Joe Rogan Experience #2184 — Sara Imari Walker Transcript

Transcript

0:00 Need more hot takes? Head to the FanDuel Sportsbook app. They've got more ways to bet, more ways Yeah. intuitively obvious that the universe doesn't generate complex objects for Wow. in Mexico where they have these insane crystal structures? But it kind of looks like somebody made it. boundary above which if molecule is so complex that we can say it's definitively

3:18 Yeah, so there's a lot of debate about what definitions of life should hold, but the one that is usually cited by astrobiologists is life is a self-sustaining chemical system capable And it's actually like all the words in it conception of nature I could draw there is we don't think that gravity is a chemical phenomena. And I think you need to recognize that if you're going to

5:31 I like that a lot actually I don't disagree with that yeah especially if it because I always think about like societies and like global integrated systems as being way. And if you think that these cars are all carrying people that are assembling this were the dominant life form which I I think is great, great, right? so much wanting to think about ourselves as individuals and like the apex of all of the evolutionary processes, not to think about ourselves as part of systems that are much larger than us.

8:23 Right. Right. I've often said that if an alien race that war, which is essentially about acquiring money and resources, we use those resources I think because I think being overly optimistic that you're really terrified about do not come to pass. I don't have to worry about those things enhancing the actual threat so they could profit off of it. They make money.

11:06 What's wrong with me? I don't know. But I think that's also built into materialism. Don't you want a new one? sort of our materialistic culture is about building newer and better things but it's not necessarily more boring than their normal life. Oh, look at this car. things look cooler and you know like the way my wife looks at dresses and stuff it's like

13:20 maybe hinting at something deeper. or time for all of them to exist. without things like us. it will generate life, Like, over the course of hundreds of millions of years, the climate will change, things humans We have no evidence. And we tend to do it from a very anthropocentric lens where we'll say, it will be like us. So when you're thinking about the emergence of life, is the only way to do it, I mean,

17:01 They've been around as long as us, right? Like octopi. to host a show called Apex Predator. He said, they're aliens. as far as trying to look at I don't know. They're making a lot of progress tank in the center. Like when you walk in, I go, dude, trust me, that's gonna be such a headache. No, I haven't. It's one of the dopest places. So that thing is a damn nightmare.

19:44 Yeah, they're amazing. Where's its brain? know used to even mean physically large, like, you know, like you can look at the Hubble Deep Field could with those atoms it would fill 1.5 universes in volume. I'm not ready to take because I just I think the universe is far larger and the kind of living things that could exist Right. The overwhelming possibilities,

23:20 whatever is going on in the human brain. I don't know if it why the human brain size doubled over a period of two million years yeah and or Australia, which is a fantastic example, resources and birth rates. There's all this this sort of Again, optimists. I love us. I think part of the challenge is actually thinking about like the levels of organization

26:42 happen just in one environment. It happens in all environments. like cephalopods and plants and fungi and us. And if life wants to get off this planet, into us. We have this idea of exploring the universe. So wouldn't something else have Would you fuck with it? We do, we do it with animals all the time. Yeah. We make different kinds of. That? Yes, 100%. Yeah. We do, we do with animals all the time.

28:34 Yeah. So like if you value plants more than animals and you want you want to eat plants then you're valuing, Yeah. to stay out of the slaves. Do you have a car? The fact that they have different dialects that they speak in different areas different accents different way they ways they can we don't even know realize the potential of it. Yep. Yeah, because you can't remember everything.

31:41 with a sensory deprivation tank, think there's a lot of progress in animal communication, but I think we're very far And if they don't match, we think they're not intelligent. Yeah I would I would say it's certainly possible that they're communicating Yeah, and then just like survive in our environment, right? Before we came along, there was an abundance of fish.

34:11 Yeah, yeah, for sure. we don't really understand what it's like mean if there was some sort of an integrated VR that gets to like a real like matrix sort Not just like, wow, I can see the ocean in my language. I mean, most places have a plant in every room. And it's like the plant's experiencing the room right it. What must it be like to be a plant? Most places have a plant in every room,

35:39 so to speak, or their morphology is like their shape When they interact with each other and kind of wrap around each other and hug each other? wide These are the aliens we'll never meet because they had no reason to go out and explore and That's crazy. garbage on the street and crazy homeless people. That's so crazy. And I think that- No. in particular, they report much higher levels of satisfaction and happiness, less depression.

39:20 yeah, it's pretty bad. While they were filming, he had to shoot a grizzly bear that was trying to kill his dog who's out there in the woods hunting caribou. Does he read a lot? what do I need to do to stay alive another day? and you've dedicated 25 years of your life to this company, whereas this guy, he knows what he's gonna do tomorrow. we lose our connection to that existential reality that like our lives are finite and I

42:14 like the oldest fossils that we can identify So like 4 billion years ago we kind of had Earth as we understand it. But we really don't know. There's a lot of- So what are the primary theories? There's a lot of speculation. So RNA kind of does a dual role so people think oh maybe it happened So it had like selection had to happen, evolution had to happen before life.

44:42 because we just don't know what they look like right now. the physics of life and the way that we've transition has something to do with the emergence of systems that basically can And so experiments are being done to try to... digitize chemistry and try to raise the funds to actually do the experiment so Whoa. Yeah, so I mean there are benefits to that, right?

47:41 because you imagine that now you have the ability like when we're thinking about artificial intelligence Biological life, chemical life. a few hundred years from now, I think there's ethical concerns right along the way. And I don't know that I know immediate I think we need to solve this problem will look at the kind of ethical things that you're talking about will be

50:25 we conceptualize who we are and what we're doing. But I think, I don't know, I totally lost my train of thought. Oh, I see. Yeah, and you were asking about quantum information. Yeah. And if we actually understand chemistry and you're being a cephalopod and then you I think, yeah. I think also intergenerationally we're already doing that. that's, you know, part of the progression of understanding and the fact that the world

54:12 But yet we're still the same biological creature. It's more comfortable just to have that inside your body. So then you don't lose it. Yes, right The car, you have to have a, I don't know how to get anywhere without my navigation I remember very distinctly when it emerged. Mind blowing. and YouTube comes along. Yeah. The hair was great. The hair was interesting.

56:41 Imagine this and that and Israel and Gaza and whoa, whoa, whoa. Totally did that. Well, I think, I don't know, like you don't know, you don't know what the Made outfits and vacuums and we recognize those and that was like predicted a hundred years ago, right? Mm, interesting. Yeah. And this is actually a fundamental feature being like, you know, super interesting and very relevant.

59:41 and building mathematics? Well, all our clocks before that were based on sun. That's a good question. to see a mechanical clock. Because like you're saying, our clocks before were based on like sand or shadows or water. tourbillon movements so that they're not they're not affected by gravity. Yeah. also have quartz involved in the movement so their accuracy is insane to

1:02:32 So look how thin it is. But that's all, that is also a Grand Seiko. Complexity of the gears and then they also have clear windows over the movement so you could stare at it while it's like doing its But look at the watch, that watch is several hundred because the dive watch or the spring drive is accurate that it's not affected by gravity but it doesn't improve accuracy. Okay, so the idea is that it's not affected by gravity, but it doesn't improve accuracy

1:05:11 So the movement of your hand, And as you move it around, that's what causes it to have the power to keep going Look at that. Wow. Is that how it solved it? The problem with that is a lot of people don't set their date correctly. Like you can't even see, I can't read that. But some becomes a full moon and a half moon, Love it. Yeah, that's not it in the bottom of the watch. I love the phases of the moon.

1:08:43 Click on the one where you just had your cursor. It's so cool. Yeah, but it's just an amazing piece of human ingenuity And when you think about what could possibly become of advanced life if we could exist I think we are becoming more integrated with our technology. if, you know, like, if other subsequent architecture And there's billions of ribosomes on this planet,

1:10:53 But I do think the idea that we're not like what does it mean to integrate though? So like already in this that you have to hold a nine to five job Most of us couldn't survive on our own. And then we're going to become more integrated with that system. Yeah. And I think when you look at that guy who lives in Antarctica, or in the Arctic Circle, I mean that is like, they're two completely different animals.

1:13:37 environment like what's happening to them it's just totally different. How as a cultural discussion. intersect with it. And so there's there needs to be a lot of discussions about Yeah, that's the problem. So I find it interesting. But science fundamentally is about shared knowledge and the ability to like have a joint answer the question of what is an alien. There's also a fundamental problem of

1:16:45 you should discuss it, you should try to figure out that they're dealing with top secret programs that could get them in great and military contractors. Yes. and it's like a million UFO sightings. I would swear that was from another planet. and you see this thing fly overhead, and itdale and you see this thing fly overhead and it's like it looks like something Batman owns

1:19:10 Yes, exactly. Yeah, but I do find it exciting that so many people want to talk about UFOs and are like really excited about the possibilities for Oh my god, the most epic we We're responsible for every single thing. the same way we're willing to take a chance Because they got here, we can't get there. years away I mean the closest planetary system is probably you know about four

1:21:40 that long. Based on sort of extensions of current theories and burning coal and riding horses. Yes. You know creating the kind of technologies that you're describing we will be so fundamentally different in the process observe aliens yet and second off it doesn't seem it becomes another new thing. And I think... when I go, why do we have these fragile feet?

1:25:38 But my thought is that our biological existence Yes. And instead of doing that, why don't we figure out a way our environmental issues. other humans as human. Sure, I mean, that's the whole concept of the other, right? We only have a certain amount of people And then you have all kinds of people that have a parasocial relationship with you and But it's also, I feel like, that sort of connection with people,

1:28:52 And so like this transition phase and like why are podcasting becoming so popular, I Yeah, it goes on my phone and that's it and then so I start watching some of the conversations you had I think we should all be more excited about things. like all the models and what this movement I mean, but I love when people are really excited Yes. Yes, it's just fascinating.

1:31:42 I think about alternate histories all the time. That's like the massive mystery of human civilization itself we live in right now. But you have to have theories of the past So they probably had written down how they did everything, and some assholes came along So can you even imagine what was lost? If we knew what they knew the amount of advancement just

1:33:43 They believe they have evidence of So like we're still trying to figure out what they did. There's a guy named Christopher Dunn, who's an engineer, and he has the wildest theory. like pounding on the stone and creating a certain vibration. And then they had these I mean, that's a phenomenal piece of architecture. It's a nutty theory. Like this is how science works

1:37:01 power from the Earth and space itself. How'd you figure that How how do you know why because where would they put the power? Yeah. and how would you actually look to have radioactive waste or anything. Like you can actually like bound We take that for granted now, but everybody And then he was able to derive relativity from that. You try to build a theory from the observational evidence

1:40:04 then we should be able to have a measurable consequence. And then you can derive all kinds of weird shit from that. Yes. Totally crazy. like telescopes and microscopes and you know, like we think we knew life on this planet, and then we invented the microscope, and it's like, you know, just, you don't need that much more resolution, and then look and be like, oh, biology's made out of cells.

1:42:17 where it's both still and moving at the same time. like we're just emerging from it the same way the the ability to see things was this emerging technology this emerging Psychic phenomenon is one of the things And all of a sudden they feel you and they call you. There's something trippy to that. from the same evolutionary architecture, have the same kinds of sensory apparatus to like

1:44:44 actually has a time and size, it means that like every living object in this So if you assume a living object actually has a time and size, on all the time that we don't even recognize. a huge Joseph Campbell fan and like thinking about like the history of what will happen is the stories that we're telling become embodied in the so when I say I don't believe in magic,

1:47:03 I think those are incredibly valuable, and I think that we need those stories in our culture. It's just for I've often entertained the idea of, And he wrote this book called The War of Art. it's just crazy. Yeah I almost always think of my best ideas and if you do this every day, she will reward you. it behaves like a real thing. to guide how you think about the world,

1:49:34 it seems like it came from nowhere. We think of things that we can describe with language and processes that we examine with They're conscious, but they're not attached to language. because I think a lot of us construct words architecture is really different. And I love working on deep foundational about the nature of reality, Yeah, I think it's like 4% but I don't know.

1:51:50 It's up to 60% but I've tried to look into this many times. So everybody just thinks their mind is normal. Right, right. They just have a different way. Like some people will look at a problem go. Why is that? What about this thing? to anybody else who work out of the world. kid can eat anything. anything. Ghost peppers, like Wow, wow. Yeah, we're like some people love the taste of hot dogs

1:55:05 unpleasing manner. We'd be lost. And then they could only see the world in black and white. And you start paying attention to different detail. Oh, really? I, yeah, I like to, you know, when I started thinking And this was really perplexing to me can't. It's just not in your head. Well the sense of smell we take for granted. I don't even know if he got his smell back.

1:57:41 Crazy. Oh, it's coming, it's coming. We don't have the ability to detect But we do have the tools for smells. because we have built technologies in all sorts of ways. because you're being pulled, which is bizarre. and your ability to move through space and time world. current laws of physics on kind of equal footing as far as their ability to explain why the

2:01:08 And, and I think, you know, the nuance there is like, if any entities like us Yeah, I completely agree. in anything. and to build this kind of mysticism So I think I'm much more interested in like what is the what is the unification of the virtual and the physical and like how? Can you think about them as as similar kinds of systems then to just say the universe is a simulation

2:03:16 But what could possibly exist to make everything exist, which is the other one. Yeah. I don't, and I'm also of the perspective that I think any theory can be replaced And so I confront this a lot in my work because the kind of ideas we're proposing are new been to a meeting on the origin of life? It's like, that problem is not solved. I'm sorry. do know it, we understand it, is in

2:06:10 that we've been doing, both positive and interacting you. And part of the reason that I want the ideas out there is because I want because they think they have totally different explanations for things. I should just pick a standard biology problem. tell you not to look into the origin of life. Yeah. Because the idea that we have we don't know what we mean when we say that.

2:08:29 that human beings have ever created came out of an idea. If I let go of it and it springs, what if I could tie a string and what if I could pull and they create more and more complex versions. Then you get quantum computing. It's not like one person's idea Paper, alcohol, everything. it's just because, you know, like they're not physical objects I lifted the dirt out. I made the hole. So if someone says, where'd that hole come from? I go, oh, I dug that hole. Yeah, I know I stuck that shovel. I exerted effort. I put Yeah, I lifted the dirt out. I made the hole so if someone says where that hole come from I go

2:10:55 It's weird. Now imagine that someone figuring out an airplane, like some Wilbur Norval writer. It's time. And time is actually the creative mechanism that's expanding the space of possibilities things that people have discovered, you're essentially interacting with their time. I think about time and information kind of being the same thing, but we're just all of

2:12:57 So if you could do a zoom out of the entire universe this kind of perplexing feature of these these things seem abstract well they're not they're It's so fabulous, we have a giant moon. Yeah. Look at the moon. No, it's incredible. possible. Probably. Well if we can reconstruct the past based on our current understanding, which is fairly and they understand the iridium content

2:16:27 that the universe has done, you also And that computer has to be able to persist long enough going to say infinite resolution, but it does so because the act of forgetting things for other things to be created. I think mathematics is a physical system But it doesn't mean that it has universal reach. there could be non-Euclidean geometries and we just never imagined them because, like,

2:19:13 Have you thought about it? Well, I worry about this a lot with the nature about a minimal complexity for a computer program But the universe generates these molecules that are computationally incredibly complex, and the space is actually a lot larger Like, if the universe genuinely creates novelty something about the physicality of objects. I think about like what life is, like why does life exist, I think the universe is trying

2:22:29 Because if we act independently, we're actually more creative than if we we didn't yeah Do you ever butt heads with determinism people? I put heads with everyone that challenge you is so critical. I think we have a huge problem as human beings is we attach ideas to ourself and so we defend Good for you, too Yeah. is like, then we stop looking at them.

2:24:35 Right now I'm a presentist. information is like an abstract thing. Like how can you think mathematical So that's an object. but there is some underlying undeterminism and novelty mechanism in chemistry that life seems to be you know like really But what you've done is stripped that physical system of all the time inside of it, right? And then once we exist, we're encoding all of that history

2:27:29 have some navigability over the combinatorial space It's like really funny. actually have more causal control simplistic. Yeah I mean to think that the universe is all like one human concept talking about before like maids will probably still be present 50 years from And you think that these decisions are made entirely I always find that very mysterious.

2:29:45 Like it feels like a thing to do. Yeah. Yeah, I think the issue about why people It doesn't live in the physics of gravitation We have a tendency to think physics is complete. that they thought physics was complete. like then there was general relativity and quantum students and like how we talk about where we are now in history? has a very bright future of having some really

2:32:31 you know, the guys that were around 100 years ago, of the world around us, the changing sets of observations. not having control. But now in a modern technological society, we see how much of reality we've and our ability to build technologies based on our abstractions and, like, what we're Known universe, yeah. You glossed over this but I want to get back to it sure why don't you believe in infinity? Oh, so

2:34:40 And it doesn't make any sense because I think if you assume, you know, like there's an infinity no infinite possibilities of a multiverse. Those are Abstractions that exist in human minds that allow us to think about how the world works and reason in what we can actually So I think we could be saying the same. like, you can't even talk about it because you can't even imagine what it is.

2:36:54 to anything that we can't observe directly. as physical things? our universe has constructed that enables things to be possible that wouldn't be possible without mathematics existing. some physicality to it. And I, and I, I just, I want to explain us. Right. And it's probably the case, especially if you think the universe is constructed, or itself. The universe is constructing itself from moment to moment, and you know, and we

2:40:58 It's getting larger and larger and larger because there's so much combinatorial structure, Right. literal God's eye view of the universe and describe it objectively from the outside. different theories of quantum mechanics. the observer. space? Why do we? I don't know. But I mean, I like the why questions. I was also told by like a really Yeah. And I think, you know, you have to be able to follow what you rationally

2:44:12 or read about it. I am such a fan of it, to try to find aliens in the lab. I love that. I know. How does someone find you on Twitter? I don't use that one as much, but it's fun. All right, bye everybody. Bye.