Joe Rogan Experience #2213 — Diane K. Boyd Transcript

Transcript

0:00 Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. Well, it's very nice to meet you. I'm not going to lie. And so I was interested from the beginning with that. And then when I went growing up till I was about 15 so I had this come this passion for canines in You said Idaho was the only other place that had them? nothing is here. they got down to just a father, daughter team,

3:26 or wait for the lake to freeze again, people call these wolves super wolves because they say that they're not Where is it? Yellowstone Park. So clearly they have the ability to disperse that far. The Wow. Yeah. The same is true for businesses, especially, particularly when it comes to talent you need fast. It's insane how quick it is. Download FanDuel and get more from North America's number one sportsbook. Please play responsibly. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem call 1-866-531-2600 or visit

8:15 That's definitely a yes. Well that's a yes. We caught her first as a pup, so we know where she was born, we know the den. You tell me why wolves do what they do, like from an airplane or track them. But now that we got satellite collars, I mean my gosh we've got wolves going from Washington An average satellite collar, one to two years, and I don't understand why the

11:01 Yeah, you know because obviously they make batteries for their phones and electronics and things along those lines. Yeah. Isn't it a do you want to take a guess? right they just aren't They usually die sooner because they burn up so much energy in years of mating and breeding that they get worn down and then they die. own, went to Idaho in the middle of the Frank Church River of Norwich Turned Wilderness.

13:04 You think about it. That's crazy. trying to pull down an elk with your teeth. chilling on his own for years. Yeah. How many years? Four. Wow. And that would be... Four years without seeing any other wolves. But he did well. Whatever he did, we don't know't we didn't follow him that long we didn't pick up scats it's just the wolf other wolves. It wasn't his own pack obviously, but he survived

15:22 Or a knife where you can cut up the pieces. He's got to bite pieces off with a broken jaw. What a friend said to me, so I want to run this by you to find out if this is true, he Really? I saw one in Utah a couple years back and it was a big one like a present 70 pound one It was incredible. They're beautiful animals and I always think when I'm out in the woods, I got a little

17:50 My little cabin is 55 miles off the grid and it's dry. Well, no, no. I had help with a lot of friends helped me over the years. It took me seven because we get a lot of snow. But three summers ago now I was there alone Anyway, I got on. Yeah, it's like smaller than this cigar box the new one that's got the router with it feet. But it's a really interesting limestone shale in the water. I don't know how it

21:10 I don't know either. They cross when you get to an area where there's water. You're a scientist. Tell me how that's So it just spins in his hands? He's not moving his hands. get a little bit of superstition, a little bit of intuition, a little bit of because I don't know any different. No, I've never had a moment where I was terrified, like something's out here.

24:07 Like if you, I always said that everything in the woods And if you were walking through a mall and a man was walking your way it's just another person like hello hi you know If you're alone in the woods, there is this weird, like if you're some crazy serial killer guys out there, like and you, you know, you're backpacking, you're Okay, I'll just give you the elevator speech part of it.

26:28 They called me by name, which was really freaky. I drove him off. To me. Oh, it's a long story. It's a long story. so I was around, so these loggers knew who I was, and I was, you know, I was cordial enough. And he had seen a wolf, he'd taken a picture of it. The logger network, the CB radio, I don't know, I didn't tell anybody. There's no serial killer mountain lions.

29:36 yourself? Well, off and on. So when I arrived there, I joined a team of young And people were coming and going seasonally. about people. I'm more engaged with people. I enjoy people. So yeah, I get lonely now, You like to engage in conversation. But I would have worked out. it's there's a big difference between that and living there for years this That's definitely a yes.

32:07 Uber Eats can definitely get you that. So, whatever you're looking for this season, know To decompress and get back into the mode of, It doesn't, it's not instant anymore. Wow. Back then I actually did some canning. I don't know I, I don't have time. I don't care about it. I can buy canned peaches or whatever. So it's sort of like all the wild things that are up there are pretty wild and

34:39 friends and I said, I told them, I said, so when I hunt with my pointers, I got a griffon and a wire hair, in the wild too with out hiking. I'm not going to see elk or bears or even fox if you're yammering away. I mean, but even when I go to Yellowstone, I go to Yellowstone at least a couple times a year to watch wolves. I love the wolf watchers take care of bears so they would like feed them frozen watermelons, which is crazy to watch a bear chew through a frozen watermelon like

36:52 where there's vending machines and buildings. So the elk are all over the place out there. This is weird. herds of elk that walk down the middle of the street in Evergreen because they know they don't see people and they had never exposure to livestock. And that's passed on to the next generation next. like you just want to see them in the wild you don't want to see them in an

39:26 they were so special and I make the point when I give talks and stuff I said Yeah. They named him. And so when they named, and I remember after Cecil got killed, another lion got killed, we were first monitoring the wolves and glacier, there was just a handful and we would catch them and we would give them names because it's easier like Oh, yeah, they would know by the name so whatever works.

41:54 Right. Fish and Wildlife Service, to go in and help prevent livestock depredation and Oh my God. and trapping me. Well, obviously someone was telling you what to do though, right? Right. So and does it again. They don't generally survive Well, yeah. I mean, if it was me out there walking around and I had a choice between It's a really interesting complex battle because there's a lot of hunters that do not like

45:33 So, but the reality is it's not natural to not have those predators there, and you're national parks. So people, historic memory, you know we have really short memories. And they just have a shooting line in February and kill all these elk because they aren't we had some of the deepest snows ever recorded happening because they have a vested interest in it being a problem that the wolves are

47:51 Utah, they lost 80% of their mule deer population a year ago. It's a big thing. the deer now. I think if you look to statistics at Montana and Wyoming, which you both have there, but you can't get there. But people block access to that because these people that have these ranches and most of them probably don't even live there and a one black square to the next black square, but you have to step over a tiny piece of

50:32 Why, if you have 50,000 acres out there, whatever the hell you have, why is it so hard to take guy's ranch about a week ago up in north central Montana, and he owned 60 Hunters gave him a really bad taste I'm just going to go on his property. And then this guy's like, god damn it, they're poaching on my land and then he hates hunters. Hunters got nothing to hide by being dishonest or trying to sell somebody.

53:24 Exactly. Nobody wants to admit to that either. Well, it's like the climate. Exactly. Nobody wants to There's people that just don't want any animals ever killed ever. And there's people that want no predators and the easiest hunts possible. And they made this incredibly rosy picture of wolves coming Yes. Wolves have not saved the planet. can actually make people in the middle more involved

56:01 Oh, that's a terrible story. And evil. That's evil. When I saw the photos of the wolf, I'm like, that is an evil act. And I think it goes back to like the Little Red Riding Hood and, you know, the Big Bad So why wolves? I have a theory. people were getting eaten by wolves. They actually I talked to Steve Rinell about it once and he didn't were wounded.

59:21 I'll have to look that up because I haven't actually heard of it. Okay. Volhynia? wolves dashed on the scene and attacked the wounded, reported a 1917 Oklahoma City Times to no avail, the wolves nowhere to be found quite so large and as in Russia, were desperate in their hunger and regardless of danger. that the surviving wolves fled to escape a carnage the like of which they had never encountered.

1:01:40 Well, they lie. And have you read about Russian super packs of wolves? But there was large packs of up to 100 wolves that were going into farms. And I remember reading about this in 2010. Well, I'd love to look up more detail, but I can tell you about, I can't tell you about The largest pack I've ever heard of was in Yellowstone, I think it was 34 because three

1:04:21 very intelligent though. Oh, I know. Extremely intelligent. Oh, yeah. Well this is based on your real-life lived experience, but I wouldn't believe it but things do vary according to very And I'm sorry. circumstances like Siberia, where it's so incredibly harsh I guess you're just a science denier. Like, what are you saying? I'm trying to remember my source, I can't remember but 34 in Yellowstone, that's unusual.

1:07:12 and so all those pups presumably made it to their first year. That's six or seven through mortality or dispersal or whatever happens, hunting. they encountered a wolf pack and they were really frightened because they were Not anymore. And there might be a time where the food source for the wolves is diminished. In this country, with probably a, I don't mean to be offensive, but a better base of

1:09:42 Have you ever seen the Werner Herzog's documentary, Happy People, Life and the Taiga? That's how those people did. None. Yeah? It's a true story, yeah. Yeah, it's just a matter of whether or not you zig when you should have zagged and you're Just as they're scared if they survive a situation. Senator Stor of Vladimir Markov, a poacher time. The animal waited for 12 to 48 hours before attacking. When Markov

1:12:20 Look at the size of that. anywhere I play were wolves overlap with with mount lions which we call lions. are a competitor and one-on-one a hundred twenty pound cat and a hundred But we've documented a case where the wolves treat a cat and when it couldn't stay up with I don't actually you know what we did. Did I eat it? I don't know I have Without the fat.

1:15:31 Maybe that's like a cool thing to tell people that I like because it's nice to know the stuff is still out there wolves on Alzheimer Island are pretty small and they're white. Because they're right? There's a fantastic video. I don't know if you've ever seen it, but there's a Oh my god. I mean, any other time. So if you were in the middle of the forest and you saw that first of all, they wouldn't be that big in the middle of the forest. But if you saw a bear like that in the middle of the forest, it'd be absolutely terrifying. He'd be scared of you. You'd be scared of him.

1:18:52 I kind of had a similar experience, McNeil, not that close, but close enough that I was People hang their game in the woods and they go back the next day and the grizzly bears It's connected to, it's like one of the island chains Yes, elk hunting on the Fog Neck, yeah. They find an elk, they shoot the elk, and then they're very far from camp. foot bear that had claimed that. And he comes running through the camp. And one guy, our

1:21:42 guns drawn, like trying to fend off this bear. He said, you have all these thoughts in your mind of what you would do and how you would It didn't hurt any of them. Imagine a head that big no that close and you hit it with trekking poles, right? It's terrifying. Yeah, leave something. It woofed and gnashed its teeth. And the thing that's common is they

1:24:37 But in a moment of panic, you can't say what you would do. camera and get... You run away because the breathe... Actually it was... You can't breathe. I'm sure. because that's what you're shooting spray work on cats? I've heard it and I have never heard about it being used on a leak when you're at your cabin. You probably wouldn't. Because they are so aware of you. And everything's out there.

1:27:41 First of all, whatever that stuff is, we can even imagine the kind of sense that they have, the kind of ability to smell and can smell it which is really weird because there's no other scent like that Yeah. It is unbelievable. out by the spring and pulled it up onto the trail not snapped and then there'd be a scat two feet away. Wow like fuck you. My imagination and my theory is that maybe this

1:30:54 stick and blows the mousetrap so it can get the food. No kidding. The rat Which is no see we can find Jamie. So it's really weird. Yeah. This is it. Oh, so he smells it of wildness to me. That's something that's... Well, it's rats. It's not really wild, go try the food out first, see if it's poison, because they've been poisoned so many times. So they're like really smart crazy

1:33:50 And that the idea is that there's some sort of a sharing of information that is not local Like, you know, I think we have a very naive belief that the senses that we have recognized, Yeah, maybe smarter is not the right word. Maybe not. But there's something. Rat X-hypothesis, the new behavioral field which will be reinforced by morphic resonance, will

1:36:27 This is pretty wild stuff. Yes. there. No, no, they have specific tasks where they have wolves that will And there's certain, in some packs, certain individuals are the chasers, the younger animals, But I've always wondered when wolves were first walking down from Canada and dispersing was that the dad wouldn't be able to raise those pups because he's got to go out and

1:39:28 And one of those wolves was one that I'd caught in glacier and disappeared six, seven months And that happens in Yellowstone too, where one of the breeding animals will be killed in and she knows it. But geographically, how do they know where to migrate? name is Whedon, now it's something. birds or whatever it was and certainly where do they go? I've had, I remember, yeah, one winter.

1:42:05 flashlight straight up and there was a flock of snow geese. I'd never seen snow light off and I don't know what happened to him never saw him again wow but I. But I think about these birds. A lot of them die migrating. Yeah. They don't have a good ending. 13,670 miles around the world in 46 days in 2005. Oh my god. That's crazy. Laysan albatross flapping their wings. They just use the wind, expending almost none of their own. Wow.

1:44:35 by ranchers and by settlers. of grizzly bears in BC. Right. And so biology by vote, by people that probably don't know anything about what's going on. Like, if you're a per, I've never seen them in the wild. But there are a lot of wolves up there. a good reason, and they're only being brought back because of morons. Well. And I'm kind of in the middle, but obviously I'm passionate about wolves and I lean towards whatever we need to do to ensure

1:47:39 reintroduced by 1995 we had like eight packs of wolves in the state of Montana, then this wolf was, did I tell you about the wolf from Michigan? Yeah, the wolf that was when it isn't forced on them. The other thing of interest about the reintroductions is that people think the wolf-loving hippies Well if we reintroduce them they get a different classification called non-essential experimental

1:51:02 Yeah do you think you still have it? I know Cody sent it to me. I can I can find it Maybe it's here. Valley and ended up going down through the vineyard country, and I think I read about this wolf. There's a wolf that went down through the central California Valley and ended up going down through the vineyard country. I think it was probably Hundreds and hundreds of miles. Historically, back eons of time, wolves had the largest global distribution of any mammal

1:52:57 Giants. But I'm thinking, yeah, anyway, stock market. they don't make it because they get killed. It's showing me the werewolf in the lobby. He filmed it. What was that, Jamie? myself but I know a lot of the wolf watchers I just drive the roads till I we were moose hunting about 10 years ago or so, lot of wolves. Okay. And he was very accustomed to finding calves

1:55:57 that's how you find things. I want to come back as a raven But just when I'm out hunting, I feel a little bit like a predator. Then he started coming towards me and I ran This was in BC. No, excuse me, this was in Alberta. What are we doing? He wasn't scared. It's just a grizzly has a hard life. And they have to they have to put on a lot of weight. picking huckleberries and eating gut piles in the fall, it'd be skinny and they

1:59:39 Well, were you telling a story on Steve Ronell's podcast about a very nice neighborhood of like these nice homes and these wolves that decided to set up shop? kicked yeah right that's a problem because then you're like a wolf growing or quarter of the state where it was boundary water, And that could be, I mean, there were wolves in Texas But of course it's a biased survey because it's by San Francisco.

2:01:54 Well, it's probably one of the reasons So you don't need a tag. I found out that it was on the Adam Green Tree episode. Awesome. So the white chevron, pups, younger wolves have that and as they get older, like the rest of us, they get gray, and that doesn't stand out so much. So it would probably be a yearling, maybe a two-year-old wolf. and they're doing really well. Mostly Northern California? Northern California.

2:04:17 experience before they chose them to release which is really unfortunate. So like 49 and a half to 50 and a half or something, want them removed. And the people in the middle But as I've worked with ranchers and they said, killed because they didn't they raised them for all these generations. They have It was really stupid. So they took speakers and they played sounds of wolves to scare off these other wolves.

2:07:09 Amazing movie. That's what I think. but they're not the same. And that guy doing this thing raw hamburger and laced it with lithium chloride, which is a toxin that makes you violently They don't think like we think. guns and they would see the flattery and it would be quite a ways apart like a pasture and I had out got highway blinking lights that came on at night and the fladry

2:10:13 this is a tough job. Let's just have some fun here. And the wolves don't have a learning curve. So that's just my belief that when they're making And so for example now, we've got wolves in the, they were put into a total of 66 wolves A few have been shot there and all those wolves They took the ones that were the most aggressive so that when they put them on the ground they would survive everything

2:12:40 whether it's a fuck you to the ranchers, whatever it is, on the ground. They spent a lot of time trying to prep people to have some livestock experience. So this time right now, they're already gearing up really pro-wolf it was forced that they were had to take the wolves that they here's the ten you're gonna get. Yeah I could see why they did it that way but

2:15:01 It's time frame. We had conservative congressmen that were in favor of it. whatever. We do have depredating wolves. But they kind of got down to the wire and everybody No kidding. because Remy actually, he reproduced this on his television show. and they would crawl on two Oh, there's a lot of paintings of that. Wild bison? There's bison in Utah too.

2:18:28 Wow. Well, do you imagine especially if you have a compound bow? Sure. You know, I was just shooting today very accurate. so he shot a bison and harvested it. If, yeah. And yeah, and this traditional ranch, Really interesting. But this was one of the last when they were all wiped out from or Well, for sure a buffalo or a bison is not going to be scared of a coyote.

2:20:48 Yeah. Yeah. He is so so interesting. Yes. And the book Coyote America is crazy. I'm gonna And they're not afraid. Then along come Europeans and their dirty diseases, What would be like a healthy population that the food sources could support? it hasn't changed because the number of wolves too went from, you know, zero to 35, 31 to 160, To defend your home, right?

2:24:29 it's like 70 plus percent, 75, is wolves killing other wolves in Yellowstone Park, non-pack I think it's a combination of the two. So the wolves are killing the coyotes. it's a coyote mixed with wolf of unknown origin mixed with dogs and there's lots Sometimes they do well up in the Great Lakes if you look at those wolves It's about three times between each step.

2:27:26 I love coyotes too, but I shouldn't say love, I really respect them. But when you have the wolves coming back Oh yeah, big time. I would guess it's a strict eliminating a competitor situation. So I think maybe originally that was the case because again, the expansion into urban areas am starting to see wolves being the same, that they're much more generous than I would

2:29:31 As long as you don't have a poodle. I did have a big malamute killed by Mount lion about 35 years ago true, but I doubt it, but this is true science. But over years, they have photographs of these foxes and they start changing. They were silver fox a lot of them instead of red and they're black and white. And so that was in a very short time that they changed the the behavior the picture

2:32:03 For years they had bears in That is really fascinating. where that was part of the Timothy Treadbone movie. Ah. In the movie, he had this fox that was his he's up in the grizzly maze in Alaska. Of course, Mr. Treadwell was not really in the bell curve I've got them, I mean, we see them all the time now. Like, I didn't know about the noise until my friend Jim Brewer, who has foxes near his

2:35:06 relation of people with wolves. I talk about that in A Woman Among Wolves, my book, is And eventually getting one tired enough or maybe it was a cripple had a bad leg, and they would surround it and eventually kill it. And then they speculate that the that there was this relationship just because it's a brutal world, not synergy and not altruistic And so if these people lived in a resource-rich environment where there was plenty of meat,

2:37:32 wolves or let them hang around and then you know around they would clean up the environment where they didn't have fight-over resources? didn't do that. And then people say, oh yeah, that thing's crippled over there, let's go kill it and But the relationship of, I mean, there's many dates it said about when people domesticated dogs and it varies a lot. But I think there's some consensus

2:39:22 I'm saying is there wasn't a conflict base. away from the livestock. Because they have a lot of plasticity genetically, morphologically, behaviorally Yeah, there's baboons that take puppies and they use the Like a dog monkey like it's got a face like a dog. It's a weird animal, right? Because unlike any other primate, they Look at who's dragging the dog.

2:41:42 sort of play but they're in. they keep these dogs around the dogs are good watchdogs. Well I'm gonna have to The relationship is not analogous to pet owner relationship. the book he wrote like 20 years ago? Something Prime 8. Yeah I've read a long lions and the wolves. Do you know about lions and wolves and toxoplasmosis? What's going on? extraordinary risks and are more likely to die and lead the pack to death so in

2:44:46 it's really... It's a parasite from cats. You know another book you'd like to read is called And all this happened before COVID. Yeah, they're 99% sure now at this point that it was all gain of function research that through another EcoHealth Alliance. They forced cows to eat cows. Surprise! You dumbass. And then the prions, the fact that So all the aggressive ones died and they turned into this utopian society

2:47:45 this realization that you know they're 46 more times likely more times to be a dead wolf imagine you're that poor. Yeah, it's horrible. Oh, it's hugely prevalent. And they don't know if it's just because And if you're a soccer player, And if I was young and could do my career over, And we had most of our pups all die that year. for the black coat color, they have a different disease resistance to those diseases

2:51:13 were black, and now it's probably 50-50 or less. In Minnesota, the original Midwestern them? Like what is the earliest known like written human history of wolves? Did One of the earliest written references to black wolves occurs in the Babylonian epic, oh, it's in Gilgamesh. I don't have to know what the root of that story is. Disease outbreak select for mate choice and coat color in wolves.

2:53:41 you know, they they kept dogs too and they bred them to You know, they kept dogs, too, and they bred them the Native Americans initially didn't have horses and then some were really No, it's crazy. reason why it's here and the reason why it's so fast. This article says something about The other thing with the pronghorn, I mean, I just came from hunting wolves.

2:55:42 Because we used to have a North American cheetah. and do over. Diane Boyd. Yes, yes. Let's just be 30 seconds. I looked up to catch the glassy reflection of vivid yellow eyes framed by a wolf's black So you asked me about it. signed the contract. I love working with Greystone. They're a fantastic publisher. What kind of polishing? maybe they would just listen to this podcast and just try it I would love