no bullshit. I could not believe what I was reading.

3:52 that he possessed to accomplish what he did while incarcerated. And then the path he's taken in the Why are you always bringing up race when you talk about the system? Is it that all people that get wrongfully convicted are people of color? No, but most of them. and no one's looking no one cares no one pays attention and until we don't do anything. We have nothing. I mean, this is my take on this whole make America great again thing. You want to make America great again? Make it so there's less losers. Make it so that

8:38 sense to me and it's not a subject of any presidential debates it's not a subject of Pull that mic up a little bit. Exercising your right to a jury trial and being punished twice. it we're addressing it we're making it happen why politicians don't um i i you know what drives someone to want to get into politics these days is for a different psychiatrist i have no fucking

10:56 So I do think we're making a difference. Fucking weird, right? I said, I just came from the bowels of hell, You have a chance. My sister's deaf. Moshe Kasher, who was on yesterday. you know, kids would say, oh, you're a mulatto, you're a half-breed, and oh, you're adopted. And My grandfather was incarcerated. You know, and I grew up, you know, protecting my mother, interpreting for my mother.

14:57 So there were times where I would be standing there with my mother I had this teacher in the fifth grade, my math teacher. And what he would do was he, when you acted out in and when he swung, I moved my hand. He was cursing. Dorothy, 10-year-old kid, man, just, you know, just. as a young black kid who's out of control with behavioral issues. And, you know, I'm not sure exactly the gist of the conversation that took place.

18:22 because prior to that, I was just a kid. They put what they called a pin on you, and it's a person of interest, Yes. I was a darker person because of the things that I saw grew up after that do not understand pre-crack and post-crack oh yeah it was wild devastated He was a former Los Angeles narcotics officer. It's really not in dispute that it happened.

22:08 The differences in sentencing. So when we talk about social conditions and we talk about situations that were created for the purpose of what? have a response which equals to the condition that we see and um and you're also talking about what What he's always said to me was, I just want people to consider how it may have impacted me. and compared it to the conditions you grew up in? How many people like him have you gotten to know?

26:11 that you're impacted and molded from 10 to 13 and forward, Before we get to your master's, why don't you explain to you, get back at 13. So I get back into my community at 13, and I'm just kind of, not only am I trying to And that's what they do to all the kids. It's not really, it's not, you know, you got a bunch of kids who sit around in a group and, you know, they do a feelings check.

28:26 learned how to survive there I learned you know what it meant to go and steal a I was young, I was impressionable, and this is what I was seeing. I got arrested for smoking. I got arrested for smoking weed. Weed is legal now. My mother's still struggling. And when you see the police car, just yell, oh, shit, oh, shit. And I just, you know, just when you're in these, these, these,

32:13 And I'm just kind of just moving through my life with no purpose. I can, you know, set up a cable where she can watch HBO. He had a warrant out for his arrest. He had a car full of drugs and a car full of guns. they called him the Columbia Law student killer, right? So I'm growing up in this community. My father's gone. My mother's, And when I sent someone to go pick up the money from them, they kind of just was like, you know, whatever, I'm not paying them.

35:51 These guys figure since you're in jail, fuck it, we're not going to pay him. It's just me being honest. I gave him an eighth of a kilo, which is 125 grams of cocaine. And his girlfriend happened to be there, Um, and he identified me in a photo array, unbeknownst to me. He's living an illegal life. and I was going to get my money. No, he didn't get touched. Got roughed up a little bit, because he owed me $7,000. Did he get physically hurt? No.

39:08 In that world, that was considered as permissible. I am in the process of going to court. That's where the cut come from on my face. And I said, I'll take 15 years right now he refused to accept my plea and it's called a post-supervision interview. like the beginning of your bid, how much jail time you have. And I remember going to the law library and I forget how I get the world almanac.

43:24 I just really believed that I was going to die in prison. They were running the substance abuse groups. And I remember just having these moments of reflection and just asking myself, like, what are you going to do? So the loaf is a dietary restriction that they give you. It's a chunk of I had a wife. I did 42 days on the loaf. Let me give it a shot.

47:06 You know, I like rules. rules of the prison or the rules of the game the rules of the street yeah there So I was a rule guy, and they just, you know, And at that time, this is where a lot of what they call set tripping began. I was fortunate that there weren't any consequences. yourself, conflict resolution, all of these ideas of change began to take place with me.

50:06 His liver failed on him one night. Tell me about Jailhouse Hooch. Get a plastic bag. But, like, you know, in the streets when distillation places Or you make the fruit juice. to accelerate the process. Like flies. Here's the, when you hear like going forward what, how Sheldon changed his life and not just the correspondence courses, listening to their anger management classes, right? I won't mention who it is, but I'm listening to

54:25 everyone? It's not happening with everyone. But again, just the paradox here is that this insane, I asked him many times, how often did you cry? Or a bone. this is what it took to save you. And yeah, You had a handful of guys that committed to me and said, and invited me to the graduation, So, you know, I had family. And this is a guy who was in a concentration camp during the Holocaust.

1:00:17 And that was my spirit, on both sides now saying, yo, can you help me? I started working in the law library. I discovered Eight years in, eight years in. and asking me for help. Catch me before I fall. And I want to show them the way. i'm just sitting back watching um the work that Sheldon is doing now. the alternative to incarceration program. A lot of the young kids that catch the

1:04:53 realize is that outside of everything else a lot of these kids they did But one of the things I learned in those arenas is critical thinking and critical analysis, right? And I think a lot of Don't worry about it. And you're going to find yourself, a lot of these kids find themselves in situations where they get 25 years for an assault. That was just me.

1:08:33 is that you now are seeing the connections. And then Sheldon comes over and starts working at the Queens Defenders, which is, it's like the, you know, the appointed counsel for people that can't afford an attorney. How do we do it? But the reason why I mentioned Scared Straight is because, because sure i could go in there and talk to these kids they're not going

1:11:49 I try to wrap my head around what Shakur went through as a kid and growing up We just got one guy. The guy that I spoke to, he said that this kid is just, it's like a sponge. He's just soaking it up so fast. we create these opportunities how do we so now also what we're doing we go into the schools we this, you just see a path towards doing what the other people in your environment are doing.

1:14:44 And there's a guy who's already gone the wrong way who could say, you know what? I figured it out empathize with what I'm going through, You've got the kids who are in communities. where Chase Bank actually works with us and we teach them how to establish credit, how to open But that money that you've been working all week for, eight hours a day, 40 hours a week at the end of the week,

1:17:35 rally about treatment, not jails. How to set up what they call diversion courts for people who They're using human beings as batteries to generate money. not a rallying cry to myself, but the way I got from being a little less intimidated by the mountain to climb was taking a step back really after the last episode and saying, well, what have we done and how have we changed things?

1:20:08 And he has something called the Sean Carter Foundation. So it's kind of remarkable that people know it because of his name and they've heard it, but no one really knows what it does. at DRC, and also are a resource to my students who are taking an and ideas about how we can become you know increase our awareness and I was There is not, if you have an idea like I had,

1:24:05 People were dying off heroin and it didn't become an issue until it was affecting white America, But that's great that he decided to do that. But for whatever reason, they'd be like, why am I yelling at the ticket attendant? guy of average intelligence that just i think i have like more tenacity so i don't if i can help And oftentimes there's so much of an emphasis placed on your grades and what score did you get?

1:28:26 again, just try to get some forward momentum and you'd be surprised at the buy-in that you get. Listen to the podcast. pulling the electrodes out of the sockets and taking energy out of it as much as we can until they're like well OK, it's not our problem anymore. Once they start acting as a corporation, which all corporations, it is in their best interest to try to maximize the amount of profit they make always.

1:31:59 Like, for example, I was supposed to go testify at a congressional Senate hearing on what they call slave wages, right? I was just reading an article today about that I was just reading an article today about There it is. this may be bad for your health. Well, and the most important— Wild. continues today like 13th and i was 17th and i was 19th and i during the pandemic uh great

1:35:46 What you're seeing on the screen is not some new thing. And you remember in the Shawshank Redemption where they had this precise thing, where it was, She's a scientist and like one of the more respected or in my mind, the most respected reform advocate about how we stop using junk science like bite marks and, you know. Before you get to the prosecutors, these are the people writing the laws.

1:38:52 I could, a qualified, certified actually, strike qualified, certified scientists from all over the world study all of these disciplines of forensic these new technologies. I shake your hand this morning and then I later pick up a knife and stab someone and your DNA ends up on the knife. Bite mark evidence. To protect their rights, into today and how our rights are still

1:42:58 You know, you have, like he said, Reach out. and I posted it on my Instagram page. you have veterans that come back from wars who put you in office. make them i mean trump might be in my opinion a little nuts but he's you know a little crazy he's He's no, look, I'm deeply, deeply flawed. we've had quite a few of them now they they have changed a lot of people's ideas on how the prison

1:48:00 and came out better. Right, which happens most of the time. You sent him to a parole board. um monsters because what else would you expect right Right. Right. I mean, there's a great book I probably have a different perspective on it now. When I came home, right, in May, Oh, sir, I'm just telling you, you don't qualify for it. I said, I need to speak to your supervisor.

1:51:53 What if I didn't have anything? This is real stuff. And I had a little J-Pay debit card because I had a couple of dollars in my account I don't know what a PDF that I went online and they said I had to convert my application into a PDF before I could submit it. as my role in the Cornell Prison Education Program, I don't even know how to convert something to a PDF.

1:54:41 There's a great program in New York called Hudson Link. Sean Peker uh it runs the organization amongst many other formerly incarcerated individuals loaf of bread out the grocery store um you know what's crazy there's um this was a trippy moment This guy was so inspired by what he saw at Sing Sing with formerly incarcerated individuals that got out and started programs.

1:57:19 going around trying to, Yeah, the Javits Center. I see him there. They have like a, it looks like a, like a thrift shop. We said, we'll bring you some clothes. I gave him a big hug. were working. So we created a number of programs. One of them was a civic engagement in New York reading disability, right? That's almost half of the individuals that are in the Department

2:01:23 with their literacy skills and that half were But when we talk about going back to the PDF thing, right? I want to get to what were the circumstances that got your sentence reduced and how'd that come about? And I filed it. sentences and so um the motion got denied but in the Say, okay, you have a guy who has these set of circumstances, initially conceded to the motion saying saying we're not going to oppose the motion

2:06:39 That was my nickname in prison. You know the details more than I do. Well, I mean i mean listen i don't want to get too much into the details because i i don't time. They're doing a count now. I got to go by. Or sometimes it'll just click off. So Bruce is, here he's right here he wants to talk to you I said I'm not talking to anyone else I'm dealing

2:09:39 real well she's like tells me I remember your house and i'm like this come on you can't make this Pushing it back, they said, oh, it's too much going on. district attorney of New York and let him know that we were now representing And I said, so what do you do with that fact? And Sheldon said, I don't know what his experiences was. And a person who's in that position should be in a position to be more objective, right?

2:14:41 they will go out of their way, oftentimes, That's what we used to say. There's been times when, you know, Excuse my language for using those words, right? psychological state God, it's such a fucked up system. So that's more than the population of Austin. starting at a grassroots level, is to have a diversion court about how will that impact my electability, right? Because are the corrections officers union,

2:20:13 programs, the drug diversion programs that are available now weren't available back then. He's Florida State, University of Florida, and all the other public universities are. And if you take a thread and pull it forward through time, the United States Office of Civil And it's a controversial subject amongst ignorant voters. of segregation. And, you know, really the state has the burden to say, no, there is a justified

2:25:44 have gone and lobbied the Let's just fund FAMU proportionate to how we fund every other school. appeals and you make your case and you just keep on fighting and trying to get it right. facility protesting as the volunteers were coming into prison with signs saying, does my kid have to So it can be done. Right. You know, I was just, you know. best and the worst in people. A lot of these civil rights organizations, you know, again,

2:31:12 it is and we don't have the money to get the reports done and there's just two of us so the And, you know, he needs help. And we're looking for ways to collaborate. So we said, well, what have it be about me or put my name on the door, let me get the credit. And I think Googling it would be faster. I thank you from deep within my soul for allowing us to have this platform and, you know, the commitment that you made to doing this quarterly and telling these stories.

2:35:10 And Sheldon, thank you very much for being here, man. to work with our Youth Emergent Leadership Program. Appreciate you having me here, man.