Joe Rogan Experience #2136 — Graham Hancock & Flint Dibble Transcript

Transcript

0:00 The Joe Rogan Experience. My dad was an archaeologist and I'm just very passionate about sharing archaeology and what we do, All right, we had a bit of a technical issue, but we're up. Okay, terrific. 2011 you I think were one of my first real guests you might be the first real guest Here we go. Alright, so look, one of the things that I see when I'm online or in person sharing archaeology

2:30 sex. 2,000 years. Yeah, and for a long time scholars thought that a piece like this And Kathleen Lynch and Sean Lewis there is in the world, this is a map that shows the Horn of Africa with every single And we use innovative technology, sort of LIDAR, lasers from the sky, it's at risk and that's something I also want to take some time to get across a

5:25 in the teeth of these animals. And by taking multiple samples on different parts of the teeth, And so in this case, I'm here to try to discuss with Graham and i want to tackle this with the perspective of my own experience It's after all a lost civilization, right? has been around for several hundred years. And so what I want to do is focus on where my own

8:08 is... it's not accessible. And so I really want to focus on Ice Age coastlines, evidence from these underwater, whatever, what would you call them? But most of what's underwater are lithic scatter, scatters of stone tools, stuff like this. I thought you were going to hook us up with some real stuff. Sorry, no, I can't bring real stuff. yeah. So these when you're finding remnants of ancient hunter-gatherers, how much evidence,

10:42 Thousands. past. I've helped collect thousands and thousands of seeds like was not an introduction, it's something that happened in a real space, and we'll Okay, let's say people in uncontacted indigenous tribes in the Amazon. with a region? And what are the oldest seeds that you've found? Okay. A lamp, okay. Yeah, but it's now open. evidence for hunter-gatherers, if you see what I mean. And so the evidence is just enormous, this database for hunter-gatherers, and so I think

15:19 The earliest tools we know of are many hundreds of thousands of years, right, before modern But as time goes on, they become smaller and smaller because humans become more efficient How they do it with like a piece of leather on their leg, So you were saying that we have a very clear chain. I think what we can say is we can understand, start pinpointing the starts of domestication

16:56 I mean, in many ways, like I think Graham's TV show is fun and interesting TV, but I think Got it. Okay. And so I just want to end with a couple questions for Graham if he's willing. that there's a good chance there's no metallurgy, for example, with this civilization. He said early because it would show up in the atmosphere. Likewise, we can think about shipwrecks, right?

19:16 If we're looking for a civilization that's traversing the oceans, we should find these Something around there, I'd say, is around the oldest that we have, yeah. So in general, wood will decay. Yeah, it's incredible like the whole boat just imagine what it had been to been on that boat back then There's this idea that things just decay the older they are, and that's really not true.

21:45 In fact, the worst place to be is the tidal zone. with things like 10, 20,000 years ago, 30,000 years ago? Yeah, it's going to depend on the specific environment is the answer. ourselves. Every article I have published and most of my colleagues have published Oh, yeah, thank you. It's in a way a historic occasion, because as far as I know, this is the first time ever

24:30 civilization like all civilizations that emerged out of shamanism. I believe that they did the precession of the equinoxes. Clovis and that was over 20 years ago. it the Clovis culture is because its artifacts were first found in a place called Blackwater that's very debatable, and then they entered the main part of the Americas and gradually later. A huge amount

28:33 this is Jacques Saint-Germain, who investigated bluefish caves in the Yukon Spanish Inquisition. Audiences paid little heed to his evidence at academic conferences. of his reputation for saying something that other archaeologists disagreed with had been a theory that was debunked in the 1990s, it's weird to see it still being debunked in 2012. Tom Dillehay discovered the site of,

32:10 attacked, particularly by American archaeologists. And what we now know that Tom Delillehay has been vindicated and that he was absolutely correct all along, I just have the HDMI cable. discoverer and excavator of Monte Verde. I put together an interdisciplinary of experience amongst them. of my presentation time, and I would like to deal with the issue that Flint has mentioned

35:17 this is quite cleverly put. They said, don't, they said, reclassify it as science fiction. It's kind of interesting though from that statement, just the last thing, contrary to conspiring against me. I think that archaeology is locked into a mindset about the past where my ideas simply seem preposterous. And I think it's very annoying to archaeology that those ideas have some resonance with the public.

37:30 What sort of percent? Well, a lot of sort of desert archaeology does not have been excavated for and before the Neolithic, we can find ephemeral hunter-gatherer camps where they were napping which shows a green and fertile Sahara. And oddly, it coincides very much with a radar 200 years in the future, the technologies might be so much more advanced. There's so

40:22 are minuscule by comparison. Yet, where investigation This is very recently, actually. touching the edge. When I was there with them back in September 23, I think it was, we actually did we would have to revolutionize Thousands more of these geoglyphs, for example. 27 million square kilometres of the Earth's surface was continental Europe, a submerged

43:44 And I just want to say that I and my wife, Santha, have done a great deal of diving. column if you see on the left the submerged column at Namadol, on the piled one on top of the other. And then when you come to the end of the tunnel to argue this is all completely natural. I have done more than 200 dives at Yonaguni. Flint, do you think nature made that?

46:46 I mean even the photos you were showing of Yonaguni showed a lot of natural fractures This is a rock wall off Taiwan. Again, Santhan, I went diving there. That's a My wife Santha was born in Malaysia, but she's of Tamil, South Indian origin, so we had a us? And it took some time to put it together. This was an expedition with the Scientific Institute of Oceanography in India who were with us were intrigued by this.

49:22 funding, the only funding we have, I've never had financial of a lost civilization while there's so much of the earth that remains to be studied. excavation. And so I mean, at this point our numbers of archaeological sites are trying to say that archaeology has perfect coverage, but we do have quite a and what looks like passageways and that curved surface underground.

52:20 This blows me away, but the other image blows me away of the curved front of that feature This is what you look at. These are crazy. If these are natural formations, Right, so how do you think they were placed in that manner? Show me the other one with the front curved surface. Some of these look bizarre. But I mean, I don't know, I've seen a lot of crazy natural stuff and I see nothing here that to me

54:42 And how it juts off and it's flat below it in a uniform I mean regardless we still have no dates from this we have no artifacts. out of the bedrock as well. It seems to me inconceivable that nature could have made done yeah archaeology and how long ago was supposedly was this above ground that we have from Yonaguni. Yonaguni isn't simply that terrace, it's a whole series of

58:00 rescue archaeology, Flint, if we come back to Northern Europe, for example. I mean, the last place on Earth that I would look for the remains of a lost civilization So what we get is accidental discovery. Somebody's building a road or building a dam. They call massive parts of them. And then I'm sure you know this, Flint, that when we come to most P-E-T-R-I? This is a site in the Aegean, and this is an example of kind of what a...

1:00:43 have suggested might have inspired Plato's Atlantis because it happened during Plato's lifetime that that city was What you have in Yonaguni. those. Wait, wait, how can you actually talk about it? You've been there as a tourist to see how archaeologists have conserved it and preserved it and SAC say why HUA MAM? S-A-C-S-A-Y-H-U-A-M-A-M. Yeah, it is actual architecture. Yeah, I agree.

1:03:47 Frint, as you would know if you'd been there. This still does not look anything This is on Quora, right? So the difference to me is like there's some instances like in between the steps where The difference between, in my mind, Sacsay Waman shows all those other things that are so clearly architecture. And Flint, what is your position on that, specifically what he's talking about South America, that South America would be a place where an advanced civilization would

1:06:16 America we can see it with a variety of different crops. with one another alongside major roads. Yes, it resets. Technology, man. And I want to show you what we do have. If somebody wanted to do that, where would they go? I just wanted to get it out there while it's still in people's minds. of Egypt, above Abydos. Abydos is famous because that's where the pre-dynastic dynasty came

1:09:12 right, of lithics, of stone tools that showed people working in place and they preserve sometimes as well. And so we actually have this picture of stuff that's different You could air drop it. Isn't that a part of a big lawsuit right now? Yeah, she's going to explain that. So what she does is she develops predictive models We go back from the known to the unknown.

1:11:49 And if we're fortunate, then after we And so I think that that's important to understand because this material is there to find even Kosker Cave, it's a Pena Cave, it's 115 feet underwater off the coast of Marseille, found there's a black stag. And so we actually are looking underwater and successfully finding not room for some sort of empire there or civilization.

1:14:15 Can you explain those lines? Yeah, so these are lines based on 100 meters and 120 meters It's not like a huge, untapped landscape to look at, if you see what I mean. this issue, that not enough has been done to rule out the possibility of a lost civilization. fascinating and not enough underwater archaeology has been done I don't care how many sites you've got.

1:16:55 Okay, so let me explain and share with people. so much evidence for ephemeral hunter-gatherers but not evidence from an advanced civilization up further inland as well. So we can see all over the world this kind of coastal interaction, and it's and then he excavated several of them. What this is, is this is an uplifted sea None of that's surprising to me.

1:19:13 Both can be true. One second, Graham. looking at is this new migration pathway, the Kelp Highway Hypothesis done by John Erlinson and others. from about 15,000 years ago. at this early time. And whatever we find, whether it's footprints or something else, How do you feel as an archaeologist? don't focus on the peopling of America. Me, I do ancient I think that's a problem.

1:23:53 the Ice Age. So this might be a good opportunity to get into the controversial issue of Bimini, All right, we'll go back to Bimini. end this little thing by saying that we have coastal Ice Age archaeology from the coast of Israel trying to combat the coast level it, but it makes it very, very hard to swallow, if you see what I mean, because nobody really understands how much archaeology we have. We have a lot

1:26:36 I'm not surprised that we find hunter-gatherer traces underwater. civilization. But that brings us to another issue of what is studied and what is not studied suggestion that the so-called Bimini Road is a man-made artifact has been mocked and But I've heard from other geologists that it is definitely not manmade. Bimini inundation maps. Yes, I just want to say I worked with Dr. Glenn Milne, who's a

1:29:37 If you go back 4,800 years, bottom left, you can see that the Grand Bahama banks were submerged. But up until 6,900 years ago, We only have a fragment of the map. to see if it looks right or not. And so I think working with something like a GIS expert No, there's a huge extensive area. years old or so. But this is an area where there's a real problem, because in the literature

1:33:20 is being dismissed as totally natural and very recent. Could we add or drop Yeah well I remember when I first met you I was a film director with Steve Rasmus. Did he actually do that or was he just joking around about doing that? Yeah, please. roads. And so what you see when you look at Roman roads is you see pottery in the Yeah. virtually indestructible once it's high-fired. And so you know this is the

1:37:13 So calling it a road is an unfortunate term. You can't compare it to this road. Yeah, Adam Rabinowitz, UT Austin, you guys rock. They're fairly uniform in size. In many cases, and again, the contrary has been claimed, between man-made and natural. I think it looks really cool, but again, I've seen a lot of... I mean look to me I don't see anything that tells me that it's manmade is all I can say.

1:40:03 So there's a site that I worked with. this one example of a perfectly circular depression And it looks crazy, like someone took an apple core to the earth and it's completely natural. of the Ice Age, I want to address, Flint, the way that you dealt with the media about my work. So I noticed your attack on the Homan Aledi controversy on your YouTube channel. And that

1:43:09 from Flint's YouTube channel if that's alright with you Flint. Yeah feel free. Indeed so. I will criticize him about the author first. Eleven is the geologist. All the geography and the geologist. It's not the archaeologist. the outside, they waiting our research and they waiting what we say because they always You do have a small outreach on YouTube, but you have a much larger outreach with journalists and you've put yourself forward, you and John Hoops actually, as people the journalists should talk to. Now Gunung Padang was the first episode in my Netflix Ancient Apocalypse TV series.

1:47:04 on this. It went through a year of peer review before it was published until Flint and his colleagues findings were featured in my show. I think the about Flint's influence on media. You can't connect Flint to that. Go back to Can I make a quick comment about my media influence? A lot of my media influence has to do with you announcing this conversation.

1:49:48 I think that's kind of important for the people listening. Can we see that image again? I don't have it on me, but you can go back on there. We'd have to play It looks like it's been shaped by human hands. That's not how we identify human working. No, it looks like just a natural stone that looks eroded like that. it or go into any detail about it in the article. They just describe it in half of a sentence

1:52:35 and the media never ever went to him, which is why I got in touch with him because there's But that looks man-made. in those technologies, they are of the opinion. And we can see the and dismissed in the way that it has been. And what type of instruments were used? The evidence is the interpretation that Danny and his team, who are largely geologists,

1:56:02 I never called for the article to be retracted and it's still available online in its full text and all of its images there. Do you think done... So there's this megalithic architecture there, and he's gone down in all the different Here, let me get a photo. Danny doesn't dispute any of that for the depths to which Okay, so to summarize, these particular excavation sites are very clear 2,000 something...

1:58:43 No, there's much more. Past it, but we just don't have time to go there. I'm actually giving a presentation on worked by human beings. They have another area where they claim there's a step question mark, and I have never seen Right because we're not seeing the actual stone structures. We're not seeing the actual work. We're interpreting this ground

2:00:49 magnetometry, GPR, ground penetrating radar is here, Right. Okay. This is, okay, obviously we don't have time to get into depth, but... I want to complete what I was what I was saying which is the the influence that Flint and his colleagues have on on media critique by legit scientists and creators. People ask, here's just a Google search, So are you saying your quote is incorrect?

2:03:16 supremacism is, and encourages racism, is going to end up with me being tarred as a Because this idea of a white Atlantis is what existed in the 19th century. Can you be specific about that? was, you know, European and that was responsible for these monuments in indigenous areas. It's but listen, but you this is this this quote here of Atlantis that has gone back hundreds of years.

2:05:55 Did you actually say that though? So the quote, reinforce white supremacist ideas, that's not yours. article published in the conversation. This sort of race science is outdated and long sinks debunked, Look at the way it's phrased on your article. no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, That's near the end of it. But why is it up there like that? I put it there. You did it. Oh, Jesus.

2:08:29 from the area in Mexico. And yet the people that have excavated it and done the DNA right at that site at San and they do, I mean, be honest, they look either Polynesian or they look fascinating. archaeological knowledge in order to spread false historical narratives that are overtly misogynistic, Hey Netflix, hey Netflix, correct your mistake and reclassify ancient apocalypse as fantasy. Netflix corrects

2:11:30 and arrogant. calls it, acts to reinforce white supremacist ideas, Flint-Dibble interview, ancient apocalypse, narrative. No, but I'm denying there's a coordinated attack. How many architects were involved in this? Most Americanist archaeologists study much later periods. If they didn't listen to him, and they didn't take the data, and they did dismiss him,

2:14:21 There's assholes everywhere. of Kansas, I can play you some stuff from John Hoopes too if you want. People online, you mean? When you're public, OK, and you post something public, pharma. Do you think there's such a thing as big archaeology? You just told me you don't believe in the big archaeology, but right here you've said about the past. Now, you like to present yourself as this small lone voice, but frankly, by comparison

2:17:27 something interesting. Say something new. Say something interesting. Listen, this is Yes. The archaeology that's not And I've shown you the kind of big data Of course there were hunter-gatherers in the Ice Age. I mean, look, as I've said, I think you have an issue with the sources that you cite, and Right. I understand, but you said it. Yes, a lost civilization would not be choosing to live in Northern Europe during the Ice

2:20:22 and then he goes around and tells people it wasn't their ancestors that It could have very well been the ancestors of the people that were there before in the was an empire. It's you, not me, who say that that civilization, you know, had temples and I've made this point before, but if there was a cataclysm on our planet today, people from our so-called advanced technological

2:22:22 I'm not saying they had machines. I suggest you take a little bathroom break, clear our heads, relax, come back, and let's Yeah? Africans, whether they're Polynesians, or whether they're Maya. They could well be Maya. In the center is a picture of Pharaoh Khafre wearing the Nemes headdress, I mean Flint, what do you make of these figures? figures? Yeah, and people all over the world would do you see beards on these figures?

2:25:25 And I see this as actually an example of the problems here because you cite Spanish colonial Yes, I am. I can show you a depiction of Quetzalcoatl from the pre-Spanish period. I think that every single source that we have of white skin in indigenous Americas comes Bolivia are so stupid that they would simply accept and imposition upon them Okay. in the inks. Is there others of Quetzalcoatl from that period or before that? Yeah, there's

2:28:30 This refers to the multiple banners that are constructed to decorate the various to accomplish this. Well, the problem arose when a non-expert looked at these All because someone without adequate training only that but that they would heavily discourage deviation from the changes that they've made have hoodwinked an entire continent into making up myths.

2:31:34 Hello everyone. For example, the Quetzalcoatl myth that Graham frequently cites was written a hundred years after the conquest This is a completely different picture of Petzalcoatl beliefs are totally cool. I'm not going to convince you otherwise. Same with people listening. Let's move on. beings trying to impose their ideas on the people that they've conquered. It makes sense

2:35:07 I don't think it's hoodwinked, I think it's conquered. the kind of thing that we see painted on Iron Age pots. And so, you know, you can see how Which is why a Mexican speaks Spanish some of these traditions were recorded by Bernardino de Sahagun within 20 years of the conquest I'd like to pick up on this finally, on this issue of Quetzalcoatl and on Sahagun and on

2:37:24 with his extraordinary management skills, or that his literary craft was elegant and profoundly appearance 30 or more years after the conquest. The stunning implication is internalized as their own. That's true. Sure. This is not a slide. I'm very old tech. sensing. further than that. human beings? Is this what they're... What was that last image that

2:42:48 that's of interest to me. Right but what evidence is it that shows the deeper material has been I'm sorry. Just, what is it, Command-F? Yeah, this is the correspondence between him and the editorial team from archaeological And while we're on my website, I'd just like to say that I've recently put up a major article I would just like- No, I think we should get into this a little bit.

2:45:31 their knowledge to hunter-gatherers. And what I've done in this article is I've brought Dryas, not before the beginning of the Younger Dryas. There is an interesting development Gobekli Tepe, so if there's a transfer of knowledge, why are they not site for ceremony and ritual and perhaps not at all for people to live in? Harvesting these and so I sort of say they found an ecological niche and they've learned how to exploit this and to sort of stay

2:48:33 as like Washington DC. We have the ceremonial center in downtown and then And it's also the period where we can start to see the start of domestication. In fact there were some that were found by Klaus Schmidt before he found Gobekli Tepe exact same period. And how do you think they moved those things? certainly is in Egypt. Yes, Egypt's a bigger mystery and we can go into that.

2:51:34 According to the team working on the Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis, the destruction of of a site is destroyed suddenly from earthquakes, from volcanoes, from warfare, from fire, it that you have is after the fact. knocking over buildings. In one small landscape. It's hard to imagine how... But the traces you're talking about are stone tools and...

2:54:54 J. Harlan Bretz long before Randall Carlson. I mean the channel scaplands are chase here. Between 12,900 and 12,800 years ago, a very dramatic climate episode occurred area. Abu Hurairah, next to Quebec-Litepe, happens to be one of those areas and No, there is evidence for that. No, not the Tunguska event. I'm referring to the entire idea of the Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis.

2:57:41 I misheard him. I thought he was talking about... I apologize. hypothesis in Netflix is all wet. Here we have a post responding to that. Graham of this paper largely ignore, but who is a highly respected figure and in quickly accept it when you look at the credentials of the people in the comet research? I mean, that there's a huge amount of information in support of it. There we're looking at the

3:01:30 here he says in the light of the work at Abu Huraira, he says he's going to address his I am not a scholar that focuses on these kind of questions. excavating it now. Isn't Abba Herrera one of the first places that show evidence tiny little seeds of grains and beans and peas? Any idea, Joe? No. Okay, so you know how wood floats? continue. propagate itself by falling off the plant easily. reason for this is in wild plants like wheat or beans or peas, it's going to propagate

3:04:59 Because you're cutting off the plant taking it with you and then planting it somewhere else Yeah, so there's two different genes in rice, in every single grain species that we have domesticated. And so you can see this same exact transition as what happens. And you can see these statistics of it happening, it slowly proliferates every single time humans replanted in a new field.

3:07:39 see. The second sign is actually... How many thousands years does it take In fact, Gordon Hillman first worked out this would happen really rapidly, that it would take just a few hundred years for the population of these plants to change over. It's really cool because it's not human selection either. agriculture at all in the Ice Age. It doesn't have to do with a lost

3:09:33 to imagine that we might in an almost high tech sense be looking at the specifications They would go back to the wild form where if they're like if there was a disaster and people stopped growing them in this particular to hunter-gatherers again, and it takes a long time before they start using agriculture That's tough to tell because what we see is it's exactly at that time, at least in southwest

3:11:17 Yes, I agree with that. not. So this is the plants adapting to the fact that they're being planted in I mean I know we're in the middle of this crazy debate, but just the wonder of nature itself, and the different organisms that exist in the earth and that they're sharing resources Sure, yeah. Chuck it over here. Be careful. So how old is this? That's from about 800 years ago.

3:13:34 It's like one of my smaller fingers. We've grown like a farm now. So this, they're not exactly sure where they come from. That's so cool the flotation to collect the plants from this project when I was a student. So this is from a project, the very, I was actually doing the flotation to collect the plants from this project when I was a student and this is in

3:15:35 this is kind of a parallel. This is where we see this transfer of technology is And so there's not like an introduction of a new species that was not there. is what a palynologist, so those are people getting introduced and when they become common. We can track grains and when they like that. Instead, we see very natural landscapes, the type of landscapes that hunter-gatherers

3:18:22 It's also a period of aridity. Well, sure, but you have to imagine that a pollen core is actually tracking a larger and by the third day we already expanded the trench so that we could catch what we know finding tens of thousands of Ice Age sites that are hunter-gatherers? It's a Can I pick up on some points you've made, or are you not quite finished yet?

3:20:47 It never reached the stage of domestication. we're talking about a very small number of people. The myths speak of seven sages, again that's the elephant in the room. I think that what happened there during the Younger Dryas what was locally available. And that's precisely what we see happening after 12,900 years ago had agriculture beforehand, which as I'm trying to show, does not, it doesn't make any sense. You need to invent new species

3:23:42 towards domestication, which you rightly say is a long slow process. It doesn't happen overnight. It takes process a project that will lead to domestication of wild grasses. And that cannot be demonstrated before the Younger Dryas. It can only be area was introduced. Not the agriculture itself, not the plants themselves, It's not something you could do over that.

3:25:45 we've heard that right yeah we've had lots of cold periods in the past if you But they hadn't, but my point is they hadn't figured out anything that we figured out. All those things took place afterwards, right? years, they always move towards a more sophisticated, they figure out new ways, new methods, they So that's why we see agriculture showing up at different times in different places.

3:28:12 really key to demonstrate. I want to get to Egypt because I think it's one of the you see these massive fissures that look exactly like water erosion. He specifically said that he showed these images to other geologists without telling Surprise, surprise. Yeah. dive for the last 30 plus years. This is her aerial many years ago. You've had John on your show before. He's a dear friend of mine.

3:31:25 enclosure had been subjected to at least a thousand years of extremely heavy rainfall. And I want to pay tribute to Robert Shock here. He and I have had our differences, but Mercilessly, mercilessly. This happens again and again with archaeologists, unfortunately. Now, I'll just complete this point because two phases of construction there. There's the granite, no dispute that that's old kingdom

3:34:18 last words, beloved of the goddess Bastet and beloved of the goddess Hathor, are preserved. the Sphinx is strong. There's no doubt that the ancient Egyptians were there, it was proportion. And the disproportionate size of the head of the Sphinx in relation No, that's actually where I'd come and disagree with you. I have some photos as well. What's And so there's this very dense limestone

3:36:45 blocks of the pyramids have been radiocarbon dated and definitively tell workmen gangs that are in there. And these are in areas- Where did you get that information from? taken samples from the quarries themselves and from the stones in the pyramids. We're cutting into the quarry walls. Okay. Yes, that is modern. I think it's quite a bit too, but it doesn't really matter to me. I think whether geologists

3:40:18 That's not the most specific example of it though. If you show other examples of that But you're not denying that the climate radically changed in that area. It's much more extreme the ones that you have are from a distance and the other ones are kind of blurry and you're looking at would make sense that the softer layers would be more eroded. No, because a small amount of rainfall can also cause erosion, especially in a dry environment.

3:42:22 And we have dates on those blocks from radiocarbon dates of wood in between those blocks. There's an area where my work is Yeah, and what do you make of the hieroglyphs that show kingdoms going back 30,000 years? Well, but we'd want to have directly dated evidence of that. Right. that? So what year? Maybe 4,000 years ago. artifacts or seeds or food, we have nothing that dates back that old. The question is like, what

3:46:15 as Egypt. Here wait. I have this booted up in my Google if you want Jamie So that it can actually help move it and so it makes it actually doable to move something that large and so I mean pyramid to form the ceiling of the King's chamber and the floor and the But I find it difficult to see how your wet sand example gets 70 ton granite blocks 300 feet in the air.

3:49:12 But it's also, it's so different. and mysterious that we should not give credit to these people because they were is what counts as evidence? What can we regard as evidence? Archaeology dismisses the great the earth. And if we're going to find out when that was, you need to have knowledge Earth. and Hertha von Deschend, in an amazing piece of work called Hamlet's Mill, strongly dispute

3:53:00 They refer to the fact that a series of numbers keep cropping up in ancient myths all around numbers. They go back into the Rig Veda in written forms and much, much earlier than So at Angkor Thom, we've got 108 statues on the bridge. you'll only observe it then. You'll observe the sun rising directly over the central tower million blocks. Lost casing stones also came off in that earthquake. 115,000 of

3:55:54 and the North Pole. And most mysteriously of all, if you take the height of the Great but if anybody wants to freeze the frame and look at this slide, all this information comes head. If you were there at the summer solstice, you would see the sun rising very far to the left, It's an equinoctial marker. Hoover Dam has a star map built into it which freezes the skies above the

3:59:08 later by the ancient Egyptians. You need to know a bit about Egyptian mythology. The god incarnation of Osiris. And I want to pay tribute to Robert Boval. He's another line in the sky, in the epoch that the pyramids are supposedly built, around 2500 BC. And We find that the constellation of Orion is sitting due south on the meridian with its This is the due east view from Giza, looking at the constellation of Leo rising in direct

4:02:29 between the Sphinx and its equinoctial alignment and the constellation of Leo and between the great pyramids and to a few different ones. archaeology is built upon patterns. And so a one-off example to me is not convincing that that's And so what, I mean, I know that you did not originate with this math, but you use it a Because that's 72 times 600.

4:04:56 So I went to my own backyard, the Parthenon in Greece, and the Parthenon has 46 inner columns We all love 420, right? 99.91% accurate, more accurate than the height of the Great Pyramid. So every time you smoke what doesn't make sense to me is how do you think they And so there's different ways that they could have worked out what true north was. it is, humans built it. They did somehow, they made something that is so immense and so mind-blowing

4:08:29 You oftentimes see those drill marks, But it's coring it like what would you use to do that a drill made of copper or bronze and then sand and water? Oh yeah. is gazing at its celestial counterpart in the sky, and the Milky Way is in position over the Sphinx to this, which also puts it back to 12,000 years. And I think it's unfortunate that archaeology is so

4:10:53 I'm here to try to share the kind of evidence that we have and what archaeologists actually for sort of major hunter-gatherer monuments that is growing and really changing our picture yesterday, Wales, where I am right now there's a 20% across-the-board cut to happen. ancient Greek, Sanskrit, and Hebrew. And so this is a huge deal if you want to Anthropology classical studies and more and so please if we care about understanding these mysteries from the past

4:13:57 or it's funded through private donations. Is there better evidence that we're sick? I would like to, since you've had your moment here, Flint, or do you have more? I want to give a shout out to the World of Antiquity, Stefan Milo, Archaeology Tube. talk about why it matters that we study the past. When we look at scholarship and understanding not thinking that you can protect yourself. Because if you look at history,

4:16:51 Everything we do, whether it's trading stocks, deciding how to fix our plumbing, deciding Yeah, it's been an interesting conversation, Flint, and there's so much both from my campaign against back in the 2010s through until John Major Jenkins died in 2018. Does to do that. Why do we need to have this conflict? Why is it not possible to have multiple points of view on the past?

4:19:36 racism, and all the other stuff that's written about I've devoted 30 years of my life to this subject. the past? And is it not possible that something beautiful might grow out of that? have access to the people that are saying these things that they disagree with. designed to sit down and talk to each other. And I think so much of our world's problems,

4:22:32 which is very unproductive. unnecessary, especially at that level amongst kind, intelligent people that really just with archaeology for 30 plus years. But the thing that hurt me the most is this bizarre I'm going to pick you up on that I'd like to say right now is that in a show like this, about how we do this, and we need to talk about different aspects of that in a friendlier

4:25:14 Yeah, it's great. That societies like that don't exist? What happened? Let's talk, let's talk. Yeah, well Joe, thank you to you for hosting this first time ever kind of event. Bye. to Adler. People don't have to be at Adler. Don't have to be. Alright, bye everybody.