Joe Rogan Experience #2183 — Norman Ohler Transcript

Transcript

0:00 This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. My website, joerogan.com, is powered by Squarespace, of a website or domain. A great place to find those people is ZipRecruiter. for free. Again, that's ziprecruiter.com slash rogan. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. This is your book. which is quite outrageous actually. that. So I was looking at all the archives and at one point I was in the archive of the

4:05 substances and that was like that was not what I expected because the Nazis And he said, well, I'm very sorry, but all documents are in America because when American understanding that the Nazis had used psychedelics you know you only knew that under Hitler everything was in order like he praised that law and order aspect and that law So it was kind of, I really was wondering whether Nazis are already getting their hands

7:05 Well, ergot is the alkaloid of the fungus which grows on rye. Like they started after the first World War. Europe. Unwittingly people were eating like contaminated bread, were having horrific visions, actually limbs fell off because this so he immediately hit the jackpot. He became like the ergod god of the pharmaceutical world. Yeah, this is all the ergot kind of research.

10:06 it in Switzerland. Like they went into a specific region called the Emmental which was famous and rye was only like seven francs a kilo, Sandus in Basel, Switzerland had huge amounts of Urgot in their storage and he thought if I take lysergic acid diethylamide, lysergic acid being the acid within the ergot, like drinking, like being on coffee the whole time, you know. So the stimulant was what

13:12 very, very low dose, what he thought, 250 micrograms. But as we know today, that's Like on LSD you don't have a strong physical reaction but you have a very strong mental mistake with a dosage then they repeated it and then they actually They all could come into this room and take LSD. the first time I feel connected to my human, to my fellow human being.

16:25 They gave it to a depressed patient. I also studied these reports, like a depressed Swiss which is an American company, their name referring obviously to the Greek ritual, and they had I bring this white paper to my father because my mother suffers from Alzheimer's. is a big leap for him, but you know he's a rational thinking man so I looked at this white paper,

19:32 That was my working title for the book and I think it's a better title. That's a good title If the Germans would have called it LSD für Mama, it would be called LSD for Mom in America, Yeah, it's great. Because it's true, you So she gave her consent and she started using LSD once in a while, you know, not chronically molecule, actually psilocybin is very similar to the LSD molecule. On Mother's Day we gave her a little piece

22:19 It's so fascinating there's so many people suffering from Alzheimer's in the world and But so this is what has to happen with psychedelics now because we are moving. 2013 I just couldn't because I love it so much. So if you take psychedelics, every time you take psychedelics, your neuroinflammation system is very expensive to treat dementia, like put them in homes, whatever.

26:48 Because it's kind of weird. can go this much with stimulating your brain, but you're not allowed to go further. You can only believe in this. I'm sure you're familiar with the guy. prohibition failed and his federal bureau of narcotics was about to be extinct because It was a slang for a Mexican wild tobacco. that defends America from the scourge of foreign influences which is drugs in

31:12 and he knew that the jazz musicians This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. can help you find candidates with the right skills. for your role, whatever it is. black men smoke reefer they think they're as good as white men and they're going to So that guy really did a lot of damage in my mind to the American society. billion dollar crop of the future.

35:09 So this machine, they would run the hemp stalks through it, and it would break them down far he also owned paper mills. So he had thousands and thousands of acres of trees and forests that they Literal textile that created canvas all the great works like if you look at you know in the state of California growing medical marijuana. He had a stalk on his table of

37:55 it takes forever to grow enough trees in that acre to grow blacks and Mexicans were smoking this new drug and raping white women, right? When people find out that you have taken marijuana or that you regularly enjoy marijuana, people There's sanctioned drugs that are far worse for you. We think, like, people who are against drugs, they kind of vote, they kind of say we stand

40:35 and history, I was, I'm now trying to come up with a more, with a larger narrative. And It's a hypothesis, but I think that a lot speaks for this hypothesis. apes. a mushroom, maybe it was iboga, which is something still used in African societies and which So this is at narrative, there's the Western narrative which also includes Europe, there's the German narrative,

44:52 But if you could imagine a lower primate interacting with a higher consciousness on a regular basis more community. But the researchers that were taking this are saying we are psychedelics, actually, because they didn't sign all the UN treaties because they're Or you can see the changes that happen in psychedelics, and what happens is that the Where is this, this is cool?

48:23 And actually under psychedelics, So what happens in your brain is actually, it is actually a change in the brain chemistry experienced. but it's a fact that neuroplasticity is enhanced and because of this kind of orthodox thought forms, like depressed people always think The first study that showed this clinical study was done in 2015 actually in America

51:30 There was actually a lot of hope in the beginning that original enthusiasm by Sanders that I dangerous proper you know this propaganda when I was in high school was Well, there are people like that. That is true people like that if you fall into the opiate crowd yeah if you fall Just like you can abuse alcohol. LSD is actually a non-addictive drug. For example, in Germany now we legalize cannabis. It's

54:42 LSD, like so many people are afraid of it. psychedelic substance? Yes, there was mescaline. Mescaline was already kind of investigated There were quite a lot of assassination attempts on his life. He survived them all. secrets they wanted to extract from prisoners, especially Polish resistance fighters had when the Nazis took power. Like how did the SS know like and did they really test LSD also in Dachau or was it just mescaline?

58:46 And when I was in the archive of Sandoz, I wanted to find like papers, like did they sell LSD to the in the archive, but a company archive like Novartis archive, there was no find book. Like I had learned – I had known a lot about Albert Hoffman and I never heard anything about him having Nazi Well the first time I was there, he said, why is everyone always so interested in LSD?

1:01:11 And it's very easy to flatter, like it stuns you. I visited this guy on the mountain. to me, well, sorry, tomorrow I have too much work. You cannot come anymore, kind of like And then I asked him, do you want to see it? he said, this is the logo of our old company, how is this possible? And I said, well maybe It's legit. And I said, yeah, actually, I would be interested in seeing the paper of the CEO of Arthur Stoll.

1:05:05 And Wilstetter was this genius who also received the Nobel Prize and who had found out that, ergod research. where Kuhn thanks Stoll for sending ergotamine, which is the precursor to LSD. for finding German nuclear scientists and interviewing them about their research for So in the spring of 1945 and liberated Heidelberg after World War II, Kuhn is being interviewed.

1:08:29 because there was not enough time. Dachau was already liberated. They were in the middle working on brainwashing techniques. the SS, the German system was a very evil system, obviously, but it was a very functional From him the knowledge goes to the American military and then intelligence apparatus that and he made a report called Report on Ego-depressant

1:11:54 MKUltra is basically a program first to see whether LSD could be used as a weapon. It's in the book That's what the Sandos had to, you know, basically assure him. He had the most LSD and then he had the idea to really look at how LSD can be used to manipulate people, basically. Foundation. Like a university wants to make like some pharmaceutical, you know, test series that

1:15:50 program which then I guess was called MKUltra and that's also that's Can you deprogram a brain with LSD? The safe houses, there was one in the West Yeah, that's in Telegraph Hill in San Francisco. Sounds good. But if you put your mind into their perspective back then trying to understand the effects that there are these threats from the Soviet Union, and there were threats from the Soviet

1:20:05 helpful medicine instead of being kind of an unhelpful weapon because it never What are these powerful tools that could be used against us? 1968 with the anti-war movement. You know, the free Palestine movement has a lot in common with an anti-war movement. The free Palestine movement has a lot in One of the first questions they'll ask is, what do you do?

1:22:24 It's like they can't believe you. We're doing the hardest work in the world because we're And we have one case history in which afterwards when he was already retired but bad for the power structures that are in place currently, they step in and they I mean, that's why John Lennon guy called Ken Kesey was working at a psychiatric and drive around the country with his friends and dish out LSD. So it's kind of a, he made

1:26:39 LSD, but poor LSD. are all connected. We need each other, we are a part of each other, and we should You have the media, you have the Joe Rogan experience, you have a discourse and you have We need positive global communication because we have a lot of negative global communication. We have two, I mean two very prominent wars right now and a lot of other conflicts

1:29:04 if you have money you want more money. If you have power, you want more rational, logical people that understand the consequences of these And then society crumbles, things fall apart, it's no longer the center of intellectual you know. It's about basically including the other and not being afraid of the other and with a finite lifespan. Their experience on earth would be greatly enhanced if

1:32:11 Society would move there in September, like they would go there, they would have We need something. And it's really easy to run a cult if everyone in the cult is naive and they're looking for a experiencer who is Well, they have a possibility. Well, just one experience. research. setting an intention before you do these things. trapped in the momentum of their actions and all the life that they've lived up until this

1:37:21 change. I think somehow people are ready for a revolution, but no one knows exactly what kind of revolution it should be. So people who tap into that are Western free society to have a chemical wall in the brain. There can always be a so-called revolution. revolution from this podcast. Well, I think it has to be done everywhere with everyone. They have to demand

1:39:36 and we know how to prescribe them correctly. We should apply that same logic to psychedelics. We should become the psychedelic pharmaceutical powerhouse But I think it's also these guys are a little bit of the past. That makes me a little bit optimistic. that before. If you have control of the newspaper, and especially back then with hers publications, there's very

1:42:07 It's like a stage that you've created. Yeah, I think so. Because the concept was right. Graham Hancock and say, hey, tell me about ancient civilizations. I think it was like 2011 or 2012. and I still do is I don't look at the numbers. I don like, oh. One of the things that I used to do and I still do I don't, that's up to them. I know it's a stupid hippie thing to say it sounds ridiculous

1:45:09 Well, you shouldn't have gatekeepers. You shouldn't have someone who your, the narrative you'll attack them with a very specific narrative that gets repeated over and over and over they didn't even know they wanted it until they got it. I mean, it's thought when we first started making podcasts that everyone was moving with scientists that get 50 million views.

1:47:28 That's why I'm actually active in this field. I think there might be similarity between a podcast this book. That's not really available in most places anymore. But people want that I thought that's why you had me here. That was kind of funny to me because that was really speaking to an audience I usually What do you wanna know? winning I think five gold medals. The rumor was he must be on something similar

1:50:51 a better amphetamine, like a better than the American amphetamine. So Houshiel thought, I'm going to make a new methamphetamine. of methamphetamine. And it was cheap also and you got it. It was branded as Pervitin. going to get to this in a second, for the military. But if you were a national socialist, you thought that was good, basically. So people loved meth.

1:53:57 it was, they called it performance enhancing, performance enhancing substance. So that's a neutral term, you know. They made studies Like in 2010 I'm asking a friend of mine who's a DJ in Berlin, Alex is his name, I said to The Reich being a propaganda term by the Nazis. And that antique dealer was a friend of Alex the DJ. of drugs, he also took it. And he told me this in my writing tower in Berlin. He said,

1:57:01 I said this is insane, you know. And I contacted this academic, he was at the University of Ulm, I traveled down there, all archives are in Berlin. For example the military archive is in this small town called And basically his job was to enhance the fighting capability of the soldier. you know, you don't sleep as much, you know, it keeps you awake because all your dopamine is

2:00:25 Because there's this saying from Napoleonic times, the last 15 minutes in a battle, that's officers for the German army. it's kind of funny, can you pull that up? Yeah, this one. That's the American stimulant, which is not as potent as methamphetamine. I mean, methamphetamine this is like a taken at 4.15 in the morning, Well, you see in front of him the pervitin person.

2:03:14 Well, in any case, maybe go one picture down. but it makes you a little bit dumber. Like things that are really that demand like abstract, a soldier just needs to follow orders. He just needs to shoot for a long time, you know. He didn't get it basically, so he said we're not using this in the attack on Poland. himself. They said things like, and I studied all these reports for Blitzt and I'm quoting some of

2:07:09 But his high command was saying, let's please not do it, because the French army, la Grande a lot of repairs because even in a successful campaign you lose a lot of machinery, you a coup attempt in November 39 against him which failed. And then he had a breakfast good thought, but where are we going to do it? And they said, we're going to do it in an area.

2:09:44 and France, where the French Allies were massing their defense forces, and France Belgium, the mountains, the French border town of Sedon. than the defenders. not because you are convinced of an idea you don't need to sleep. And another fact is that of people who just said, we're going to lose, you know. then Ranke thought, this is my calling now, this is my hour. And he presented his findings that actually you don't need

2:13:16 or ordered or it was suggested to them to take a powerful synthetic stimulant, which There's another paper I found which shows how many dosages then the German army ordered So everyone in these tanks was basically high on crystal meth, like all the way through had sort of, not a stimulant decree, but they had the rule that in a war situation, and night and left and right are kind of the French soldiers kind of sleeping basically and he just fires with the tank left and right and he runs over people and

2:16:45 Wow. Isn't it incredible that that's not taught in school? I met him, I showed him my findings from the archives and he's like, we overlooked this So he was very much behind it and wrote a preface to the German edition also. So it was interesting to communicate with him obviously about it because he helped me World War II would have been very, very different.

2:19:25 Great Britain. They were part of the evil axis. So Japan had knowledge that methamphetamine was successfully used was called a health-führer. He was like an enemy of Pavitin because he said... He like Nazi Germany was a very, you And they actually made tests in England comparing methamphetamine with amphetamine and decided for the German army in Stalingrad, actually. He was in Stalingrad and he said he still

2:23:39 form of meth that's a brand name that's very popular actually in the Middle East. And I had found a paper from April last year, April 23, was a report, you can find it online When the terrorist attacks in Paris happened, they found amphetamines. Whoa. And CaptaGone has a similar effect to methamphetamine? to stay awake for, let's say, 50 hours, and not only stay awake to stay awake for let's say 50 hours,

2:26:25 So when you're on meth, you're less afraid. Adderall is obviously amphetamine and there was I think somewhere in the neighborhood What did you just say? Yeah, right. He was using a lot of amphetamines. I heard that Jack Kerouac wrote on the road comedy and they say it's absolutely terrible. Maybe. Can you manage that? what's the dose what's effective what's not effective and also strategies for

2:30:45 drug, you know, until in the end you land with heroin. That's the real one because alcohol lowers your inhibitions. It's like one plus one equals three basically. So here it is. econeine, methyl ester. the effect that this had on one of the most historically significant events in human history, Studied the notes of his doctor his doctor's personal physician Theodore Morrell,

2:34:15 patient and then there was a spaghetti dinner with Morel and Hitler and Hitler was complaining that basically no one had looked at these papers. Like Hitler is the most examined person Because from 36 when they met, and Morel was with him at the Olympic Games until 41 basically Hitler only received vitamins vitamin C vitamin B1 Yep, a little bit before.

2:36:31 Hitler didn't like specialists in general. that his her husband became the personal physician of Hitler. She said to him like, this time. Like he had a pretty good health in general, except from the bloating because months. So they were right in front of Moscow. So he was, you know, maybe drank bad water or something. I mean, Hitler was lying in bed and the generals were deciding on that important military briefing

2:40:30 And that opioid, you know, is a different ball game than vitamins. gets the monopoly for all the organs of all the slaughtered animals in all of the slaughterhouses Yeah, I mean, he experimented, he had like his own pharmaceutical company by the time, So he said this to Hitler, like, I'm developing all these new medicines from all these organs This is exactly what happened.

2:43:27 We need these wagons for like war sensitive stuff, you know. all these hormones and, you know, crazy stuff. And then in 43, because he's doing so poorly, like an ounce of liver a day is probably the right amount but injecting pig liver. before the meeting and felt betrayed because Mussolini wanted to leave the war effort. And he asked Morel again for something stronger and then Morel for the first

2:47:01 got it injected before the meeting with Mussolini on the way to the But he couldn't get out. sold in America as pills, crushed and sniffed whatever, you know, So that's what he wanted. charisma in the meantime, but through Oikodale he could reinstall his charisma being good for his like horrific vision, you know. Wow. Yeah. And you can look at, you

2:50:24 It does. Yeah. It's totally crazy actually. Because it has such a profound effect on the way you think and behave. I mean he was sitting there and the bomb was like on the other side of the table leg and end, May 8th, 1945 when the war ends, that is his heaviest drug consumption because then and this doctor came in and he wanted to give the cocaine because it was something to numb

2:53:36 And actually on cocaine he developed the strategy of a second Ardennes Offensive. We talked Like the doctor started competing. Hitler because obviously there were these plans, you know. So let's just say they would have had an efficient leader, would have been more dangerous basically He received it every other day in a very high dosage, 20 milligrams intravenously of the

2:56:38 one mistake the dealer should make, make the client hooked and then you can't supply anymore. Reich kind of crumbled in on itself. harmin. A little high. It does. Even if you're in the bunker losing World War II, you still kind of crave that sugar of JFK? Didn't he have a doctor that were prescribed some sort of amphetamines to him as well? JFK is a very interesting case.

2:59:40 Yeah, you talked about that with Jesse Waters. he was known as the, you know, he was still employed by Harvard. She was probably too, quote unquote, left for him. She didn't disclose who this powerful friend was. He should do it when there's maybe he doesn't have to go on camera anymore that day, you that JFK was quite a hawk. in America and he gives a presence

3:03:46 And that day of her death, she was jogging in Washington close to her apartment. military industrial complex who are like based their whole thing on suddenly gets a little And I really hope everybody goes out and buys your books. So Tripped and Blitzed is the other one? It is great to read, but sometimes people are stuck in traffic. Well, when is this next book that you're working on going to be out?

3:06:24 Bye, everybody.