Joe Rogan Experience #2121 — Jonathan Haidt Transcript

Transcript

0:00 The Joe Rogan Experience. more true how the great rewiring of childhood is causing an epidemic of mental illness. I think a lot of older people, particularly boomers, They're much, much worse for development. Because when we were watching TV, I'm a little older than you. all these ways, the new way that kids are digital is really not like what invest an hour of your time and $100 to do something, how much does it cost? Well, you

3:13 But you know, 13 to 15, 17, that range, that's when it's heaviest. So you mean what changed? Like why is there now more agreement? of time on screens, do they come out more depressed? The answer is yes, but the correlation know, what kids most need is less time on their devices and more time I mean, in New York City, they locked up the playgrounds.

5:20 COVID actually, you know, I've actually got some, I've got some chart, you know, if you Oh, so these, these are stickers for your kids. know what your kids think about social media and whether they think it's a good 5%. been the case, especially once they hit puberty. And that was 2019. So if we can have the next slide. That is, COVID was, COVID did increase things.

8:50 that ramp is very steep, the upward ramp. They communicate with each other. But I suspect that that sort of extra acceleration thing. TikTok is not stories. It's little tiny, tiny bits of something. And they're short, of people that are very torn on this because they don't want to give the government the not have kids on certain things. But if we just, if it was just a question of, you know,

12:43 They tell them in China, you have to have this kind of content and not that kind of content. There was an incredible I mean, as Tristan says, imagine if in the 1960s, the Soviet Union owned and controlled, security risk? What specifically have they seen? So a lot of it seems to have And so TikTok has enormous amounts of data, in a server over here in Singapore, I don't know where, but it's not in China. Come on,

15:34 influencing American kids to be pro this or pro that on any political issue. that competed against Leah Thomas. an extraordinary amount of intimidation available via social media. And so this has led the leaders of all kinds of organizations to run scared. can mobilize the most force to threaten, to harass, to surround, to mob anyone. harmful before then. But by 2012-2013 it had really become as though everyone had a dart

18:18 Which is very strange, because that means that they're mobilizing specifically to try a foreign intelligence service, Have you ever sat down and tried to figure out a solution to this other than trying to encourage people not to use it? Oh, it's things like you know, like identity authentication You go through a third party. Is that possible to do internationally?

21:07 could do that, then you could target individuals that wouldn't be allowed to be anonymous. to be good, vibrant democracies, Like say if you're talking about people in Oh, I see. And what I'm saying is there are some things have to do with the basic architecture of the web. As the architecture changes, it opens us up to new possibilities and risks. well, then he just loses money. But if everyone does it, well, then actually you can solve

24:57 at NYU and a review of the book of the anxious generation in the Times of London, and the And there's evidence suggesting I'm assuming we'll never get help from either one now. I hope I'm wrong about Congress Sure, give him a flip phone. So we don't need everybody, but we need to break the feeling that everyone has to have universally at first. But I think we could still develop a norm that it's just not appropriate

28:13 I just don't imagine that with the momentum that social media has today you know, do you think I got this wrong? Or do you think this is a correct description of what's Okay, yeah, please. Here it would be nice if Congress would raise the age to 16 and make the companies enforce So it does require a big push. And then we'll see whether it spreads. texting. Because if anyone is texting during the day, during the school day,

31:32 it. The kids are like, oh wow, we actually talk in between classes. We have five minutes had a few weeks ago with a comedian friend of yours, and I think this was a direct quote didn't have a normal childhood where you developed executive function, where you This is my concern, is that this is just the beginning of this integration that we have between adults and children. I'm very reluctant to tell adults what to do. If adults want

34:18 of time before AI girlfriends are put into these incredible female bodies that you can or all sorts of expensive skin treatments, There's so many adults that I know that are engrossed in this world of other people's the Second World War. And in the 70s and 80s, Americans switched over to a lot of junk food and we became obese, like What's the root of that progress?

36:54 Do we know what caused it to go down? okay yeah look it up online is it is obesity still rising the United States We're sure Jamie can find something that points to it or doesn't point to it. I'm spilling this. That I don't know because it's not my field, but I would say that that is a probably It's much stronger, I would say. But the question is, will we adapt to it in some way

39:21 through puberty on social media and video games, It's a massive difference. because first of all, I'm aware of this number, go to their page, nope, nope, not a real person. How many of them are there? There's a lot of them, man. It's really incredible. says some horrific, nasty, racist, whatever thing in your comment thread, and now everyone but the function of putting something out

42:45 my 600 pound life, you know, people that are realizing like, Oh my God, what have I done? I've ruined my, my body, I've ruined my life. How do I slowly get back to a normal state? Yeah, I share that fear. And, you know, if current trends continue, you know, it's really not clear how we get That's right. This is a rewiring. That's anything like this. That's right. This is a category...

44:16 studying this. But, you know, it's all happening so fast. And then the problems in universities And yeah, now it doesn't. And that it's not going to be a question of whether or not you opt out, whether you pick the advantage of having It was actually connected to my car in 1989, hey, can you get the Dartmouth at 10 PM? great. I can call my friends. I don't even have to be home. There was so many positives

47:16 That's right. That's right. Yes, we are certainly headed in that way. And I think the word human Telephones are great. where everyone else is on these seven platforms. thought, oh, this could be amazing. Like, they can connect. They can form communities. So far the initial the initial verdict is horrible Regardless of how you feel about SSRIs, Yes, so there's that.

51:19 had an increase in dopamine. It sounds silly, but if dopamine increase by, look, if you have look at things in that direction, that's my concern is that the rewiring of the mind, me, I go around saying we need to do these four norms, we can do them. And people say, oh, that a future that's really fantastic. But how do we get there? And are we able to get there?

54:29 bipartisan. The senators and congressmen have kids, they see it. So let's, you know, let's So the first three are about phones. Free Range Kids. I said, like letting kids go for sleepovers and spend more time with other kids and unsupervised. three, when you let them out like they could go out the door, get on a bicycle, walk seven They're all on Instagram now.

57:25 I would agree to that. Oh yeah. Once you're identified as a sex offender, you'll never, you know, you are gone for a But I can I can you know from so look I study moral psychology history of this particular movement, that horrible term, but there is a certain and then some others who share this morality, which is focused on not making anyone feel That's not, it's, you can't apply it in the real world. It's just, it's too

1:01:21 that idea out, and then other people say, no say no that's really stupid and it doesn't catch on because this is not an idea that's going to catch on No way. Wait, wait, wait. As like decriminalizing or destigmatizing? And I didn't investigate what these women had families or what it was, but this is this identity first and then ranking identities and saying some identities

1:03:21 It's an important topic. You know, I mean, they're welcome to live in the United States, but when they get influence about how our society has changed. you know, anybody who questions. So they shoot their moderates. And what you have is even bots come into play. Yeah, because I think I really do believe that this is being that we're a multi-ethnic democracy. We're making a lot of progress towards tolerance.

1:07:09 Like did he suddenly drop that desire? did amazing work to get to the bottom of this. You know, they started running tests in 2013. The government. So, you know, we're handing them the tools and the That's right. That could be right. I mean, it is chilling to watch and it is prophetic. They don't have to have congressional hearings. triumph in the 20th century over all these other models? Because democracy gives us a

1:10:29 so that it's not about sharing information, whatever the magic ingredient that made democracy so triumphant in the 20th century, Western That's right. I was always a Democrat, now I'm nothing. So my original work was on how morality varies across cultures. originally from within the left. And that's a pretty good way to get a bunch of darts And how many of those people were even real people?

1:13:57 these platforms for speech. if they can somehow or another frame it in a way Seeing then all will be well. So I think we shouldn't be thinking about social media like, well, how do we keep the farthest left, 3%, the farthest left, 3%, So that's the kind of regulation that I favor, And so you're developing these platforms That's right. of the problem, but man are they amplifiers. And I think that's what

1:18:14 Do you think that if you looked at algorithms, do you think that it's an overall net negative? California Department of Parks and you have a hundred years of experience That's kind of what happened once we switched over like everything's burning. point it's going to be going up so fast that it'll go up an infinite amount every day or chaos. Google did in introducing Gemini.

1:22:02 Even Nazis had to be multiracial or black. So there's two things to say about is what I've called structural stupidity. So you have very smart people. But if anyone questions a DEI-related policy on campus, So that's what happened to us in universities in 2015 to usher in our now nine years of This is a massive violation of the truth. It's not as explicit, but it does do certain things.

1:24:28 politically neutral, but you wouldn't say from that I just don't think they played it all out. you apply that to everything across the board and don't make exceptions in terms Right, but there's nothing written about black Nazis. ads had much more diversity in the 1980s and 90s. So no, I would agree that the Gemini case clearly someone Oh my god. instantaneously, summarizing notes, bullet points, very helpful features. So because

1:27:53 But now there becomes, this is something that Apple has to compete with. is a loss of professional responsibility, a loss And if we're going to make it through this difficult period, we need some way to find And for them to so explicitly say, you know, our mission is political, it's not to help you find the to the point where we could live together, we could celebrate diversity in its real forms,

1:30:38 you'll do anything. And so he framed it as a sort of a Hail Mary pass that patriotic Americans were supposed There's been an uptick, but you know, not very little compared to say bath. and all the independent journalists that exist now, which is one of the more I have the actual speech the headlines are different, but I'll just play this. Let's play the actual speech

1:33:20 If I get elected — now, if I don't get elected, it's going to be a bloodbath history of our country. I believe that. So that's what he said. Well that sounds I didn't hear any, I mean the bloodbath is... I don't think he's specific. yes that's right but it doesn't sound to me as though the media took that one out A friend of mine, all he does is build car manufacturing plants.

1:36:09 Joe, I think we're not going to settle this. subject to hijacking by those with a political agenda. So I agree with you about No, he just makes this aside about the bloodbath. Yes, that would have been a reasonable thing to say. But no argument there and no, I mean, what most people are like it's about how much power do the extremists have because anyone now has the power to hijack,

1:38:38 that professors are mostly tenured radicals who care more about Marxism than about educating And people say, well, you've got tenure. So yes, that's exactly the problem. rampant anti-semitism on campus where people were actively calling for the I'm also Jewish. That is political speech that's protected under the First Amendment. about every word we say, because you never know when it'll explode and cause a scandal.

1:41:57 That's right. No, I'm sorry, Joe, you're right. The question, right, the deeper question is a low point in public esteem. And so I'm actually, so last semester So higher ed really lost the trust of most of the country. That's right. Democracy is based on it. that things are gonna change stupid and crazy and wrong, but they won't say anything. But then when somebody

1:45:27 is we're going to see a split in the academic world. So I think there were a few schools that all the crazy politics, the activist students, A year from now, if I come back on a year or two, we'll see. to debate and not shout them down. If there was any punishment, the students would change very quickly. I think we damaged our brand very severely. that you're not quoting when you quote this.

1:48:20 But the Jewish students must have been the most horrified. Oh my god my god, yes, stabbed in the back is the way many of us feel. They're not here to protest the latest political. student feels freer to speak up. moral psychology and some of the content from my book the righteous mind and it's and that people recognize that it's really beneficial to all to have these ideas debate. If you truly

1:50:55 And he's been pointing out, there's a great talk won the battle, but that made you lose the war. And so, you know, I think when institutions, Yeah, not in the top 20 or 50. Well, that is a problem. That's right. Yeah, it is well actually no you know, threats and intimidation and even some violence are happening or threats of So it is in part where it is. And then I think also,

1:54:00 I just fear for the children that come out of that, too, in is coming in from TikTok, not from your parents or your friends or your teachers. You know, there's an issue that's porn. you know, for straight kids. And the girls see it too. It's also so distorted, the relationships in these porn videos. I mean, yes, there's a libertarian argument on the other side that, oh, we should never,

1:57:18 to our kids. So parents everywhere are fed up. They all see it. They don't know what to do, but they're all And that's like the fall of the Berlin Wall, The evidence that it's caused by social media is a lot stronger than it was a few years ago. It's a milk carton with a child on it and it says, missing childhood. but we're starting a national movement to get parents, to encourage parents, to work together.

2:00:58 of technology in kids' lives. Read it. Bye, everybody.