Annie Jacobsen

Date: 2026-07-31 | Duration: 2h 15m

Episode Overview

Joe Rogan and Annie Jacobsen delve into the terrifying realities of biological warfare, with Jacobsen sharing insights from her new book, *Biological War*. The conversation immediately sets a chilling tone, highlighting the existential threats posed by pathogens, drawing parallels between the immediate devastation of nuclear war and the more insidious nature of biological threats. Jacobsen, known for her deep dives into national security topics, reveals that her latest work, unlike her previous historical accounts, is a future-tense scenario based on Pentagon war games and interviews with officials preparing for worst-case biological catastrophes. A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the COVID-19 pandemic, which Jacobsen uses as a metaphorical backdrop to illustrate the potential for chaos and misinformation. They critically examine Dr. Anthony Fauci's role, the alleged lab leak origin of COVID-19, and the controversial nature of "gain-of-function" research, which many experts view as a euphemism for biological weapons engineering. Jacobsen also exposes the alarming proliferation of Biosafety Level 3 and 4 (BSL-3 and BSL-4) labs worldwide since 9/11, underscoring the ease with which biological weapons could be created by individuals, citing a concerning incident involving a private bio lab found in a garage. The conversation further explores government continuity plans, including classified underground bunkers and "devolution plans" designed to preserve infrastructure and a subset of officials in the event of widespread anarchy or plague. Jacobsen also touches upon the evolving landscape of AI-enabled bio-weaponry, revealing her own startling discovery of how easily she could extract classified information from ChatGPT. The episode concludes with a call for transparency and public pressure to address these severe, often unacknowledged threats, emphasizing that an informed populace is crucial for navigating such perilous challenges.

About Annie Jacobsen

Annie Jacobsen is an investigative journalist and bestselling author known for her deep dives into national security and classified government operations. Her latest book, Biological War, marks a departure from her previous historical accounts by presenting a fictional future-tense scenario based on Pentagon war games and interviews with officials preparing for biological catastrophes. Jacobsen has become a prominent voice in exposing the proliferation of high-level biosafety labs worldwide and the existential threats posed by biological weapons in an era of advancing biotechnology.

Key Moments

0:00:27 – Biological warfare compared to nuclear war's grimness
0:01:38 – Soviet Union's extensive anthrax and biological weapons program
0:02:14 – Dangers of genetically modified viruses versus natural pathogens
0:02:36 – Dr. Fauci's testimony and alleged obfuscation during COVID hearings
0:05:02 – Experts' consensus on COVID-19's likely lab leak origin
0:06:20 – Gain-of-function research equated to biological weapons engineering
0:07:05 – Obama's halt of gain-of-function research and its politicization
0:09:15 – Discussion on Plum Island and the potential engineering of Lyme disease
0:11:33 – Ideological commitment hindering rational discussion on COVID-19 origins
0:12:00 – Contrasting COVID-19's fatality rate with pneumonic plague's lethality
0:15:23 – Criticism of mainstream media for ignoring Fauci hearings
0:18:46 – Annie Jacobsen's motivation for writing her biological war book
0:22:56 – Government's primary fear of panic and anarchy in a biological crisis
0:24:08 – Declassified pandemic war games ending at the point of societal chaos
0:24:44 – Classified 'CogCon' and 'devolution plan' for government survival in bunkers
0:26:19 – Anecdote of George W. Bush's transport in a laundry truck during 9/11
0:28:10 – Mount Weather and Raven Rock, underground government bunkers
0:29:51 – Discovery and mystery of the ancient Turkish underground city Derinkuyu
0:38:25 – Wealthy individuals creating bunkers and the archetype of seeking shelter
0:41:07 – Al-Qaeda operative Afea Siddiqui's plan for airborne rabies
0:45:10 – CIA's efforts to counter biological weapons makers globally
0:46:51 – Pentagon's plan to protect infrastructure, assuming mass casualties
0:51:17 – Stigma faced by 'Habakshah,' survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki
0:55:16 – Soldiers' anger over being 'used' in the Iraq War
0:56:50 – Joe Kent's argument for a military draft to end the 'warrior class'
01:48:57 – Annie Jacobsen's White House and Senate visits
01:49:33 – Impact of 'Nuclear War' book on policymakers
01:50:39 – Role of narrative storytelling in making complex issues accessible
01:52:27 – Contrast between nuclear and biological warfare threats
01:53:05 – Biological weapons as the greatest overall threat
01:54:02 – Lack of enforcement in biological weapons treaties
01:54:48 – Nuclear treaty back channels and dialogue between adversaries
01:55:27 – 2019 Vector Lab explosion and importance of scientific communication
01:56:59 – Discussion on 'No First Use' policy for nuclear weapons
01:57:45 – Concept of a combined nuclear and biological WMD treaty
01:58:43 – Annie's perspective on UAP disclosure and government leaks
01:59:58 – CIA's historical use of UFO phenomena as cover for U2 flights
02:03:04 – Trail cameras and the absence of alien sightings
02:04:13 – Jacques Vallee's view: UFOs as an intelligence community problem
02:05:07 – Annie's bias towards disinformation regarding UAP videos
02:06:17 – Shift in legitimacy of UAP discussions, New York Times article
02:07:33 – DARPA's concerns about AI-enabled biological weapons
02:08:49 – Tech CEOs' power over AI development surpassing government
02:10:16 – Classified Strategic National Stockpile and its purpose
02:11:47 – How Annie made ChatGPT reveal classified stockpile location
1:00:03 – Biological Weapons Convention Treaty of 1972 outlawing bio-weapons
1:02:20 – Post-9/11 proliferation of BSL-3 and BSL-4 labs worldwide
1:04:40 – Unlicensed bio labs found in private residences (Vegas, California)
1:05:57 – The alarmingly low barrier to entry for making biological weapons
1:13:20 – Reported success of a specialized ear acupuncture for alpha-gal syndrome
1:17:41 – Military personnel exposed to high PFAS levels from contaminated water
1:18:37 – New nanotechnology to remove PFAS 'forever chemicals' from water
1:21:24 – CDC and WHO's initial incorrect statements on COVID-19 airborne transmission
1:23:39 – Detrimental effects of excessive hand sanitizer and sterile environments
1:28:43 – Questioning the appointment of Dr. Fauci to lead pandemic response over HHS
1:31:47 – Defining 'conspiracy' as a legal term for group deception
1:37:08 – Alleged conspiracy to inflate COVID-19 fear and neglect immune health
1:41:05 – Continued mask-wearing as an ideological symbol
1:43:33 – Admiral Brett Girard's insights on mask efficacy and training
1:46:19 – Dr. Fauci's alleged self-promotion for awards during the pandemic

Transcript Excerpt

[00:00:01] Joe Rogan podcast, checking out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. Biological war. Oh, boy. Every time I talk to you, I'm fucking terrified. That is my part-time job to actually scare Joe Rogan. If I can do that, wow. [00:00:27] Yeah, every time I talk to you, I'm like, oh, no. Last time it was nuclear war. Oh, no. Now it's biological war. Oh, no. which is actually maybe even grimmer the nuclear, because at least in nuclear, you're just, like, gone in the flash. I did a show a while back on the sci-fi network called Joe Rogan Questions Everything, [00:00:48] and one of the episodes we did was about biological war. And so we spoke to this guy who used to work for Russia during the Cold War, and he was talking about how much anthrax they had and how much work they had done on biological weapons. And it was terrifying. He said they had like just giant vats of anthrax, like enough to kill everyone in New York City. They were mill. Was it Ken Alibak? Do you know? He was Russian. Russian. Yeah, there was a couple of those Russian defector scientists who came here and told us everything they were doing. There was like, you know, tons of anthrax and plague. Plague. That's actually the pathogen that I use in the scenario I write is plague because it's so. [00:02:14] But his concern, he said, was not for genetically engineered viruses. His fear was really just from natural virus. He says that is just as scary as anything that's out there. This is the Russian scientist. No, this is a different guy. This is an American scientist. Yeah, I think they like. to say that. You know, Mother Nature is just as powerful, but in truth, that's actually not true, [00:02:36] because think about what you can do with genetic modification, make it more virulent, more transmissible. Yes. And make it defeat existing vaccines and antibiotics. Well, we are right now in the middle of the Fauci hearings. Yes, we are. He is now testifying in fr...

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Who was the guest on Joe Rogan Experience #2534?

Annie Jacobsen was the guest on JRE #2534. This page includes the episode overview, topics discussed, and related resources.

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On Joe Rogan Experience #2534 with Annie Jacobsen, topics include Biological warfare compared to nuclear war's grimness, Soviet Union's extensive anthrax and biological weapons, Dangers of genetically modified viruses versus natural, and Dr. Fauci's testimony and alleged obfuscation during COVID.

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