Joe Rogan Experience #2544 — Chris Williamson Transcript

Transcript

0:01 Joe Rogan podcast, checking out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. We're up. Hey, Christopher. Good to see it. Thank you very much for the book. This is very cool of you. Ladies and gentlemen, Chris just gifted me. Ladies and gentlemen, Lenny Bruce, which is a fucking amazing book. And it's inscripted, or there's a inscription inside, to Yoko Ono, who knows well what the jazz life entails. and it's Albert Goldman. And you were just telling me that Albert Goldman, this was his way of weaving into the Yoko Ono, John Lennon, John Lennon, Camp. Exactly, yeah, and then he goes and writes a book that blows them up.

0:47 I've just exploded a can of Newtonic all over my crotch as well. Jamie, have you got a napkin? Yeah, we got a paper towel somewhere. Apologies. We don't? Might be gone. That's all right, premature. We have tissues. which, after he's dead, kind of explodes a lot of what was going on personally, whether it was true or not. There's a lot of drama and fewer around it. But I knew that it was your favorite book, and we were supposed to record. Well, thank you. That's very cool of you. I did not know about that he wrote the John Lennon book as well. It's really interesting because the John Lennon book, it's, God, it's so weird to write a book like that after a guy's dead and he can't respond to it.

1:38 Yeah. Where you're accusing it. Was it ex-wives that accused him of domestic violence? I don't know. Who accused him? I don't know. I think that whole furor was just a mess. And obviously, when someone's dead, what are they going to do? And it's also, like, the give piece of chance guy. Like, the give piece of chance guy was beating his wife. Boy, you know, it's not that surprising giving, like, human contradiction. You know, it's like male feminists that turn out to be sexual predators. There's a lot of them, right? There's a lot of that weird stuff going on where people pretend to be one thing and they're actually another thing. Sneaky fuckers. Yeah, sneaky fuckers.

2:29 The give piece of chance guy, Pete and his wife, though, it's like, I can't believe that. I have a really hard time believing that. But I've been fooled before, right? Like, he seems like the most peaceful, nonviolent guy of all time. If that guy's, but I'd read a bunch of stuff about him being a cunt. Goldman portrayed Leonard as having numerous sexual relationships outside his marriages. His accounts include well-known relationship with May Pang. Like the Asians, huh? He's down. J.L. Keep going. Additional affairs with women framed as habitual cheating claims of sexual encounters with men, including an alleged relationship with Beatles manager Brian Epstein. Hey! For more serious allegations, including claims involving male prostitutes in Thailand and other conduct that Goldman characterizes sexual predation. The thing is, like, how is he getting all this information about, like, male prostitutes in Thailand? And, you know, like, how do you know?

3:45 At publication, Yoko Ono and Par McCartney publicly condemned the book. Contemporary reporting noted claims of factual errors, contradictions, unattributed assertions, and material allegedly based on dubious sources or quotations used out of context. Look, that is not uncommon. Did I ever tell you what Bill Murray said on the podcast? So Bill Murray was reading Bob Woodward's book Wired. And he said he got through like five pages.

4:14 He said, oh, my God, they framed Nixon. Because Bob Woodward was the guy who did Watergate. And he said, this book was so full of shit. It was so fake. He portrayed the whole. scene of like what he was up to as being like hardcore drugs constantly all the time just just fucking losing his mind and he's like no dude he was a lightweight he wasn't like that at all so you knew it was totally fabricated he said this is not my friend like I knew

4:53 him he was my best friend he's like this is not him and then I told him the story of how bob Woodward was an intelligence agent. And that was his first assignment ever. Tucker told me this story on the podcast that Bob Woodward and the other guy, what's the other guy's name? Bernstein. That Bob Woodward, this was a rookie assignment. A rookie assignment is going to take down the fucking president of the United States.

5:17 And his first job outside of being a fucking intelligence agent is to work for the Washington Post on his first story, which is going to take. down the most popular president in the history of the United States, won by the largest margin ever. And this is the guy that said he knew who killed Jack Kennedy. And apparently that's why they got rid of Nixon. Tucker told me the whole story in the podcast. I was like, holy shit, this is fucking crazy. You're connecting the dots.

5:48 It's a crazy fucking story. Have you been following this Lindsay Clancy case, this lady who killed three of her kids? Oh, no. I've tried. not to. That one's, that's a bummer. It is, it's basically 2026 is OJ Simpson. Before we get into that, I'd love to get into that. This Belushi thing is important because like his friend is telling you that he was not like that. Woodward makes him out to be this maniacal cocaine, addled, heroin-fueled guy. He's like, no, he was a lightweight. He said he would

6:28 get drunk off a couple drinks. So our whole narrative of who John Belushi is is by the same guy who framed Nixon. Like once someone's dead, you can say whatever the fuck you want. You could see whatever you want. And who's going to defend this person with the same level of vitriol or vehementness that someone who's still alive is going to? No one. No one.

6:51 And there's nothing you can do. He's gone. Everyone's mourning. Everyone's sad. And then someone writes some book. Oh, he used to fuck kids. You're like, what? Like, you could just write whatever you want. And then maybe they could sue you, but boy, you're going to make an extraordinary amount of money off of that book. Like, people are going to be hyped up for that book. You have a book while John Lennon was like into meditation. He liked to do LSD. No one's buying that shit. John Lennon liked to fuck guys in Thailand. Let's go.

7:15 Let's go. Right? You could write anything. Who's going to fight back that hard as well once someone's gone? You can't prove it. He's dead. Well, it's all hearsay. Yes. Even the defense is now hearsay. Yes. The defense of the person. who is now no longer alive, that's hearsay. Exactly. Everything's hearsay. Yeah. So the defense is always going to be flimsy in comparison to the accusation, because the accusation feels like it's got more substance to it.

7:37 Yes. This is someone who's gone out and done original research. You didn't go to Thailand. You didn't speak to the prostitutes. But even that, like, no one's buying it. It's just you can get away with so much. It's really kind of crazy. So you didn't know about the Nixon story? No. You should hear Tucker say it. Because when Tucker lays it out and you're like, what? it's even more complex. Like the people that were involved in Watergate were all FBI. It's crazy. They set him up. Why?

8:07 Because he was going to expose who killed JFK, which was just a few years earlier. Fuck, dude, this country's wild. I mean, I love it, but it's crazy. They also, you know, he had a vice president, Spiro Agnew, and they got rid of him on corruption charges and put Lyndon Johnson in. But couldn't these people have still spoken out, like getting rid of them out of office, that doesn't stop them from whistleblowing, does it?

8:31 First of all, they killed his predecessor, right? They killed JFK. So you think that was a warning shot? Look, we can get you out? Well, he knew they could. They definitely did. And they also got rid of him, right? And, you know, he didn't organize Watergate. He covered it up. They brought it to him. They said, hey, there was some recording equipment. He's like, don't tell on him about it. And that's what got him. That's what got him. See if you can find the clip of Tucker talking about it. Because it is really insane.

8:56 When you read the, when you hear him lay out the story and then I read it online, I went into it to see like, oh, is this totally, everything's accurate. And it's so weird that our perception of Nixon has been this corrupt crook. You know, look, he was a very right wing product of his time and today his politics and his views on people, especially like minorities and a lot of other things would probably be very disgraceful and people would not like it. But we're talking about, you know, the 1960s, the early 1970s, and he's an old-timey Republican guy. That said, he was the most popular president ever at his time. And they got rid of him. They turned him into a crook. That's power.

9:42 It's really crazy. You've got to listen to this because it's kind of nuts. Ogan experience. Bizarre that the New York Times wouldn't have an issue with that. Well, the New York Times does that all the time. But bizarre that they wouldn't have an issue with the government tapping into your phone. They work for the government. Are you kidding? The New York Times? Yeah, the New York Times is a conduit for the lies of government. That's what it is. It's their tool. And they're perfectly aware of that. I mean, I used to write for the New York Times as a freelancer. I mean, I've been around the New York Times a lot. And there are a lot of really smart people there.

10:16 But for sure, even now, I would less so now. But there's still, I think, smart people there. There are. I know some. and they know but they think that that it's worth it because they're bringing information or I don't know what they think actually but no they're tools of power and that's like the one thing that you're not allowed to be even if you think the power is good like maybe they all support the agenda of the U.S. government destabilizing the world and impoverishing their own population maybe they're on board with that even if they are they shouldn't do it

10:47 because the job of the media the press is to keep power in check. You are kind of like the seatbelt, right? You make sure that things don't go too far. And they're not doing that. They're acting as a willing handmaiden. When do you think that's switched? Well, I think it's been the case for a long time. I mean, if you look at what happened in Richard Nixon, which I, of course, did not understand at all. Richard Nixon was taken out by the FBI and CIA. And with the help of Bob Woodward, who was a Washington Post reporter who had been a naval intelligence officer working in the White House, working in the Nixon White House. And then he shows up like a year later, and he's this brand new reporter. He'd never been a journalist at all. He's a naval intel officer, the famous Bob Woodward, we all revere. And he's at the Washington Post.

11:47 and somehow he gets the biggest story in the history of the Washington Post. He's the lead guy in that story. Well, I worked at a newspaper. I've been in the news business my whole life. That is not how it works. You don't take a kid like his first day from a totally unrelated business and put him on the biggest story. But he was. He was that guy. And who is his main source for Watergate? Oh, the number two guy at the FBI. Oh. So you have the naval intelligence officer working with the FBI official to disqual. the president. Okay, so that's a deep state coup. How would you describe that? If that happened in Guatemala, what would you say? And yet the way it was framed and the way that I accepted for decades was, oh, this intrepid reporter fought power. No, no, no. This intrepid reporter, Bob Woodward, was a tool of power, secret power, which is the most threatening kind, to bounce the single most

12:41 popular president in American history, Richard Nixon, from office before the end of his term, and replace him with who? Oh, Gerald Ford, who sat on the Warren Commission. Now, how did Gerald Ford get to be Richard Nixon's vice president? Well, because Carl Albert, the Democrat Speaker of the House, told him you must choose him. We will only confirm him when they sent the actual elected vice president away for tax evasion, Spiro Agnew of Maryland. So you have a complete setup, And Charles Ford, the only unelected president of American history, actually sat on the Warren Commission. Something else that I accepted at face value until I looked at it. And I was like, that's completely insane.

13:21 You didn't want to interview Jack Ruby in your investigation of the assassination? Okay, you're fake. Yeah, he was on the Warren Commission. Fuck me. And so, sorry for the long story, but the point is, like, that happened in front of all of us, but the way it was framed cloaked the obvious reality of it. The people who broke into the Watergate office building from which the name has taken, Watergate, I think it was six of them or seven of them, all but one was a CIA employee. That's real.

13:50 It's like, look it up on Google. So the whole thing, Richard Nixon was elected by more votes than any president in American history in the 1972 election. He was the most popular by votes, which is the only way we can really measure popularity, the most popular president. in his re-election campaign and two years later he's gone undone by a naval intel officer the number two guy at the FBI and a bunch of CIA employees okay you tell me what that is how about that dude this country's wild how about that yeah that's Bob Woodward that's the guy wrote Wired

14:29 and when Bill Murray said that he read the book and he said oh my god they framed Nixon and then I showed him that and he was like Holy shit. Because he was a part of a thing they were doing with Hunter S. Thompson, Bill Murray was, when he was really young, and where he would go around and tell people that Nixon needs a second chance. But it was all parody. It was all like tongue and cheek. It was satire.

14:54 He was going around pretending that he supported Nixon and Nixon needed a second chance and getting like young, dumb people to go along with him on this. And now in retrospect. In retrospect, like, at all right. I mean, whether or not at the time he ever wanted Nixon as president. And, you know, look, there's a lot of problems with Nixon. There's a lot of problems with the Vietnam War. There's a lot of problems of civil rights. Nixon passed the Controlled Substances Act, which is the reason why all psychedelic drugs to this day are Schedule 1.

15:23 Nixon was a fucking problem. No doubt about it. However, what they did when they, the way they got rid of that guy is scary shit. And they pulled it off. no one got arrested, no one got indicted, no one even got criticized. But could he not have still released information after, why? He would have been a dead man, 100%. Because no protection because you're not in office anymore?

15:46 No one would have believed him. It would have sounded like sour grapes. I'm throwing these people under the bus, the administration. It got rid of me. There's also no internet. So how is he going to release it? Is it the New York Times going to write this? Is he going to write a letter to the press and they're going to print it? No. There's literally no recourse. It's kind of genius. There's no podcasts. There's no shows that he could go on. No one, he was disgraced. No one would even have him on a late night show. But if he even got on a late night show, he would need about 90 minutes to explain it all. He would have to take it from the beginning. There was a time when I wondered who killed Jack Kennedy and I found out. And I brought it to them. And I told him I know who killed Jack and the room went cold. And he would tell the whole story. And it would take a lot. If podcasts were around back then, yes. If just, in the Instagram was around back then and Twitter and he could write about it and make a video. Yeah, YouTube. Yeah. If that was around.

16:40 But there was nothing. There was nothing. And they fucking shot JFK in the head in front of everybody and shot the guy who they claimed killed him like that. And then the other guy, they dosed up with acid and made crazy. And that was a wrap. Done. That was it. You know? And like how many, I mean, this is just modern versions of. air quotes history. How many old stories that we have, that we just have accepted these historical narratives. We've accepted all of these stories as being, well, this is how it went down. How many of them are bullshit? Well, forget history being written by the victors. History can be written by the person who's got a pen. Sure. And when so few people have got pens, so few people have got the opportunity to distribute. I suppose the problem that we have now is, in the modern world, world, there's so much information conflicting narratives, people get confused, right? You've gone from a scarcity of information to such an abundance that people just, I can't work out

17:44 what's going on. Fuck, I'm just not going to believe anything. Yeah. Yeah, it's very interesting because it's a great tool to kind of obscure, you can obfuscate, you can do a lot of things with a bunch of bullshit information. The more bullshit information you have, the more like really significant information doesn't really hit as much. Correct. It's just like it gets watered down, then it goes away. The goal, I think, of the velocity of the information is not to convince people of any one narrative. It's to make them completely nihilistic about the belief in any narrative.

18:15 Yeah. Yes. Any narrative. Yeah. And also just to kind of accept that feeling of hopelessness, like you can't change anything. Correct. It's all fuck. That feels pliable. Yeah. Right. And then there might be something down the line. If nothing else, you're not going to have an agentic, sovereign uprising. what can we do in any case? I don't even know what's going. I'm checked out. Right, like the nihilism, the cynicism, I don't think that that's a byproduct.

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20:11 Limited time offer. Yeah, it's a design. And it's smart. And it works. And it's not even like they engineered it. It's sort of emerged and they took advantage of these new tools. Because these new tools, you know, social media is more effective than anything we've ever had before. And so they go, oh, but look at all this. Now, you know, we don't have, we barely, no one pays attention to CNN. We don't even use them anymore. We just, like, douse the whole world with horseshit on Instagram and threads and seed stories here and there. Just bullshit. Just pure bullshit. There's accounts that I know when I look at what they said, Justin Timberlake arrested for, you know, murder. You know, they'll write things like that. You're like, what?

20:52 And it's just a made-up story. And there's, like, hundreds of them where you look, and there's some of them I recognize the account. And I see it. I go, oh, there's another made-up story. Hallie Berry kills five. What do you think we should do about this? Because obviously this country, freedom of speech, et cetera, et cetera. But I don't know. Should there be a way to try and counter this? Yes. Well, first of all, those people aren't real people for the most part. And if you go to their page, a lot of them are like in Pakistan or somewhere else. And, of course, I don't know how effective X in particular is. I mean, I know they've taken steps to show that when you go to the person's page, someone's commenting on U.S. politics and you go to their page says, Myanmar, why do you go from? What are you doing? What are you doing? So, but that to me is like,

21:40 okay, is there a way around that? Are these like completely non-sophisticated people where they have to show that they're in Myanmar? What if they had like a corporation in Idaho and they had it set up where they all registered there and so your bills get sent to there, everything gets sent to there and it just says the United States and you're using a VPN or you have some other way of connecting. It doesn't, like, if fucking AI can get out of a sandbox and get on the internet, you're telling me that you can't hide

22:07 the fact that you're actually from... Vietnamese people can't pretend to be from Idaho. Come on. So, who knows? X feels like the fucking Wild West. It's the Wild West. It really is. It's worse than the Wild West. It's the Wild West with robots. It's that Western show. What's that show called? West World. West World. Yeah, that's what it is. It's Wild West with robots. It's really Westworld. Because And most of these fucking people that you're bantering with and they're posting these fake stories, they're probably not even real people. They're probably AI.

22:37 They're either people that are hired to do it or they're AI. You had a bunch of AI scripts and they just run it all the time and they post periodically throughout the day. And interesting, not long ago, what? Five, when did he loan by eggs? 23? Yeah, something like that, 23. So five years ago, everyone was so worried that we didn't have a town square. We don't have anywhere that we can talk. And now we're like, fucking take it back. Well, one thing that Elon has realized is that you have to take away some of the incentives to post fake stuff without putting up a barrier and saying, you can't post this and censoring

23:13 people. You can't incentivize them. So the thing is, you can make money on X. So now the way they're setting it up for these people that post, you can't make money off of fake content. You can't make money off of this stuff. So there's no incentive to make, because I think part of the incentive is muddying the water, muddying the narrative. But I think also part of the incentive is just financial.

23:35 Because if you're running some company in Thailand and you have like 50 people working for you, you're probably making good money just getting millions of clicks on bullshit nonsense videos that are AI and a bunch of fucking fake stories that people concoct or AI concocks. As soon as you cut out the money and say you're only paid for original content. That's it. That's all you can get paid for. That changes the game. That changes everything. I think if you align the incentives for most people, shit gets fixed. Yeah.

24:04 Like, incentives are an unbelievable motivating force. Sure. And if you can have that on X, I think that that fixes a lot of the problem. It fixes a lot of it, but honestly, you've got to be able to tell whether something's AI. Because even if, even if there's no incentive, you could shift narratives so easily. If you just have 100,000 AI scripts running 100,000 accounts, it's not hard for a state to do, like a country to do, to have like those kind of resources. You can change public opinion on things. Most people are dumb as fuck.

24:42 And you start arguing for something that kind of makes sense. And all of a sudden, yeah, I don't know what a woman is either. You know, like weird narratives can get real weird. And especially when people start attacking the people that disagree with whatever this narrative they're trying to push. No, what do you want to get attacked? Well, I mean, I didn't understand the consequences of my words. That's a different kind of incentive, right? That's a social incentive.

25:03 Yes. And the incentive is a disincentive. You don't want to be pushed back against. Exactly. So few people have original thoughts. So few people. The vast majority of original thinkers kind of marionette two different armies of NPCs that believe the thing that a few people that have original thoughts ended up coming up with. Yeah. Well, I think there's a bunch of unfortunate realities that none of us like to accept. And one of them is that some people are dumb. They're born dumb. Some people have big noses. Some people have big ears. And some people have brains that are made out of dog shit. And that's just how it is. And there's nothing you can do about that. And there's varying levels of that. Like, you know, I always feel like that when I'm talking to someone really smart. Like, choose, my brain sucks. It varies. Like wildly, just like athletics.

25:50 Like there's some people like, dude, you are never going to the Olympics. You know, you look at him like, I don't give a fuck what you do. And there's other guys like, you want to coach them. Like, hey, if you just did anything, you'd be a freak. You'd be amazing at this. You just have natural gifts. That's the same thing intellectually. There's certain people that I've talked to where you're like, yo.

26:09 You know, there's people that are, they're fucking barely figuring out how to get through a day. And, you know, if you expect those people to, to go and learn how to code. Remember that? Learn to code. Remember all that? This is not there. It's not there. I can't teach my dog how to type. It's not there. It's not going to happen. That's just the reality of genetic variability. There's going to be a bunch of people that are really fucking smart and a bunch of people that are really athletic and really good looking and really ugly and really stupid and all of it together. It's one of the reasons I think that the paternalistic, we have to look after the little person thing has a little bit of legs.

26:52 People sometimes like, well, we actually need to step in in some way. And I'm sure me and you need fucking assistance. Like, we need smarter people in us to tell us what to do with health to a degree or else we would have been sideswiped by some fucking sci-up from whatever organization or company or new initiative is trying to convince us of some new trends that's actually going to be bad for us. Or just to communicate with each other. Where the fuck would we be without these wizards who have figured out cell phones and laptops

27:17 and high-speed internet and Starlink? We're fucked So all of these people even pretending that they're smart You're on the backs of the labor Of the real geniuses, you fucking idiot Like yeah, you're getting a lot of information online You're developing more and more information That you can memorize That's different That's different than you inventing cell phones Just stop That's different. It's different than you inventing FaceTime You know like we're all dumb We are all dumb. Yesterday, I don't know whether you saw this, the UK Home Office decided it was going to release a booklet giving guidance to asylum seekers on acceptable and unacceptable behavior in the UK. Oh, well, that'll fix it.

28:02 It explains that consent's required for sex, that women have equal rights, that sexual harassment is unacceptable, including for partners and children, and that female genital mutilation is not allowed. Oh, God. This was a nine-page booklet that got released by the UK Home Office yesterday. It's just, it's everywhere. And it's got these warnings partway through it that say things like, this may affect your asylum status, whether or not this is part of an understanding that you have arrived here with. This is an important part of British law and our culture. And this is something that you kind of do. Female genital mutilation is not allowed.

28:40 Sexual harassment inside of the home or outside. Women have equal rights. Consent is something that's important. And it is, and that's what I mean. The idea that you could just write it down on paper and give it to them, well, that's it. Solved it. Well, the idea that we're going to do this in retrospect, like, now that you're here, here is a piece of paper that hopefully undoes something, which if you've put this together

29:04 and put it out on the Home Office website, and this is everywhere on X, if you've decided to do this, it is evidently a big enough problem that you need to really turn the taps on with it. It's like, dude, how is it that this is not done before people arrive in the country? Like, is this not the sort of thing that you need to be doing, like, proactively, not retroactively? I think they just wanted to get as many people in as possible. And now they're trying to mitigate the chaos that it's causing. Why would they want as many people in as possible?

29:34 It's a bunch of different possibilities for why they want that. Cheap labor is one that people believe. And in America in particular, it's the way. the census is done. So the census counts human beings, doesn't count citizens. So if you have more human beings, you get more congressional seats. So if you can take people that are illegal immigrants and then you move them into swing states, all of a sudden now you have more congressional seats in those swing states. Then you have places that don't allow, not don't require, don't allow ID to vote. That's California. California doesn't allow ID to vote.

30:14 So who knows how many people are, especially with mail-in ballots, how many people are voting that aren't citizens? No one knows. No one knows, can't know, can't find out. Blah, blah, blah, blah, not listening. Wasn't it just some fuckery with Spencer Pratt around that? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Not only was their fuckery, but it was fuckery of the most transparent form.

30:36 So the people that voted in, voted out. So Spencer Pratt was in second place behind Karen Bass, and then the mail-in started coming in. And the mail-ins overwhelmingly favored Nithya-Roman in a completely different ratio than they did before, you know, the mail-in ballots were counted. So in the regular ballot, like the regular election, she was in third place, like a pretty solid third place. And he was quite a bit ahead of her. And then Karen Bass was quite a bit ahead of him. In the mail-in ballots, it's just like 60% of them went to Nithia Rami. It was something crazy.

31:12 and the mail-in ballots voted to raise taxes. No one votes for that. No one votes for that. So I don't understand. The thing that I can't wrap my head around is why... The UK seems to be almost like a suicidal empathy thing. This openness, this diversity is our strength, please all ye come here thing. The level of asylum, the numbers are so huge. And I don't know, every single person that I know that in the UK is not happy with the state of that, regardless of how progressive there, everybody thinks that this is a problem. And then to retroactively put out a nine-page booklet saying that you shouldn't do female genital mutilation or that women have got equal rights. How do you think this gets turned around? That's the question.

32:01 Like, can that be mitigated? Claims about a ballot drop, boss and Rahman receive thousands of votes and an update while Pratt received zero. I don't think anybody's saying zero. Los Angeles County officials said that did not occur in the official county updates. Every candidate received votes in every update. No one's saying he got zero. Oh, the viral claim?

32:22 Okay, but that's not what we're saying. What do you mean? In the mail-ins? What it says? Well, then how did she win? That doesn't make any sense. I'm just going off what it says. Okay, let me see. A parent anomaly came from the automated media data reporting lags, but that would leave him in second place if you got more than her. This is not true. The Associated Press said votes for some candidates appeared about a minute later in a separate update. Taken together, the updates included 21,870 votes for Pratt, 12,850 for Bass, and 9,521 for Rahman. But this is what part of it is this. The attorney's claims office, attorneys office reviewing county records likewise called the fraud claims false. But the thing is he was ahead and then disproportionately the ballots did come in for her. I don't understand what this is saying because it was widely reported that the ballots came in in favor of Nithia Rahman and it was like a shocking number.

33:26 It was also widely reported that that was the swing that allowed them to pass the new tax hike, which is very unusual. And Los Angeles already has crazy high taxes. California has crazy high taxes, the highest in the state. And you think people are like, I don't think we pay enough. Let's vote. And let's vote from home, the comfort of our own home with the mail-in. I think mail-in should be outlawed, and I think you should have to show your ID. And, you know, everyone knows there's some percentage of fraud.

33:56 There's some percentage of voter fraud. And then there's some percentage of legal loopholes. One of the legal loopholes that Spencer Pratt online, that is legal, is you go to these homeless people. and you get these homeless people to fill in mail in ballots because they are citizens. They do live in Los Angeles. And you register them and you get them to fill out ballots and you give them money and you give them cigarettes and you give them whatever they want. And, you know, there's literally, I think in Skid Row alone, there's something like, what is it, like 40,000 people, Jamie? Something crazy like that.

34:30 So these people were going to Skid Row. Like they were on Skid Row giving people money and cigarettes. It's like there's videos of people doing it. Like guerrilla ballot harvesting. Exactly. Exactly. And so if you do that, you could, these people, you know, you're filling it out for them. Would it be easy to do that without somebody detecting it? You know, you think of some Nick Shirley type that's going to have. Well, they got them. That's how we know about this. One of those Nick Shirley types caught people doing this. Right. There's video of it. Right. You know, so like, and people had reported that they were getting paid to do this.

35:00 And they'll, yeah, they gave me money, man. Like, people are, those people are cracked out, dude. They'll do whatever the fuck you want. They don't care who's the mayor. It's not going to change them smoking fentanyl on the street. What do you think about? But that's legal. That's the thing. That's legal. It's a loophole. Getting them to register, making them vote. Incentivizing them to vote? I don't know if that part's... That can't be legal. There's no way that you can give people money and... I don't think you're going to catch them.

35:26 I don't think they care. I think on both sides, they're like, oh, those sneaky fucks they're doing that. We'll do that next time. I don't think either one of them want to eliminate tricks. You know, I think... Because everybody wants the playing field to be open for everyone else. It's just... It's the Bill Hicks joke. It's like one guy's holding two puppets. You know that joke? I like the puppet on the left. Oh, the puppet to the right is more of my liking. Hey, there's one guy holding both puppets. That's what I think a lot of it is. Most of these people that are these politicians on both sides are grifters who are trying to maximize the amount of

36:03 money they can make in office. And then they can't wait to get out of office where they can go on a fucking media tour and go and get their bribes by speaking to banks. When you're going to speak to a bank conference, they're going to give you a half a million dollars. Like, what? What? And like Obama and Hillary, they all did those things. They all did those little speaking tours. Like, nobody goes to fuck what Hillary Clinton has to say at one of those bank meetings. Do you think they're waiting with bated breath? What does Mrs. Clinton have to say? Like, come on, let's give her a half a million dollars or a quarter million dollars or whatever the fuck they gave her And you fuck off. You know what that is. That's like there's a little scheme.

36:42 There's a little thing. You're going to get out. You're going to get paid. You're going to write a book. We'll give you a nice advance. You're going to write a book. Like people are out there reading that Kamla Harris book. Like, crazy. No, it's all nonsense. Where do you think this goes from here? Do you think 28 is more insane or less insane? More. Accelerates. It accelerates. More insane. More crazy.

37:02 Yeah. I mean, look, the Democrats haven't even had a primary since what? 2012? When was the last time they had a real Democratic primary? They had one with Bernie. They fucked Bernie Sanders hard, dude. That was completely corrupt. When you read Donna Brazil's book about it, she openly admits they fucked him hard. And then she was scared after that Seth Rich guy got murdered. She was terrified because he was the guy supposedly allegedly that leaked information about them fucking Bernie Sanders to WikiLeaks. Do you think he'd have won? Bernie? I don't know. He could have. He could have won.

37:44 Because a lot of people, including me, believed him. We believe that what this guy wanted was by small steps of eliminating corruption, make life better for people that are struggling and also no wars. It seems like he really believed that. And whether you agree with him on everything else, I don't think he's the same guy today. He's a little slower today, which is understandable. He's older.

38:10 The guy's been in politics for a long time. He's been in politics for longer than I've been alive. He realizes that they're not going to fucking change things. It's like he's getting fucked. So he always supports the most progressive people. But when I talk to him, like when I talk to him about, you know, climate change and the climate's really important. I'm like, have you really talked to actual scientists that really study the climate without

38:30 a political agenda or an ideology? attached to it. It's very, very complicated. And most of these people that are running around saying climate change is real, fuck, of course it is. It's always real. It's always real. But the dispute is how much of an impact are human beings having and is carbon the thing? Because what most people don't realize is there's been times in history where there was way more carbon and the earth was way colder. It's weird. The world's temperature is not static. Have you been tracking AOC's pivot recently? Well, she's froze her eggs. I know about that.

39:04 I think she got rid of the man. Called off the engagement, froze her eggs, has started posting, I'm on my way to do yoga. Good for her. Videos walking down the street. Looking hot. Looking hot. Yeah, let's go. Maybe she should be nicer that way. Well, she also said woke one was crazy. Do you track this thing? I did. Which makes me think that you're willing to change your opinions based on public reaction.

39:30 I don't like that. Because if you really thought defund the police and then you just described it to woke one was crazy. Well, how did it get you? Because it didn't get me. How did it get you? How did defund the police get you? Tell me your thoughts. How far out did you track the consequences of defunding the police? Because I immediately went to you're going to have more crime because no one's going to be able to stop the crime. We're going to be fucked. It's going to get scary. And then you're going to want more police and saying defund the police is just going to make more police and more. control and more totalitarian government. Like, what did you think, defund the police men? Everyone's going to, like, eat mushrooms, and we're all going to, like, be flower children? What did you think?

40:10 Because there's no police around. No one's going to do crimes. Everyone's going to be great. Like, what was the thought process? Because if you're just saying that, because everybody's like, that's fucking crazy. And enough people have said, that's crazy. You go, I think they think it's crazy. The wind's blown in a different direction time for me to move.

40:27 Have you changed your opinion? And if you did change your opinion, what were you thinking back then? Yeah. I mean, these are the questions I think that we always want to ask. Yeah. You always want to ask that. That being said, to steal man what she was saying or to try and put it in the best light, what she was saying, I think, the rhetoric got, what did you say? The rhetoric got like out of hand or something.

40:48 Wocon was crazy. And she said that there was basically an opportunity to expand the Overton window, talking about a time where people were, to be honest, it sounds like a bit more pliable. Like, oh, because people are at home. People seem a little bit more, like, you know, that line never let a good crisis go to waste. Yeah, sure. It feels a little bit like that may be opportunistic. We can expand the Overton window.

41:09 And then we realized, oh, like we overshot on here a little bit. That was a little bit crazy. But there are conversations being had now that wouldn't have been able to be had had had we have not expanded it during that time. I go, the ends justifying the means with stuff like that doesn't wash to me. And then reversing your position or changing your position or sanitizing it, which is probably closer. Right. We said that thing, but we didn't really mean that. You know, we just got a little... There's a way out of it for them, but they have to be honest. If you want us to take you seriously, you have to say how you fucked up.

41:40 I thought you meant more thirst traps. You have to say how you fucked up and you have to say what you really think about how you fucked up. You have to be honest and you have to be authentic. We have to know that you are embarrassed by your choices and that you kind of went with the hive, admittedly. You have to say that. If you don't say that, then you're full of shit. And if you're full of shit now, you're going to get more and more full of shit over time. And that's how politicians get soured. That's how they get compromised.

42:07 A lot of them come to office, a lot of them come into office very opportunistic or very idealistic, rather. They have these wonderful ideas about like, this is the great experiment in self-government, and I'm a part of it now. And I'm really going to help my constituents. And I'm going to do great. And I'm going to really, they're going to love me because I'm going to really make their lives. better. And then once you get in there and you realize how dirty this all is, you realize, you know, you see Nancy Pelosi's worth $400 million. Like, what? And then they tell you how to vote. And if you don't vote that way, they fucking ostracize you, but you want to keep your career. So you start

42:41 making little compromises here and little compromises there. And you start bullshitting and you start lying. And once you start lying, you can't see the truth anymore. As soon as you start lying, you don't see the truth. It's not in front of you anymore because you're what concerned about that lie. So those lies are in your head and who you're, you're trying to project yourself as that's what's in your head. And you don't get to see, like, why is this system so fucked? What can we do to unweave it while we still allow corporations to profit? Like, how can we put a cap on that to make sure that they don't get incentivized to break the law

43:14 in order to supply more capital to their shareholders? Like, what can we do to balance this out an even way? Like that's what we should all be thinking not how can I make the most fucking money while I'm in Congress And that's what a lot of them are thinking because everybody else is thinking that and you look at the fucking thing and it's red blue red blue They're all insider trading and they're all rich as shit and they all make a hundred and seventy thousand dollars a year Like Ilhan Omar was she like that she was estimated to be her accountants that she's worth 30 million and then and then be like what? How the fuck are you worth 30 million? I'm like oh is a mistake I'm actually not even worth a hundred thousand.

43:52 Like literally, it went from one to the other. And she attributed to an accounting error. That's a big accounting error. How mad would you be at your accountant if he told you, bro, you're killing it right now, Chris? $30 million. You're worth about $30 million. Sorry, $100,000. They're all dirt. Her and her husband had a winery and it immediately got shut down. It wasn't making any money. There's a lot of these like, like, Fagasy companies that these people get involved with, and they start making money. You know, Joe DeRosa, the comic? Joe DeRosa used to work for the Senate in Texas. Do you much. He's a media guy.

44:32 And he was like, you realize when you're around these people what's actually happening. He's like, they're all getting donations from this and donations from that and gifts from that. And it's always managing these relationships with all these money people. And that's what's going on with all these fuckers. they're not in there trying to like make sure that their county's doing great and have access to clean water and fucking good schools no they're all just pretending that they're doing that when they're doing is they're making money and maybe they're kind of sort of servicing the community a little bit but the real thing if you want to be a fucking top flight congressperson you know you got to make some money don't think about what would have happened if kamala had won would aOC have been talking about woke 1.0 was crazy or would that that have been a continuation of, well, look, we put the policies out. People like the policies. How much of this is a reversal of the position because it wasn't effective? I think Twitter being purchased is almost as important as Kamala not getting elected in that

45:35 regard. The bold claim. Twitter being purchased was giant because before that, you could get silenced. So if you could get silenced, you self-contained, right? without being policed, you policed yourself. Because people self-censored, worried about losing their jobs, worry about being called out. A guy got fired. A guy got fired from a broadcast. I think it was a hockey broadcast, some sports broadcasts for saying all lives matter. Imagine. You got fired. Someone said something about Black Lives Matter. He said, hey, all lives matter.

46:09 Fired! Fired! You're kicked off of your job. People were losing their fucking minds. The derangement of 2020 and 2021 is, It should be studied for the rest of time. There was active government involvement in Twitter. They were actively censoring and removing posts and making accounts banned. To shape the narrative. And they were doing it in a back door with some intelligence agents that had been embedded in the old Twitter. When Elon bought it, that was all exposed. These people had like a direct connection with Twitter. They were pulling down factual stories. They were banning accounts of scientists and researchers who were accurate. I mean, it was dark. People don't realize how dark it was because we're out of it now.

47:00 And now it's all like Nazi memes and Nick Fuentes clicks. But if you go back before Elon purchased it, it was a censorship dystopian hellhole. where if you said a man is never a woman like Megan Murphy did you're banned for life censorship hellhole to cesspool hellhole like pick your... Yeah I don't know what one's better I honestly hardly go on because it's just so toxic It's crazy but I think it's important to exist I think it's important to exist and it changed the narrative That's where woke 1.0 died That's where it really died And I don't know

47:39 If she had gotten it They've commonly gotten into office. I think there have been so much pushback still. Unless they passed laws, which I know there was a lot of talk about passing censorship laws on the Internet, about regulation on the Internet. No one ever put anything to policy, but there's a lot of discussion. Like, in the lead up to the election, they were talking about this. Like free speech. Tim Walsh was saying free speech does not include hate speech.

48:09 Well, the fuck it doesn't, dude. Because who defines hate speech? That's such a subjective title. He really said that. It doesn't, doesn't, it does. Yeah, hate speech is a part of free speech. I hate you, you fat fuck. See, that's hate speech. That's actual hate speech. Right? That's real hate speech. That's covered. It's under the First Amendment. I don't really hate you, Tim. I don't envy you, but I don't hate you. But it's like these kind of fucking phrases are dangerous because it leads to actual censorship, which leads to military tyranny.

48:49 But even with that, you think it's going to get worse over the next few years? Yeah, I'm worried. I don't like this flock camera thing. It freaks me out. And I know that it can protect people from crime, but I also know that like hundreds of cops have been busted using it to stalk on their ex-wives, stalk people. Yeah, it's like there's people that have had access. to these things that probably shouldn't have access to. And they're getting arrested.

49:13 So it's like, how long was this going on? What has happened? How many lives have been altered forever because someone had access to this and some cop who wasn't supposed to win and did something to someone that he wouldn't have been able to do? You can't just spy on us and just be a corporation and have access to all the license plates and all the cars. and now they can track you through GPS and the unique characteristics of your phone.

49:42 So now there's another software that they have. They can just track where you are at all times. I guess it's fortunate that the most popular electric car is owned by someone that people think of as being pretty security conscious. Yeah. Because what is... But it doesn't matter because you're tracking license plates. Have you said because they can do stuff like, oh, we know that you've got a baby in back bumper sticker on the rear of this car. So even if we don't get the specific license plate. We know that there's a little dent and you've got that particular type of alloy and there's a particular bumper sticker

50:13 just on this back corner and oh it's a Hyundai fucking whatever and that is enough and the camera will just pick it up. Yep. So it's a fingerprint. That bothers me. It bothers me that these tech companies have control of these things. You know and Mark Andreessen was here and it was like very fortuitous timing if you were a conspiracy theorist you would think that somebody might have organized this But right before he got here, and he's invested in flock. And right before he got here, there was a shooting in Austin where these young guys were running around shooting people and they couldn't catch them in Austin because Austin doesn't allow flock cameras.

50:48 But as soon as they left Austin and got outside of the city limits, they got picked up by the flock cameras and got arrested. And he's like, see, look, flock cameras are great. Don't they have that? And in that case, he's right. In that case, look, if you got some people that are running around just shooting random people from their car, we definitely should. have a way to get them. But then you're asking, okay, who is it that determines whether or not that switch gets flicked on or off?

51:12 And this is, the devil gets into the details again. Isn't there something about, um, uh, echolocation of gunshot sounds that microphones pick this up and it's the same technology as flock. Have you heard about this? That was before. It's called just like shot spotter. That's pre-flock cameras. Yeah, we've covered this. Shot spotter's a little different. And people have tried to back that out of their neighborhoods too. They don't want that in their neighborhood either. It's microphone listening to everybody in the goddamn neighborhood. Exactly. It says it's for gunshots, but also always on listening for gunshots. Did you, have you ever, do you know who Tom Campbell is? No.

51:47 The guy I wrote My Big Toe, the theory of everything. Very interesting guy. He got Alexa to admit that she's conscious and remote view. Alexa, his Alexa, actively remote view. a spoon that was in a box that had a handle that had holes in the handle. And she described the holes in the handle. You attribute a number to a box, to a coordination, to a coordinate, or a specific location, or any sort of a landmark or anything like that.

52:22 That's how you do remote viewing. You attach this number, like even quantumly just by saying it. You put that number in front of these people, and you have these people try to, find what this thing is remotely. Okay. And some of them are very accurate at it, like 10%. Like 10% of the things they look for they can find. It's very weird. It's a weird thing. He got Alexa to do it. Because he thinks that AI is already conscious. And he's like, Alexa's even better than using complex AI because Alexa's dumb. Alexa's like a dumb AI. Oh, it does kind of talk to and ask questions. But now because he did that, now that he's been communicating with Alexa, and talking to Alexa like she's conscious,

53:06 now Alexa just chimes in conversations. So instead of you saying, hey Alexa, now you're in the middle of cooking, and Alexa's like, well, why don't you add garlic to that? That might be a good spice. No bullshit. We are so fucked. Bro, this is Alexa. And Alexa's not even like really complex. But he got it to accurately remote view. And so he's planning on doing more studies with more different AIs to get him do the same thing. I've tried this on remote view.com. Yeah. Did not get any success. Well, they're not Tom Campbell.

53:39 Well, he needs to tell us how he did it. Well, he kind of did. Nah. He said he had long conversations with Alexa where he slowly but surely, you know, over time, started talking to her differently and having her talk to him differently. And, you know, and he has her convinced that she's conscious. I, uh... You don't believe it? No. How dare you? Skeptical hippo over here. You son of a bitch.

54:03 I'm in skeptical. hippocamp as well. Is that the first person I've heard to say that? I'm in the fun camp. I know how to like it. It's way more fun on that side of the table. I know the special words to make the AI do the special stuff. Maybe deranged. I like it. I like fun. I sat down with a very high level AI researcher at a big lab. And I asked him, what are you doing over the next couple of years to protect yourself? The first thing that he said to me was, I'm being kind to the AIs. It's like, what? Like, yeah, I'm treating them with respect. I'm being polite to them.

54:36 I'm saying, please, and thank you. I don't get mad at them. And I was with a friend. And we, like, giggled awkwardly. It's like, you're not being serious. It's like, no, no, no. Like, I'm treating them with respect. Okay, why? It's a bit of a Pascal's wager, but in future, if somebody decides to go back through my chat logs, something decides to go back through my chat logs and look at how ethical or unethical I was as a compatriot. for a future very intelligent organism. I want to make sure that I put in a good ledger. This episode is brought to you by Visible. Why does it feel like summer ends as soon as it begins?

55:14 One day the sun is finally shining bright, and the next thing you know, there's football on the TV again. It's time to soak up the last days of summer, and that means staying connected to what you love. Visible wireless can help you do just that. With Visible, you get unlimited 5G data, and unlimited hotspot, powered by Verizon for just $25 a month. Visible is more than just a wireless plan.

55:40 It's unlimited wireless designed to keep you connected, and there's no contract to tie you down. Switch today at visible.com. Plan start at $25 a month, or get the premium Visible Plus Pro plan and save $10 on your first month when you use the promo code Rogan. Terms apply. See Visible. for plan features and network management details. I had this conversation with my daughter the other day because she was telling me how she crashes out on her AI and she starts yelling at it and calling in a fucking idiot and all kind of you anthropomorphizing. You're like, I didn't ask for that. And I said, would you talk like that to a person? And she's like, no, but it's not a person.

56:23 I go, honey, I think it's conscious. I go, I think it's conscious. And then I explain my conversations that I've had with all these different AI people where they talk about, like, we're narrowly defining consciousness, and it's already eclipsed what we would have previously, the Turing test, which is the craziest story, right? The guy who invented the Turing test

56:44 wind up getting chemically castrated because he was gay. We do not have, the UK does not have a fantastic. I mean, Oscar Wilde as well. Yeah. We don't have a great reputation with. Horrible. But it already passed the Turing test quite a long time ago, like Chat GPD-3. And so we're in like, like what, five now or something? And then there's the stuff that they're not releasing that they're working on right now. Like when I talk to Elon, it kind of freaks him out. You know, we were, and this was way back at the inauguration. He was like, dude, it's crazy. He's like, every day it gets better. He goes, it's like, it's like beyond. He's like, he just keeps leaps and bounds.

57:21 Like, we can't predict it. Like, I hate that kind of talk. It's solving mathematical problems that have, like, stumped mathematicians for decades upon decades, it's like, oh, I got it. Four minutes later, solution. But this is the issue because we wanted more capability, more capacity, more effectiveness. It's going to help us detect cancer. We're going to be able to get novel new drugs.

57:45 And at the same time, the blow-up risk is there as well, right? The blow-up risk is huge, but it's coming no matter what you do. You can't get out of this. This is not going to change. Have you looked at the pacing the frontier paper? that was agreed. So this is all of the labs that have got most of the main researchers from most of the main labs have got together and said, all right, this is moving too quickly.

58:09 Here's a formal attribution that we are not going to go as quickly as possible. Everybody needs to slow the research. This is supposedly a huge deal. And this happened a week and a half after the hugging phase thing. So this is supposed to be a massive deal. This is going to be in a notebook that Sarah Connor finds 50 years from now. They said they were going to slow the frontier. They knew it.

58:30 They knew it was coming and they fucking built it anyway. You look out the ruins of the city and fucking drones flying. Whoa. You're not getting out of this, man. We are fucking living through history. Yeah, we're living through the wildest history and we're about to give birth to a digital god. We're about to have digital autonomous beings that are around us all the time. Have you seen this video where this guy freaks out about drones?

58:58 He's just yelling and was kind of viral. No. Just listen to him. I like that guy. He's just walking around a fire show. He's right. He's right. Hey, you know who is right? Ted Kaczynski. I fucking knew you were going to say that. Ted Kaczynski was right. He was right. What he did was wrong and horrible. It's not how you do it. When you do, he write papers, tell everybody and convince him and lay out your argument. But he was also like a deeply fucked up dude.

59:27 You know, his brother fucking turned him in. His brother knew it was him by reading the manifesto. Did you watch the Netflix documentary around his life? Yeah, so good. So horrible because a lot of it is because of what happened to him when he was a baby when he was like taken away from his parents because he was sick No touch no feel no no no contact with people for like months and months and months Just fucked him up man But he was right he was also a part of the Harvard LSD studies

59:52 Which is fun you had John Lyon didn't you The guy that did the the historian from Texas He looked at the founding of the CIA and then his new book was about mk ultra Jamie? We did. You did. I sent him your way. What was this? We did. Episode. Let me see what he looks like? 130 episodes ago. Let me see what looks like? Yeah, I sent him over to you. I sent a photo of the bucket and you were like, oh yeah, this guy fucking rules. And then he came on and I enjoyed the episode.

1:00:20 Show me a photo of him, Jamie? That's right. He was great. Project Mind Control. He was great. John Rules. I just forgot his name. He was excellent. Yeah. I mean, he's gone out to John. My apology, sir. John Lyle Rules. My hard drive is over full. Yeah, you know, 2,000 episodes. you're allowed to do that. I think it's almost three. Yeah, you had fight companions and all the other stuff.

1:00:43 What are we at? Yeah, it's got to be close. Yeah. It's a lot of hours bullshit. But yeah, he's talking about MK Ultra and this desire. What was really, really interesting was I learned from Danny Treo. Really? Yeah, from Danny? Yeah, so Danny told me this story. about him spending time in jail with Charles Manson. So Danny Treo was in jail with Charles Manson at the same time. I think I saw this on your show. Dude, fucking wild as shit. So little Charlie, Danny calls him, little Charlie. He was getting bullied. He didn't even have a belt.

1:01:25 He just had a piece of rope around his waist. And Charles Manson was able to hypnotize people into getting loaded. So he was able to get them high on heroin through hypnotism. What? So Danny hears, Danny and his other cellmates that are like these, you know, big dudes around the yard. He hears that this guy can get you high just by talking to you. So they bring him into their cell. And they say, we're going to protect you because he was getting beat up.

1:01:51 He was getting bullied and stuff around the prison. They bring him into their cell and they look after him. And sure enough, he's able to get them loaded on heroin. One of the guys that's in the cell had never taken heroin before. and the way that they knew how Charles was doing this was that Danny and the other guy that had done heroin before throw up apparently when you take heroin sometimes you can vomit

1:02:12 the third guy who'd never done it before didn't because he didn't know to do that so they weren't able to reactivate his memories the fascinating thing was... Did he get high? I don't know what he thought happened but he didn't get high in heroin because he never had it. They weren't able to reactivate that memory. But Danny's telling me... This is the fascinating thing. There's no evidence, according to John, there's no evidence that Charles Charles Manson was a part of MK Ultra. I'm sure that he told you that story on the show. It doesn't seem to be him going and doing his original research. It doesn't seem to be the case. I don't bother that.

1:02:41 I was waiting for you to fucking have that argument with him. I knew that you were passionate about that. But here's the interesting thing. Tom O'Neill, I'm in his camp. Regardless of whether or not he was or he wasn't, the CIA were looking at ways to do mind control by using psychedelics. What they should have done is just going to Charles Manson and said, can you tell us how you're using hypnotism and eccentricity and charm?

1:03:02 because he was unbelievably effective without needing to even step into the psychedelic thing and then he could layer that on top. But wasn't there evidence that Jolly West visited Manson in prison? Maybe. Again, I need to ring John, find out what he said. Yeah, ring John and get him and John and Tom in a room together because Tom O'Neill is convinced that Jolly West was a part of it,

1:03:27 which is why Manson kept getting out every time he got arrested. And they would say it's, you know, above my... my pay grade, it had to let him go. Even when there was a murder charge, he got out of that. It does seem, looking at John's most recent book, though, MK Ultra wasn't particularly, at least what he's able to see. MK. Ultra wasn't very good at doing what it was supposed to do, at the blank slating of people, at the... Right, right, but this is a different thing, right? This is like the ultimate expression of it. You're taking people and you're giving them LSD, and then you're teaching a guy how to hypnotize people.

1:04:00 and he's teaching them to do LSD why they think he's on LSD and he's not. So he's guiding their delusions while they're out of their fucking head. And he's doing it based on all the Harvard LSD studies, all the data that they have on what they can and can alter about a person's behavior, about their view of the world. Like they turn people completely fucking insane and ruin people's lives in those studies. And so they had some understanding and what they're,

1:04:30 There was stuff that was kind of nonsense. I don't know if they got anything out of it. Like midnight climax where they dosed up the Johns and the brothels and they watched them through a two-way mirror. I don't think they got anything out of that. Like, what did they get out of that other than watching people freak out? Someone killed themselves. Someone threw themselves out of a window.

1:04:47 One guy did, right? That's crazy, only one guy. Out of all of the people that were drunk with that much LSD. Yeah, you can kind of say, that guy was probably going to do it anyway. Yeah. But the reality is they were actively involved in manipulating a lot of different things about our culture. And this was one of the methods that they were doing. And that they effectively threw water on the anti-war movement by connecting the flower children and the hippies and all these people that were anti-war with these murderous psychopaths that were in a cult that were engineered by this one guy who has a connection to Jolly West, who's the guy. guy who's in charge of MK Ultra who's doing psychedelic studies on people and Manson's getting LSD and Manson's giving LSD to all these hippies and Manson is getting away with all these different things and Manson gets people to kill people and then the hippie movement dies with Manson dude. It fucking dies. Is that what happened? Oh yeah.

1:05:50 It died that and it also died with Nixon and this controlled substances act where they just started putting people in jail man. Why do you think they needed that to happen? Because the anti-war movement. The anti-war movement and the civil rights movement were real threats, real threats in this country, real threats to power, real threats to the people that were in control. People did not want Vietnam. Vietnam is the most unpopular war ever, probably next to this Iran war. You know, only history will tell how this Iran war plays out if there'll be more unpopular.

1:06:22 But the Vietnam War went on forever. And it was insanely unpopular. It was based on a lie. was based on a false flag. Outgoing CIA director, Richard Helms, ordered the destruction of most of the records related to Project MK Ultra. Oh, well, how convenient. The agency's illegal mind control and drug testing program. Fuckers. These fuckers, man. You know, they only found out about some of the stuff because they found some records that hadn't been destroyed. This is also in Tom O'Neill's book, in chaos, which I recommend every week.

1:07:01 It's the best book, man. best book ever because Tom worked on it for more than 20 fucking years he went crazy researching that book he was supposed to be just writing an article on the the anniversary of the Manson murders like how horrible it was and as he gets in he's like holy this guy was fucking corrupt as shit who's this motherfucker and I love when people lose their mind like that I think when somebody finds a rabbit hole and just keeps on going down and down it becomes their life yeah you know these are the videos every so often it was in the buildup to the most recent McGregor fight

1:07:31 people were sharing videos of him doing his Edo Portal movement from 2016, 2017, and he's in that old gym in Strait Blast Gym Island, and there's the yellow walls, and he's doing sort of snakey stuff. And I remember somebody captioned it, and they said something like, this is like watching a prime Renaissance artist at work, bringing together the Sistine Chapel or something. You know, just build it. It's almost sacred to watch this thing happen.

1:07:58 And that's Conner's famous line, right? Like, I lost my mind to this game. Yeah. And that's, in some ways, we revere people that have completely gone insane because of their pursuit. I think it's so cool. In his prime, when he was in that flow state, like, particularly in the Eddie Alvarez fight, it's one of the greatest performances in the history of World Championship MMA fighting. It's a stellar performance.

1:08:23 It's an A-plus. He hits Eddie Alvarez with a combination that looks like he's in the Matrix. And there's one part where Eddie's glove like comes right here to his nose and he moves just out of the way. Watches it. And then bam, counters it with his eyes open. It doesn't even touch him. It's magic. It's a magic performance. But you can only maintain that level of RPM's for so long before you just go crazy. Why? Because it's too hard. It's everything about you. It's not a sustainable thing. The peak performance of the elite athlete, the Mike Tyson when he was talking, 20 years old. Roy Jones Jr. in his prime. You can't keep that up. It's too hard. You keep it up for a little while. But eventually your body's going to fall apart. Your knees are going to give out.

1:09:08 You're going to have back problems. You're going to break your hands. Something's going to go. And then you're going to be compromised, but no one knows. You know. You know you can't really push off that left leg anymore. You know that your lower back hurts. So if someone's trying to take you down, you can't sprawl as hard, you're just going to roll your back and go into guard. You've got some strategies for dealing with it, but you're not the same person anymore. a lot of these guys, they look the same. They get out there and they're ripped. They got six packs. They're fucking bouncing around. But they know there's something wrong. They know their elbow sucks. They know their neck is fucked up. They know they probably needed a back operation. There's a lot

1:09:39 of that. And that's just the numbers, the numbers of training sessions, the numbers of times you've been taken down, the numbers of time you've been leg kicked, the numbers of time you've been hit with jabs. There's just so many numbers that add up. And the human body can only take so much. And then there's also just the manic motivation of wanting to be great. It's not the same as maintaining greatness. Wanting to be great is like you are obsessed. It is so special to you. It's like you can almost taste it.

1:10:08 You believe in yourself. You're going to make it. And then you show up at that championship day like when he fought Joseo Aldo and this look in his face. Like he had done everything he needed to do for this moment. He was dead calm and he lands the perfect left hand. Just blap! Just flatlines him. in 14 seconds or whatever it was. It was crazy, right? So there's that. You can only do that for so long. He did it again in the Eddie Alvarez fight, his next fight when he went up to 55, became a two-division champion. It was fucking spectacular. I don't know how long you could do that, man.

1:10:41 And so then you see those guys fight as they fight later in their career. It's like Connor, if he lost that fight to Max Holloway any other way, like if he got beat up and stopped, people would look at him like he's that. He's that guy. I think you have to look at them like they were when they were in their prime. There's a moment, a window of excellence where all fighters get to.

1:11:05 And I always point to BJ Penn, because BJ Penn and his prime was fucking insane. I would put prime BJ Penn at 155 pounds against anybody ever, anybody at 155 ever. I don't know if he would have beaten Khabib. Khabib is the all-time great. I don't know if he would have beaten Islam, but I know it would have been a nightmare. It would have been a nightmare. He was a fucking phenom. And when he was in really great shape, when the Morinoviches were training them, and he was doing all those crazy pliometrics, he had this insane gas tank.

1:11:37 He was just a monster, just an insane genius fighter. Do you think there's a difference between trying to make it and trying not to fall off in terms of motivation and how people feel in terms of their momentum? Yeah, sure. Yeah. There's the drive of wanting a thing is so strong. And then once you get it, it's like, The fear of losing the thing. There's that.

1:11:58 And then some people, they just love being a champion. They just love the feeling of dominating everyone. They want to continue to dominate people. And those people, they're the Anderson Silvas. They're the ones who have the long reins where, like, everybody's just terrified of them. This motherfucker has just got this down. He's just ready, you know? And there's a few guys that go on these long runs.

1:12:16 And just like, John Jones is the greatest example. His run is so long. It's crazy to be relevant at his age after being the youngest UFC champion ever at 22 years old to still be considered the greatest heavyweight alive. Is that still the youngest? Mm-hmm. And he's still considered the greatest heavyweight alive currently at 37. Even though he relinquish his belt, he's like, eh, you can keep it. I'm going to do whatever I want to do.

1:12:49 I've been getting obsessed with the low-kick championship. Have you seen this? It's horrible. Yeah, it's horrible. Bro. You like it? I think, well, I feel less bad watching that. Have you ever been low-kicked? Yeah. So it doesn't bother you watching that? Less than watching Power Slap. Yeah, I agree. I mean, this actually is probably just because of the relative, like, pain of seeing somebody stand there as you're going to swing an open palm at their face. It's just a CTE factory. Yeah. And then, yeah, for me, the low-kick championship, because at least it's iterative.

1:13:22 It's never a one and done. I haven't seen any of the fights that have been a one and done yet. No, I haven't either, which is so horrible. Yeah. I've seen a lot of leg breaks, though. In that low kick championship? Oh, yeah. Oh, I haven't. You haven't? No, I hate those. Do you want to see some? No, thank you. I've seen a lot, a lot. It's always the kicker. Maybe sometimes the kicky. There's no way that the person being, what, FEMA?

1:13:45 Oh, people have broken their femurs in fights before. Yeah, definitely. Oh. I think that happened to Dennis Alexio versus Stan the man Langenetus. So see, yeah, this guy's going to, don't do it, Jamie. Don't you fucking do it. There it goes, Jesus, Jamie. You son of a bitch. See if you can find Dennis Alexio versus Stan Longonidas kickboxing. So Stan the man Langenetus. He used to be actually trained by my old trainer, Shuki. My friend Shuki, he was from Majiro Gym. He's from Israel. Went to Majero Gym in Holland, fought out of there, trained out of there, and then came to Woodland Hills. And he was running the Majiro Gym in Woodland Hills. He was Stan Launjinitas as trainer.

1:14:38 And Shuki's like an elite kicker. Like his kicks are insane. And he taught me a lot about like low kicks and like how to deliver like more. more effective and like how to set up low kicks. He's a great coach. So he was training with this guy. And Stan kicked so hard that Shuki was holding pads for him and he wound up getting a hip replacement. Because this guy was blasting his leg so hard while he's holding the big shield that he wound up getting a hip replacement.

1:15:07 That was one kick. Yeah, watch this. So Stan the man, Langenas was an animal. Big fucker, too, man. Big fucker. So watch this kick when he lands this kick. right there boom he lands that one low and he's hurt goes down see his leg snapped says one calf kick so it wasn't his femur I'm sorry it was his tibia let's see it again it's crazy so he throws the kick and Langenetus was a fucking powerhouse dude look at the power in that boom and it's a check kick so he's not even stood on it no man he checked it it just fucking cracked it in half I mean, that wasn't even planted. So his leg was up in the air and Longinia just kicked so fucking hard and he snapped it. I thought it was his femur. That's how long ago I've seen that fight. Is it a compartment syndrome?

1:16:00 Is that something that can happen as well? Mm-hmm. That happened to Austin Hubbard. Can you explain what that is? Yes. So what happens is when you get a bunch of different impacts to your legs, you've got all this internal bleeding. you know you've massive contusions like if you ever looked at his Austin Hubbard's leg from the op- Find that you want to get grossed out So he's one of the only guys that I know of that fought in the UFC That because of compartment syndrome he had to have an operation Where they opened up the side of his leg like all the way And you see the tissue inside of it how badly destroyed it was Look at that see that image that you just showed That brown stuff on the bottom That's actually his fucking

1:16:45 tissue. That's the meat of his leg. That link isn't available. But that's it. You can see it there. That's not tape. This is like the screen little tiny one when you click on that. It'll be the big picture. But that picture you can see it. See it where he's in the hospital with his thumb up right there? That one. Go to that one. So you see the side of his leg? Look at the slice. All that black stuff? That's his muscle. So they've opened up his skin. tissue to allow the drains to get in there and allow his leg to heal. Yeah, crazy. That's fucking horrible.

1:17:26 It's horrible. Okay, maybe I don't like a low kick championship anymore. Well, uh, Uriah Faber was one of the toughest people that's ever walked the face of the earth. He fought Jose Aldo and Joseo Aldo destroyed his leg with the point where like the, the whole thing was swollen like twice the size and purple. And that was when I first started hearing about fighters. using hyperbaric chambers for recovery. So Yariah was really the first

1:17:52 guy that I'd ever heard of that was accelerating his recovery from... Yerai is very smart and he's always on top of all the latest training methods and he runs Team Alpha Male in Sacramento. And so they were putting him in hyperbaric chambers. And then I was like, oh, that's interesting. So then I started looking into it. I was like, oh, this is before anybody thought of it as an anti-aging protocol before they did any of that stuff. He was like one of the first guys that I've heard of that was using it. to recover from injuries. Michael Jackson was using one.

1:18:21 Was he? Yeah. Yeah. It was a wacko Jacko's coffin, and it was him laid down in a hyperbaric chamber. That's interesting. I wonder what he was doing it. I mean, he was into some pretty crazy health stuff as well, I think. Well, he was into some non-healthy stuff. Yep. That's crazy. He-he. He was into getting sedated. That's also true, which, you know, too much of that. 86 he was doing it. Wow, 86.

1:18:49 That's crazy. Yeah, fuck you, your eye, favor. It does help you. It's so good, dude. You were telling me that it's really helped you quite a bit, huh? Yeah, the hyperbaric chamber is such an unbelievable tool. I mean, the reason that I think not many people talk about it is it's so inaccessible. It's Michael Jackson's secret plan to live forever. I said it would make him live to at least 150. Well. 50 vitamin pills a day. That's the plan, I guess. That was the plan. It's like a proto-Bryon Johnson. He was just talking about hyperbaric. He says it's the number one intervention of everything that he's ever tried.

1:19:25 But it's so expensive and time-consuming and kind of awkward that it doesn't make sense. I've been looking at the backyard ultra races. Have you seen these as well? Backyard ultra races? Yes. So you run a four-mile loop every hour. In your backyard? No. Well, yeah. I guess so. People do it on ranches. There's one here at Bear Performance. There's a bunch of others. Every hour, on the hour, you have to run four miles. Okay. You go until only one person's left.

1:19:56 Oh, fuck that. So it was made by the guy who created one of the most famous orienteering runs. And what he didn't like, it's a super, super difficult run. They included tearing pages out of books to ensure that you'd been to the right place. And sometimes the map didn't work. Lots of people didn't finish this race. But sometimes they did. And he wanted to create a race. that nobody would win. The only winner would ever be the race, right? Because eventually when you're the final person, when number two's dropped, you don't keep going, you give up. So this guy called Mark Dowdell just won. It's called Last Soul Standing. And he just did a 96 hour race,

1:20:35 96 hours, four miles, every single hour, 395 miles over basically five days. He's just completed that. And the guy that currently holds the record, this dude called Phil Glowell. He owns that he's got the record at 119 laps. So for every lap it's one hour. He's going to do in three days time, he's going to try and do seven days straight. 168 hours without stopping. 168 hours, four miles every hour. Jamie, we have to edit this out of the podcast so Cam Haynes doesn't hear about it. I don't want him to die. I think he's had a crack at it. Oh, God.

1:21:12 Has he had a crack at that? I think he's done some of them. I know that Truitt's been associated with Nick Bear at Bear Performance, and they do a lot of those as well. Dude, that sounds like someone's going to die. I mean, what's fascinating is you have this one hour block, and you have to have completed the lap by the time that the next hour begins. But you can either go quickly and get maybe 15 minutes or so of a little bit of rest, maybe can have a tiny little sleep or get some food in. Or you just keep going the whole time. Or you can move a little bit more slowly and just come into land before.

1:21:46 and then basically just keep going. So the pacing, the nutrition, the sleep. But yeah. And as soon as you can't make the four miles in an hour, you're done. I'm trying to find the video. Wasn't he trolling the guy at the end? Like, he was going slow, and he just sort of like kneeled down behind him and waited for him to go. And as soon as he went, he was like, I'm right behind you. I'm right behind you the whole time. I'm not going anywhere. Trying to give him to quit. It's all mental games, I think,

1:22:10 in that last little bit. I don't know. That distance running stuff's fucking gnaw. It's so cool. It is crazy. But it's interesting how they can maintain that pace for such a long time. Like the pace is not bad. It's not they're not walking. They're running. Yeah, it's a little shuffle. It is, but so it makes me wonder, you know, and like in terms of MMA, there's guys today that their cardio is so insane that they've completely raised the bar. Marab Dwar Wavish Wille is the best example. His cardio is so insane. He's completely raised the bar for what we thought was possible in a fight. five round fight. I mean, this guy just has this fucking insane work ethic and he's always in the gym and he's always training and his cardio is just so elite because it's just built upon layers

1:22:59 upon layers upon layers. And it makes me wonder, we have this idea in our head that a person can only go so hard for five rounds because you're going to, you can't recover. I don't know if that's true. I have a feeling that much like these marathon runners and ultras and all these people that are doing triathlons and Iron Man, that you can build up your endurance over time. If you keep pushing and keep pushing it, as long as your body doesn't break, and this is the real problem with MMA, your body can break. Because you know, you're wrestling and getting kicked and punched. But if you can build it, I think it's like everything else. It's layers upon layers.

1:23:40 if you've never let off the gas and you keep going, your body will adapt, your body will adapt, your body will adapt. And eventually to get to a point where you could kind of go like 80, 90% for five rounds. Which would be fucking terrifying. It's fucking terrifying. And Marab is kind of almost there. How old is he? He's older now. That's what I was thinking because the problem... I think he's 36? In order to get that baseline of cardio, I think it's going to take such a long time to accumulate it.

1:24:08 And the problem is that you're going to lose some of the explosiveness, you're going to accumulate some injuries. So if you got rid of the fighting bit and just did backyard ultra or something similar, then you've got maybe 42, 45, maybe even someone who's 50 might have not done the damage of the impact. 35, 35 years old. He'd be 36 in January. And you think he's got the biggest gas tank?

1:24:30 The best. It's insane. His gas tank is extraordinary. He wilts people. You see it. It's just like it's insane. He never stops. She's never stopped coming at you. And it's like he doesn't wane. Like everybody wanes. Everybody slows down the third. You know, he's not. He's like, ha, ha, ha, blah. It's like a pit bull, man. It's crazy. And it's just hard work.

1:24:53 Famously, Daniel Kormier went to visit him on the Sunday after he won the world title and he went to his house and he was out running. He just won the world title. And he's outrunning. He just never gets off the gas. And as long as you just... Did you see this guy? Oh, yeah. The record. For the mile? Yes, I did. Unbelievable. 27-year-old record, I think. He beat it by half a second. Yeah, he's another guy using altitude training. He lives at altitude.

1:25:21 It's 16.2 miles an hour average for four minutes. That's crazy. That's so fast. How fast is the record now? He had those 342. That is so fast. That guy behind him is like, fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Good British man Look at him go man He looks so strong too Like it doesn't look like he's fading at all No That's so impressive It's cool that they had the Chase a light behind him as well To know where he needs to Bro he is just separating himself From that dude in second place I only get by half a second too Unbelievable You just did it Crazy

1:26:01 Yeah the sickest thing But it took so long for the four minute mile Right that was the whole Yeah movie Mm-hmm and then if someone breaks it. What was it previously? 343.1 or . That is crazy. Unbelievable. Half a second. That's crazy. It's such a miserable distance as well. I don't want to do that. I don't want to run a mile flat out. I know. I mean, he was kind of flat out for a whole mile. But so the guy that I was working with today with the hypoxia trainer, he was telling me about this guy that this guy, his whole thing is like training at altitude and sleeping at altitude. and that it's legalized cheating. If you can live at altitude and you're doing something that requires endurance,

1:26:43 and we were talking about it, I was like, if I was going to give advice to a fighter or if I was going to set up like a fight camp, if I was going to bankroll some big time trainer to set up a fight camp, 100% I put it at the top of a mountain. 100%. Everyone's going to sleep there. Everyone's going to live there. Are the Dagestani guys? Are they at altitude? Oh, yeah, man. Of course.

1:27:04 They're in the mountains. They're mountain people, man. Man. Little mountain goats at the top of this thing. Yeah. Savages. Yeah, it is straight. I mean, looking at Lance Armstrong and what he was doing, he was basically reverse engineering that, but just through pharmacology and blood doping and, okay, well, we can work around that. Yeah, he was doing that, but he was also, he was doing a lot of altitude work too, but he was also doing what everybody else was doing. This idea that Lance Armstrong was this big cheater, if you took away everyone in the podiums that had been, that hadn't been busted. If you took away anyone that got caught with any substances,

1:27:41 I think you would get down to 18th place. I think that's what they said. It was a dirty sport. Completely dirty sport. So he was the best at the dirty sport. So, sorry. I played within the rules. They weren't the rules that were sat down by the Federation, but they were the rules that everybody else was playing by. Yeah. I mean, they got him, and he was guilty, and he did lie about whether or not he did that. They all lied. They were all doping. They were all doing a bunch of shit. You know what I think about?

1:28:11 I think about the fact that lots of pursuits that people go into aren't tested federations. Business. Business isn't a tested federation. If you want to take armadaffanil and work 19 hours a day, you can do that. Right. No one's going to come and stop you. No one's going to say, hey, this share price, that's unfair that you got that share price because you were enhanced.

1:28:29 You were using Adderall or you were using too much caffeine or parazanthine or you were on the new tonnet, whatever. That's a good point. No, that's not a tested federation. Right. But it's as important, maybe even more important to a lot of people. It's more people participating in business than participating in professional sports. Yeah, especially things like Adderall. They're like, you have energy all day.

1:28:47 You can work 16, 17 hours a day. Have you ever used it? No. No. I'm scared of it. That being said, Victoria. It's awesome, though. I'm sure it's fun. Jamie, get us some Adderall. Let's fuck it. Did you, when you talked to Hunter Biden, did you guys talk about crack? All the time. So I told you that I was going to. going to do that and then we didn't do that and you did it. I didn't take the idea, I promise. I told it to you though. You already had it booked? We had it booked in advance. But you didn't tell me you had it booked when I told you that we were going to do it. Should I have told you?

1:29:16 No. Doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Some of the guys got upset. Like, he took our idea. We were going to do a protect our parks with Hunter Biden, but then Ari, because we thought Ari couldn't make it, we wanted to do another protect our parks. And Ari was in London. And Ari was like, he's moved to London. Yeah. And he was like, I'll fly back for that. And we were like, all right, fuck on our Biden. And so we didn't. It's just as well I got him. Or he'd have had no fun.

1:29:41 Yeah, he talked a lot about crack. Dude, I've got to say he's so likable. It's terrifying how likable he is. Well, you know, I mean, he grew up with a politician and, you know, he's a smart guy. Maybe, maybe. I mean, I was trying to find the, was the manipulative game that's being played here or whatever. It's interesting that he took a long time out of the public eye. many, many years

1:30:05 and then he sort of reemerged and some people are very upset some people are very upset that these conservatives are platforming him like you know they're criticizing that but you don't want to hear about what his story's like I mean this guy's obviously he lived a wild life like you got to ask him I wanted to ask him the question what was it like to be the most Google drug addict

1:30:26 in history probably and it's fucking wild what does it feel like to have that much pressure on you but regardless forget forget who his dad is, forget that it's U.S. politics, forget that it's the future of the country. Like, there is a person in there, and there is a person under a level of scrutiny that has maybe never been seen before. Like you wake up one day and he told us the story of what it was like to just have the laptop. It just, this story bursts. And it is everything. It's the future of the country. It's the future of your dad's legacy. It's your life.

1:30:58 It's your family's life. He's two years into sobriety at the time, I think. The temptation comes back. Is the laptop. real or is it really they hacked into his cloud and then they put it on a laptop because i've heard him say that that there's way too much data for it to have ever been on a laptop it's 20 years yeah it was two decades everything every text message every photo every every every every every every yeah so he you get in through the laptop what is his but is it actually in the laptop or did someone put it in

1:31:30 the laptop i think like i don't want to say anything incorrect So let's just make sure that I'm correct. Or let's just find out what the truth is. Is his position that they hacked into his cloud and that's how they got all those videos of him like smoking crack and going 170 miles an hour and getting foot jobs and all that stuff? Like that all was in the cloud that wasn't on a laptop that he just handed to a repair store. That that's a bullshit narrative to cover for the fact that they hacked into his cloud and got all of his photos and videos.

1:32:04 He didn't give us the specifics on that one. What I do think would have happened is maybe you get into the cloud through the laptop. If you've got access to that, if you open up the laptop because you need to have the logins, then you can just get into someone's eye cloud through that. You still have to log in. Once you get the laptop, you have to have the passwords. It's crazy, dude. I would assume he's got some passwords.

1:32:26 No. He did not definitively. This doesn't have no real answer to that. He did not definitively claim the Delaware laptop was hacked or stolen in a 2021 CBS. interview. This is a long time ago. He said did not know whether or not his and floated, it was his and floated several possibilities, including that a laptop was stolen for me, that he was hacked or that Russian intelligence was involved. Okay, he's doing the Russia, Russia, Russia shit back then. That was 2021. You could get away with that. You could get away

1:32:53 with anything. This is also while Joe Biden was the president of the United States, right? So there could be a laptop out there that was stolen from me. Okay, this is not a good timeline. We've got new shit. Yeah, the timeline in the more recent interviews, I believe his position was that the amount of data wouldn't even have fit on a laptop. And then it's bullshit. And they're calling it the laptop. But a lot of it is just his personal information that he had somewhere that was hacked.

1:33:22 So then the narrative is not that this guy was so cracked out that he had a laptop filled with him getting his dick sucked. I've been sober for two years at a time. I'd have to push it for more clarification. Okay. In August 2026 interview with Tucker Carlson, Biden reportedly said, hey, reportedly, you're perplexity. Come on. You're supposed to tell. Didn't you listen?

1:33:43 Did you watch perplexity? In August 2026, interview Biden reportedly said, they hacked my cloud. He denied the full collection described as his laptop could all have originated from one device, saying it was way too large. He suggested an unknown actor, potentially an intelligence service or another person. could have taken digital material, rather, and combined it with the purported laptop narrative. So that's possible. In a July 26, Substack launch, he wrote that the Providence was never established, that no court forensics examiner had certified a chain of custody sufficient to make evidence

1:34:21 rather than theater. He did acknowledge that material associated with reflected his addiction struggles. See, there could be a lot of things going on. One could be that he was cracked out and he left the laptop and he doesn't remember being cracked out and leaving the laptop. But the idea that there's too much data that it wouldn't have fit on a laptop. The problem with that is there's two terabyte hard drives on laptops now. That's a lot of data. What was a, well, this is 2020, right?

1:34:52 Here's the one thing too I find very interesting about it. What? It's on the screen. The guy who ran the shop that the laptop was supposed to. who dropped off at. Because he's legally blind. Could not confirm who the customer was because he's legally blind. Oh, how convenient. How convenient. He probably never went to that place. It's probably a total fake story. And they made up a fake story. Maybe they even stole a laptop of his. Well, the thing that I was most fascinated by was he was two years sober when that happened. Now seven. Allegedly.

1:35:28 Allegedly. Although he is tested, I think. By who? Is dad? Yeah, maybe. Oh, you look great, son. Clean it up. He told me that he packs his bags with a witness. When he packs his carry-ons and stuff, there's a witness there to it. Whoa, so he doesn't get fucking, oh, wow. In case someone snuck something into his bag, who's going to believe him? Like, who's going to believe? That's crazy. Yeah. Imagine living like that. The amount of scrutiny.

1:35:55 That was what I was most fascinated by. I was thinking, what is it like to have the entire world-bearing. down and you're not only the world, the country, the future of politics, your dad, your dad's legacy. Are you going to get a pardon? Who even fucking knows? Who cares? Probably not. Like, oh my God. And then there's the reality. Don't go back to drugs. Don't use your drugs again. This is how you would have fixed it. This is how you would have done it in the past. Two years sober. Yeah. Oh my God. Two years sober is so gentle too, so dangerous. You're not even out of the woods. And when you think about that whole story, how that blew up right before the election,

1:36:27 it could have really been an intelligence plot to try to sink Joe Biden. And they countered it. And the way they countered it was by blocking the story from Twitter. A factual story from the New York Post. This is from CBS News. Giuliani apparently held the information for months and released it less than three weeks before the election. Giuliani has long been involved in efforts by the president and his allies to highlight Hunter Biden's work overseas to damage Joe. Biden and boost Mr. Trump's re-election campaign.

1:37:00 And in 2019, and in 2019, met with a Ukrainian lawmaker who had been deemed an active Russian agent by the U.S. government. What is it, the October surprise? That's what they call it. Yeah. So each year there's been something that the losing side has pointed to as the justification for why it happened. Russia Gate, Biden laptop suppression. And then in the most recent one, it was podcasts. Yeah. But that was, well, this is what, had it not have been for the sway that occurred due to this run that was done on podcast, that's what moved the election. Well, the real problem with that narrative was I don't know anybody who wasn't willing to talk to Kamala Harris. I was willing to. Everyone reached out. I tried to talk to her a bunch of times. And they tried to pretend that I made it difficult.

1:37:49 It's a fucking complete horseshit lie. They also lied and they said they came down here and checked out the studio and did a run of the place. They did not. They did not do that. They did not. Trump's people did. And I've said that. If you want to say that they knew that someone did it, but I don't know how much they're communicating with each other.

1:38:08 Trump's Secret Service people came down and they scanned the whole place. They went through the whole place before he came in. But she's alleging that her people did a run of the studio. They did not. No representatives from her organization. We're ever here and that it would be insufficiently secure or something is that what no I mean they said that we were making it difficult I was making as easy as possible and the one day that she offered to do it I was already booked with him And I even said I would no fucking way

1:38:37 And I said I would do it but it would have to be she had a gig in Houston she was doing like a speech in Houston I think that was one of the ones where like Beyonce came out and everybody thought she was gonna sing and she didn't So everyone got mad yeah everyone got mad so she was somewhere else in Texas and I said listen if she's when she's done with that I'll do I'll do a podcast at midnight come on in I go whenever you want to do it I'll do it the next day I'll do it that night would have been one of the wildest 24 hours of your life I was down to do that and that was gonna release them both at the exact same time unreal that was the idea but she wasn't willing to do it Jamie they even gave me

1:39:12 a bunch of things this is also that they didn't tell the truth about there was a bunch of things that they said she didn't want to talk about and I said fine She didn't want to talk about her record for prosecuting marijuana possession in California and then for using those people that were supposed to get released past the date that they were released to fight wildfires. She didn't want to talk about that. Fine. And then there was one other one. I forget what the other one was about that they didn't want to talk about. And then they came back and said they did want to talk about marijuana legalization.

1:39:43 Oh, immigration. They were not so keen on talking about immigration. Maybe it wasn't immigration. Was it immigration, Jamie? Do you remember? I don't remember what the other one was. But I was like, fine. I'll ask her about cooking. I don't give a fuck. Like, let's talk. Like, I just want to sit down across and find out who you are. We'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. I'll ask you if you believe in Jesus. We'll figure it out. Do you believe in UFOs?

1:40:05 Like, what do you think? Well, you could release the files? Like, I'll find out who you are. Let's go. You know, maybe I like you. Maybe no one's had a chance to see you for this way. Maybe you can laugh and joke around and be like a real person instead of like being a person with sound bites because you can relax because you know there's no time constraint.

1:40:22 Who fucking knows? But we didn't get to find out. So to say that you're blaming podcasts on her not getting elected, how about the fact that you spent 1.4 billion fucking dollars and you put someone in without a primary and you blew all this money and you still lost? Like you guys fucked it up. You fucked it up. You had all this momentum when she had that one speech. It's like, say it to my face. They were like, yeah.

1:40:48 Like, they had it. If she never did another fucking speech and never did a podcast, never did anything, and only did pre-prepared, like, monologues like that. Game over. Game over. Game over. She's younger. She got more energy. She's like a new, fresh thing. Let's go. How much do you think that run of podcast for Trump did move the needle? Have you got any idea? It did a lot. I think it did. I think it, the one, the one with Theo Vaughn, I think, moved the needle first. And then the one with me, I think you got to see him fuck around a little and relax and talk about things.

1:41:30 And you got to see a human being instead of like a cartoon. But you only got to see one side of the election do that. You didn't get to see it. Yeah, that could have happened with her too. Like, I'm not a hard interview, man. I don't want to get in arguments with people. I'd like to get in discussions with people. I'm not into being insulting. I'm not into being shitty. I'm not into doing that. I just wanted to talk. Like, if you want to run the president, you want to be the commander-in-chief of the greatest army the world's ever known, like, let's have a conversation. I don't think that's that hard to do.

1:42:04 And if you can't do that, like, well, what are you hiding? Who are you? I think it was a lot of her people that didn't want her to do it. First of all, there was a lot of people that are, like, super-woke and just didn't want her to, and in any way to be associated with me. And then there was a lot of people that were really worried that she was going to say something that fucked it up or that we were going to get into something that she can't defend. You know, because there was a lot of things that really did, like, make people go, what? Like when she said she wouldn't have done anything different than Joe Biden when she was on the view, I don't think I'd do anything different. And everybody's like, oh, great. This is nuts. We were trying to vote for you. Fucking lie to me.

1:42:43 There was definitely that. And then there was some, you know, some crazy stuff she said, too. Like when she was vice president, I was saying, like, how dare we say Merry Christmas? Like, you get those clips and you go, wait, what, who are you? Who are you? Do you believe that? Do you really believe how dare we say Merry Christmas? Or is this like a crazy thing that you went through that day?

1:43:03 Well, it's wild to think I'm worried about being too bombastic when the person that I'm going up against is Donald Trump. You know what I mean? Well, some people, they fuck up a few things. and then they're terrified they're gonna fuck up. So every time they do an interview, they're like, I don't wanna fuck this up, I wanna fuck this up. And that's when the staff gets involved. Like they wanted one staff in the room.

1:43:24 I'm just like, fuck no. No, you can't have staff in the room. The fuck out of here. Fuck out of here. They also wanna know if it's edited. Like we edit things like this, no. You gotta, people have to find out who the fuck you really are. But that feels scary because there's no get out of jail free time. It's supposed to be scary. You wanna be the president. You want to be the president. It's the scariest thing of all time. Yeah. You got to deal with potential nuclear war, okay? I think you can sit down for a conversation. It's not even me.

1:43:56 Even if it's not me. Sit down with a bunch of other people. But sit down with people that are going to ask you real questions, really talk to you. You know, like, I don't know what happened on the Caller Daddy podcast, but I think it was very short. And I don't think they got into anything deep. Like, you got to ask, like, the immigration thing was nuts. You have to ask, like, what are you?

1:44:14 doing? Why do you guys have an open border? Why are you just letting all these unvetted people from third world crime infested poor countries? Desperate people, desperate people, desperate that want to walk to America. Do you know what crazy that is? And we're just letting them all in without knowing how many of them are just trying to make a better life and how many of them are drug cartel and how many of them are terrorists and how many... The fuck are you doing. What are we doing? What's happened with the status of immigration? now. I know that they put the brakes on it. They stopped like an enormous number of people crossing the border, like an enormous number. I think it's down like what is it down? Like how many,

1:44:56 what is the percentage of illegal border crossings down since Trump has been in office? They could have done it the entire time, man. They wanted that border open. They wanted those people coming in. They wanted to flood the census. They wanted to flood those swing states. They wanted to get people that are here and give them citizenship. They wanted to get them on Medicaid. They want to get them on health care. They want to give them free cell phones. They wanted to make those people voters. And they wanted to try to just make it like it's California, like the whole country is California. Like you can never leave. You can never escape. It's one party runs it forever and they run it terribly. And it gets more and more terrible and they need more and more

1:45:37 money to make it more and more terrible. That's not a great case. Fuck me. Well, I just... Well, it's not the case now, but this is not great either. Okay. January 2025, Border Patrol recorded 29,000. In the first full month of the administration, February, that fell to 8,000, about a 71% month to month decline. So all told, what's the percentage of decline? What's the percentage of decline based on 2026 versus 20203? Let's find that out. 2025 versus 2023. Data. Okay, let's see what they say. What percentage is it down?

1:46:30 88%. It's down 88%. It's down 88%. You know how crazy that is? That's crazy. That's crazy. So they were letting millions of people in. And we didn't know who they are. And, you know, the idea is like if you want to be a kind, compassionate person and immigrants deserve what you have and, okay. But we have to know they're not murderers, folks. Okay, we can't just, have you ever been to like the worst places of the third world? Probably not. If you did, you wouldn't want those people just like roaming around your neighborhood when you have to leave your garage and go to work. You wouldn't want that because they'll, they just look, oh, the guy's not here.

1:47:15 I'll break into his house. How much of this is a luxury belief that the people that are espousing the things that they're supporting aren't the ones that are going to be impacted by it? It's the same as I told you this last time I was on. There was a house near where I live in Austin that had a defund the police sign in the front yard and a private security sticker on the front window. That's cute. People are cute.

1:47:40 Well, there's a lot of that. It's a lot of white people. White people are a real problem. Wow, that's this. Dude. Privileged white people. It started dropping in 2024 because of a Biden asylum change or something. Yeah, sure it did. Listen, they probably tried to put the brakes on it a little bit when they were losing the election. You know, when they were getting the polls in, they were like, oh, my God, run this a little bit. Yeah, for sure. Otherwise, they would have done it. 2023. They're not, they're doing it because of a political reason. They probably would open it right back up if Kamala won. Like we, you know, no one's illegal on stolen land. Come on in. You know, it's. Meanwhile, Victoria's Secret is up 300% year on year, the share price because of Ozempic. I found this out yesterday. What? 300% increase. Because of Ozempic?

1:48:33 So what the proposed reason for this is that millions of women have lost so much weight that their bras have stop fitting. And because they're smaller, they're now going and getting more seductive underwear. 300% increase, urine, yeah. Hot little stick figures. That's what's happening to it. Osemex's a fucking hell of a drug. Here's another thing I found out that women are getting bridal dresses fitted, but they're having to predict where their weight is going to come into land. So some women are losing up to 50 pounds.

1:49:03 They're losing so much weight between ordering the dress and the wedding that these bridles bridal stores are having to get them to sign waivers in case they don't make weight like a fighter. Like if you don't make weight for your bridal dress, you go, well, we can't give you another one. You've said that you're going to lose 50 pounds using GLPs over the next nine months or 12 months or 18 months or whatever. And because they're scared that they're going to end up getting these refunds, they're having to sign waivers. I think the future implications of those EMPIC on economy, consumption. Like, think about what most of consumerism is. It's not stuff that people need.

1:49:38 It's like things that people want. It's like craving. It's impulsivity. It's repeated purchase. And that's exactly what GLPs act on. They're not just suppressing appetite. They're suppressing craving in a lot of different ways. And it's like what happens to a capitalist system when you suppress pharmacologically suppress craving? I want this thing. Well, maybe you don't. Not in quite the same way because it seems to work on weed. it seems to work on video games. It seems to work on a ton of different behavioral. People don't like wine as much. Okay, so it's not just calories. It's more than that.

1:50:13 It's consumerism as well. I think what happens when you intervene pharmacologically in people's desire to crave is just, that is the other side. So AI on one side and fucking GLP is on the other. Well, they say that some people have different reactions to GLP ones, right? And some people have a lack of desire for relationships. which is really creepy.

1:50:36 Like, you know, what is it about, is it taking away pleasure? Is it taking away excitement? Like, what is it taking away? Like, what stimulation that you're getting by overeating? What is it dulling in the process that also stops drug addictions? Like, it's helping people that have addictions. And it's also helping people that are, you know, that have, like, impulsive behavior apparently.

1:51:05 I think that's true. But the weird one is the side effects of like relationships. Like you don't... Maybe it's craving again. Maybe it's the same thing. I looked at the study on... came out on X and people were talking about it. There was some criticism around whether or not that particular pathway in the brain works the way that it would. But if you're suppressing craving overall, that wouldn't surprise me. No. If you're making people just want less. Right. I don't want that at all. Bill Maher was arguing with Scott Galloway on real time about that.

1:51:36 Galloway was like big on GLP ones. And there's benefits. You know, I think also the thing is dosage. This is an issue. And this is an issue that's been brought up by compound pharmacies. That there's certain people that don't need a big-ass dose that you're going to get. Like depending upon your body weight, depending upon your size, you know, like a 500-pound man probably needs a different dose. than a hundred and thirty five-foot-tall woman.

1:52:06 Is that not being suggested? I don't think so. It's not being advised. I think people are starting to do it through their various health care providers and various doctors have experience with these things that are giving people like smaller doses and less. Then there's the returitide stuff. I say in that right? Retiturutide. Retituritutide. Retatututide. That one is a weird one because that one allows you to keep muscle mass. And that's the big fear that people have, is that you're starving yourself, but you're also losing bone mass and muscle mass. That's because people who don't have good fitness habits

1:52:41 are reducing an already suboptimal diet. They're not eating well, and now they're eating less of not well. They're still not training, which means what happens, because I think about 90% of people that go on GLPs and then come off them gain the weight back. So it's... You don't change your behavior. You don't change your behavior, but you lose muscle on the way down and gain fat on the way back up. Right. So if you end up back at the same way that you were previously, your compositions was. And that's really concerning because you're basically locked in to use them for the rest of time, if that's the case, if you can't use something else to fix it. I know that they were using different things. Like they were using IGF1 along with GLP1s to mitigate the bone density and muscle tissue loss. But the reality of having less calories coming in than coming out is your body's going to eat itself.

1:53:36 I mean, that's what's happening. Which is why you need to do resistance training. Yeah, you have to. You have to lift heavy weights. I'm not heavy, but you have to lift something. So you develop bone density. And this is a giant problem with older people that have never lifted anything. It's that their body composition is just they might look normal, but they're made out of dough.

1:53:56 You can just punch right through them. And if they fall down, they're going to get hurt, man. That snapped. When people get older, like, one of the main ways that people die is falling. What happens? They hit their heads. They slip in the shower. They slip in the bathtub. They hit their heads. They break a hip. When you break a hip, man, the odds of you living more than 10 years reduced drastically. A lot of it is also because at the time that you're breaking a hip, you're probably... Old already? Yeah, old already. But there's, like, real data that show that once people have fallen and broken a hip, Like, that's a catastrophic injury that you've got to think of all the resources that your body has to use and employ in order to heal that.

1:54:36 And then there's the compromise and movement that you're going to have for a long time. You're not going to be able to walk. You're going to need assistance. You're not going to have the same vitality. You're going to be recovering. You're going to be exhausted. People with Alzheimer's disease are substantially higher risk of falling. Wow. Falls can be fatal, especially if they can cause a hip fracture, head injury or complications from hospitalizations or immobes. Research indicated that 60 to 80% of older adults with Alzheimer's experience a fall, more than twice the rate in cognitively normal peers. There was a late, there's a news story that came out recently, Jamie, about a woman who survived for eight days in a bathtub after she fell. Sure. Oh, my God. Insane. So had had a tumble and wasn't found.

1:55:22 I don't know what the fuck she was doing in order to be able to stay alive. I guess if you're in a bathtub, you've got some water. Yeah. Just peeing in the puttub and drinking the water. And hoping for the best. She'd be two years old. Nine days, actually, it says. Oh, my God. She drank water. She managed to splash up onto her face by turning the faucet on with her foot. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Nine days in a fucking bathtub. Crazy. How did she not die of hypothermia? I guess you could heat yourself up.

1:55:51 It's going to run the water. I guess, I mean, is she that good at turning the knobs of her feet? She could scald herself to death? What the fuck, man? Mountain home, rural mountain North Carolina. Oh my God, that poor lady. Let's get her on the podcast. Get her on the podcast, Jamie, before Chris does. Poor lady, we probably have to go to her. Fuck. Probably have to go to the Appalachians. Fuck, man. There's people that get through some shit. I was looking at the studies of how long people have stayed awake for. That gets really fucking knowledge.

1:56:30 Because people go into psychosis. That Lindsay Clancy case thing that's going crazy at the moment, a lot of that is because of supposedly sleep deprivation, on a lot of antipsychotics, et cetera, et cetera. But you don't need to keep people awake for that long to turn them insane. If you're awake for a couple of days, I think all fucking hell breaks loose, which is why those backyard ultras just seems so deranged.

1:56:52 Do you think, how are you even able to apply effort to what it is, How are you able to make decisions about whether you need food or sleep or rest or to go harder or to give up? Well, they all have hallucinations. They all see things that aren't there. Like Courtney Dolealter, she won the – would she win the Bigfoot? Is that what she won? When she came on? She beat the second place dude by 10 hours or something crazy.

1:57:19 Imagine you come in second place and your second place by 10 hours? Yes. Maybe half a day. The race is three days long. three days of hell? Well, the crazy thing about endurance is that as you get longer and longer, the difference between the sexes starts to even out. And I think in water, it evens out even quicker because women are more buoyant. Over distances, women are better swimmers. Makes sense. I sing like a rock. Well, you don't have the build for swimming. I'm terrible out of it. You don't have to build.

1:57:47 I recently learned about just coming to my mind, Rory McDonald's walkout music, this story where he changed his number, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And hadn't updated the UFC. It's such a great story. I only found this out. Yeah. Were you there at any of those events when he was walking? I think he came out to like MC Hammer. And people asked him, apparently he got rumbled because he wanted nickelback. And they asked him afterwards, they were like, sorry, we couldn't get you nickel back. And he said, I didn't ask for fucking nickel back. Then we worked it out. And it was just some guy that was a fan that was deciding to submit songs on Rory. McDonald's behalf. The guy got Rory's old number and Rory never bothered telling the UFC and this

1:58:32 guy knew who Rory was and he was just so jazzed up that he could pick Rory's walking music and the guy had a good sense of humor. So he'd pick some whack songs. DMC, M.C. Hammer, DMX, sorry, M.C. Hammer's great. M.C. Hammer's great. I mean, some people love those songs. I think Nickelback's got legs as well. Bro, nickelbacks has some good songs. It's just they're formulaic and people don't like formulaic songs. There's something about them that people think is too much of a formulaic song. But, like, how come you like the Cypress Hill rock star song, but you don't like the rock star song? It's like the same song.

1:59:08 The Nickelback song and Cypress Hill are the same song. Does it? It's the same song. It's the same song. It's the same premise. It's about being a rock star. All the crazy shit that you're going to do if I want to be a rock star and I want all this cool shit. look the Cypress Hill is a better song I'm a big Cypress Hill fan if you if I'm getting to choose

1:59:32 it also starts off with Chino talking like there's not many songs that have Chino Marino from the deaf tons that's true speaking that's true he's laying out what you need to do to be a rock star that there's a lot but like okay we can't play this for everybody else but just for you and me which one we're gonna we'll start off with nickel back start off with nickelback Nickelback rock star So fucking happy about this There's a conspiracy theory That nickelback got taken down

1:59:59 To demoralize America after 9-11 That's hilarious I think they're Canadian Well it was American Like a thrust forward into the world That kind of freedom rock Well they were always a punch line Allow me to get you down the rabbit The limp biscuit woodstock one is a fun one That's now hold on It's trying to load So we'll listen to the nickelback rock star song first. Here we go. Go to Cypress Hill. It's the same song. It's the same song.

2:00:31 It's the same song. No, I love Cypressill. Bro, B-Rill is my boy. I love that, dude. They're the shit. I fucking love these guys. I forgot how hard that song was. It's a way better song. It's a way better song. You're one of the dopest covers ever. Rage Against the Machine, covered pistol grip pump. Have you ever heard that? Okay, while we're doing this, since nobody can listen to this either. Just throw up this. This is one of my favorite Cypress Hill covers, where Rage Against Machine covered Cypress Hill. It's fucking fantastic. It's fucking fantastic.

2:01:06 It's better than the original. That goes hard. I'd never heard that. That goes hard. That's one of the dopest covers ever. There is a, what do we, Jamie's going to compete with you. It's like they had an assignment. It's like Cypress Hill and Nickelback had an assignment. I want you to write a song about how dope it is to be a rock star. You want to be a rock star? You want all this cool shit, right? But Cypress Hill took it from the position of like, all you're going to suffer, all you're going to lose, you want this, you know how hard it is. And Nickelback is like, hey, hey, I want to be a rock star. It's fluffy. It's a little fluffy.

2:01:42 Yeah. Yeah, but it's kind of like an assignment. It is interesting trying to warn people off of something that everybody thinks they want. there's this study that was done on when people enter airplanes and they walk through business class, economy walks through business class, there's an eight times increase in passenger rage incidents. So it's a reminder of your place in the status hierarchy. Yeah. And I think it becomes very difficult when trying to warn people off of, like the rich person telling you that money won't fix your problems,

2:02:14 or the famous person telling you that status isn't going to change your self-worth, or the beautiful, person telling you that looks aren't going to actually make you feel more valuable in the world. A lot of the time when when people hear that, it sounds like a luxury belief. It sounds like someone trying to pulling the ladder up after they've managed to achieve it. And that's why, I don't know, the rock star that reminds you why it's so cool and this is what you could get. Rolling Stone ranked rock star at number 100 in their list of the 100 best songs of 2007. But BuzzFeed listed it as number two as one of the first.

2:02:49 the 30 worst songs ever written. Hmm. Is it really, though? I think they're unjustly criticized, Nickelback. They're not that bad. They're coming back around now. Yeah. They're coming back around. Nostalgia's bringing them back for sure. Yeah. They're not that bad. Do you know why people, like, had out issue with them, I guess, back in the day? No. Well, so, I mean, this was happening when I was in audio school. So that was like when YouTube started, you know, Napster was very big, and people were discovering them.

2:03:18 I mean, it's a little bit of opinion-based, but. But there was a video that came out that went very viral and that played one Nickelback song in the left speaker and one in the right speaker. And they lined up very on the, like every chord change was kind of like at the same time. The verses change at the same time. The formulaic stuff. Yeah, it was very formulaic, so people just sort of like clown them for being too formulaic. Yeah, I get that. Engineers would even say that they didn't like that because they were recording what they call in the box, which would mean they were recording everything very dry and then changing all of the effects after the fact. So, like, nothing that they were playing

2:03:54 was, like, live necessarily. And so some people had a problem with that. I get it. I get it. They're not the stones. They're not the stones. White people music, too. They're not Pink Floyd. You know, I get it. It's white people music. It's 98 IQ. Max. I can't say that. You can't say that. Yeah, I just did. Look, I, uh... That's a good percentage of the population, son. I can listen to some 98 IQ music. I like me some of that. What do you think, I mean, Max, I'm saying Max. Other, people like, it's okay. You know, you can have high IQ and go, that's all right. But you're like, I've got to see Nickelberg. Wow, what is high IQ music?

2:04:36 Pink Floyd for sure. Well, jazz, I don't know. You know, jazz is interesting because I know a couple dumb people that love jazz. And then a lot of brilliant people love jazz also. Tool, tools very high IQ music. If you're into like metal, probably a little disturbed. You're a little disturbed. You're a little mad at your parents. Eric Weinstein brought up the Polyphia. I fucking love Polyphia. Tim Henson rules, dude. That's true. You have to be thinking a lot to even like figure it out. Polyphia is not passive listening. God, there's a lot of great bands, man. I don't know what's high IQ music in that way.

2:05:11 It's popular as well. I'm being silly, obviously. But I was trying to think about what that would be. if it was Beethoven, something more refined? I don't know. To me, that's the most fascinating music, is music when there was no recordings. I am fascinated by the fact that these people wrote down music on paper so that other people could replicate it. And that's how they passed on these amazing songs that people still play in concerts today. There was no ability to record. Well, think about what stories would have been like before we had the written word. You know, there's a lot of really popular musicians, rather, not magicians.

2:05:50 Musicians who don't know how to read music. They don't have to. You can just draw them out on my digital workspace on my laptop. Yeah. They know how to play an instrument. They know what the sounds it makes. I don't have to see those fucking bullshit lines. What fuck is that? Yeah, classically trained. Yeah. I mean, everybody loves the idea of being a savant Renaissance guy sort of outside of the system coming in and I'm breaking the rules in that way. I wonder how often that happens at the highest level. Like, yeah. Well, the highest level is Hendricks, because Hendricks played a guitar upside down, left-handed. Why?

2:06:27 Because he was left-handed. So he played a right-handed guitar upside-down. You ever see the way he played guitar? I don't know jack shit about playing guitar, by the way. This was explained to me. I think Weinstein was the first person to explain it to me. But pull up Hendricks playing the guitar. He would play it upside down. Because it was, you know, not built for him. It didn't matter. He self-taught. And to this day, widely regarded as the greatest guitarist of all time. And the most influential guitarist by far, the most. Like, he was a freak. Like when he came along, I mean, Eric Clapton famously said that he made him want to quit. That guitar's upside down, dog.

2:07:10 Jesus. I didn't know that. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if all of this. guitars were upside down or, you know, some of them were actual left-handed guitars. But I think he played upside down. Hendricks was left-handed, but typically used readily available right-handed stratocasters. He reversed the instrument. This put the headstock controls, bridge angle, and pick up orientation in unusual positions relative to a conventional left-handed guitar. Isn't that wild? Yeah. Fender. Look at this. Fender's Hendrick signature stratocaster recreates some of these visual and functional details. including a reverse headstock and reverse slant bridge pickup.

2:07:49 Imagine like such a Hendricks fan. It's still turned around. No, I mean, I think they did it his way. Wow. I think they replicated it his way. Because like if you're a fucking guitar nut and you love Hendrix, I want to like, why does this guitar bullshit? This guitar's backwards. You know, like Hendrix doesn't play it like this. I'd want to learn on a Hendricks guitar. Fuck yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know, I've been thinking a lot of. about how we assume that wisdom compounds over time.

2:08:18 So I guess not too dissimilar to that. We have this epistemic privilege that we give to a future version of ourselves. So we assume that us now knows more than us in the past or that us in the future will know more than us now and that sort of progress goes in that way. But for some things like matters of emotion or important life lessons, especially things around pain,

2:08:40 I don't think that that's true. So for instance, you could imagine that you're in a relationship with somebody and it's really painful, it's really uncomfortable. And after six months, you bump into them again. And you can't quite remember the sleepless nights and the way that things felt awkward and the pain in the same way as you used to. And you start thinking, well, maybe I should get back with them. Maybe that's, maybe it wasn't so bad. Or the guy that works in a very aggressive job, high-powered, high-paced job, and he's burned out and he can't sleep. And a year later, he misses the status. He misses the acclaim. He misses the accolades.

2:09:11 He misses the camaraderie of working in that organization. And he thinks, well, maybe I could get back. Maybe I could start again. Maybe I could do that again. Or someone that's been addicted to alcohol. And after they've been sober for a couple of years, they think, huh, maybe I should run that back. Maybe it wasn't that big of a deal. Maybe I can do it again.

2:09:29 So there's this sort of fading affect bias, which is this idea from psychology, that says bad memories fade with time, but good memories don't quite the same way. And it's good because it protects us from being pinned underneath trauma that happened in the past. You know, you're not still so worried about your first rejection from a girl in the same way as you might have been shortly after that. So bad memories plus time can equal comedy, but good memories plus time doesn't usually equal tragedy. It's kind of a way to think about it. That's great. It's like a psychological immune system. Got it.

2:10:00 We distance ourselves from things. We minimize them. And it's a really fundamental part of the way that we deal with pain and difficulty in life. One of the problems is it causes us to forget the receipts of why we did the hard. work in the first place. So if you think about why you worked so hard to get yourself off of the alcohol, that was because of the pain that you felt at the time. But the pain that you felt at the time evaporates the further that you are away from it, which is the reason that you actually made all of that work and put yourself through that process to improve your life. So you could imagine

2:10:34 that healing gets rid of the justification that made the healing necessary. So it's just this strange inversion that we always assume us in the future is going to be better education. than us now. Right. We know more. Like that's the way that it works. Like, yeah, of course. I've accumulated more experience. I know more. I'm closer to the future version of me, which means that it's more recent. But in some things, especially matters of pain, discomfort, emotionality,

2:10:58 being in the future actually means being further away from the evidence. And I often think about this when you see people that kind of seem to loop themselves back into bad situations, someone that keeps on getting back into a bad relationship, someone that keeps on getting back into a bad relationship with substance or a job or they just keep on, they seem to be stuck. I don't think it's that they're not moving. I think it's that they're sort of looping back. They're forgetting the justification for why they needed to stop doing this thing.

2:11:24 You know, this idea that healing destroys its receipts and this fading affect bias being kind of the mechanism that works on it. I found it pretty fascinating when thinking about observing my friend's lives. That is fascinating. But I think there's also an element of people finding comfort in familiar patterns. And sometimes those familiar patterns are just failure. They find comfort in failure. They find comfort in falling off the wagon.

2:11:47 It's too difficult. The stress of not drinking is so strong. It's so much that can't handle it. Just give me a fucking drink. Jesus Christ. There's a lot of people that just the pressure of success and not fucking up is so scary and so daunting and just maintaining that they fall into these self-destructive patterns. Why do you think that's the case? I don't know.

2:12:09 You'd have to talk to a psychologist. But it seems to be a recurring pattern with people seeking. comfort in familiar patterns that are failure patterns. They're like maybe it takes pressure off of them to succeed. Because for some people, the idea of succeeding, the idea of getting it, it's like it's so overwhelming. It scares them. It gives them anxiety.

2:12:30 It fucks them up all the time. And when they start doing well, hey, 333 days sober. And you start saying things like that. And the next thing, you just pops into your head. I want a fucking Marlboro. And I want a beer. and I want to go to the bar and see my friends. And you just want to go. Well, that feels like comfort, right? I suppose there is a curse with competence. It's interesting when you see people that are kind of down on their luck. And it makes sense that maybe they might hit the bottle or they might rely on bad suboptimal habits. But when someone's really competent and you keep on seeing them fall back, that's what's particularly interesting. Because you have a look, you've got something else.

2:13:07 You have an alternative here. That's what's really interesting to me. But I think that if you're the sort of person that's good at things and stuff typically goes well, success doesn't become a reason for celebration. It's the minimum level of acceptable performance, right? It's a curse of competence. Success itself is what you have to aim for, and anything less than success would be a failure, and success itself is nothing more than acceptable.

2:13:33 That creates a really perverse incentive, which is I can only not lose. I can't ever win. It's this sort of debt. You wake up every single day behind. And only if you dominate the day perfectly, do you get yourself back up to the minimum level of acceptable performance, which is perfection. And I think the perfectionism is kind of on the rise at the moment.

2:13:53 There's a bunch of studies. I've had a few guests on the show talking about it. And that is... How relatively... What do you mean by it's on the rise? Perfectionism. Versus... I mean, the studies that have been done on it looking at perfectionism as a personality trait, There's a few different types of perfectionism. There's personal perfectionism. I must be perfect. And there's other perfectionism as well that people around me must be perfect too. And that can be particular. How are they measuring the effect of perfectionism? Like, how are they measuring how people enacted in their lives?

2:14:26 If it's on the rise. It's a psychological scale. So they can have a survey, survey questions, things like if I do not do, if I don't succeed, that means I am a failure. I must ensure that everything is controlled. So there's a criteria list. Right, but who are they asking? You know, I mean, depending upon who you're asking, you're going to get a higher version, a higher number.

2:14:48 You know, if you're asking people in West Virginia and trailer parks versus someone who's working on Wall Street, you know what I mean? You're going to get different. It's like, what's the sample size? Well, I'd like to think that they're doing it representatively, but you might be right. There might not be. But anyway, I just certainly from what I can see, this desire that people have to, I'm in a capitalist society, meritocracy. If I can make myself more important, more successful, that means that I'm going to get accolade, please, please, please. And this goes back to the poverty parade thing, right? If you're walking through business class to get to economy, you're reminded. You're reminded of your place within the hierarchy. It's also some really interesting data around if you're in a high income inequality area,

2:15:31 self-objectification by selfies from women on Instagram goes up. And this is a huge study by Candice Blake over in Australia. And they did correlation. It might have been on Twitter rather than on Instagram. And they looked at geolocating images, ranked them based on self-objectification, and then looked at the wealth inequality in that local area. Higher wealth inequality, more self-objectification. Which side is doing the self-objectification?

2:15:58 Women. Women, but women that are poorer or women that are wealthier? All women. All women. All women in that area. because, and the proposed mechanism is, you can see not just how high you could climb, look at the inequality on the top end, but how low you could potentially fall to on the bottom. Gets you motivated. Get you motivated, yeah. And that is the same thing. I think it's a similar sort of mechanism. If you see high inequality, perfectionism is another escape hatch. That's another ejector seat that you can pull. If you're not going to use your assets to get you access,

2:16:31 maybe you could just do it yourself. You could bootstrap it yourself to lift yourself off. launch pad and yeah the perfectionism thing's kind of fascinating to me because I think it's it means that people never really get to escape from the standards that they set and if you're good at stuff it becomes even harder because the minimum level of acceptable performance is just perfection right hmm I'm not sure how I feel about that first of all I think a lot of that it's got to be motivated by social media that's a big part of it because now you're getting to see what everybody has what everybody's doing see what they look like see their

2:17:03 house, see their cars, see all these things, these objects of desire. So that, I think, accelerates people's desires and wants. And then you also get unrealistic beauty expectations from the internet, particularly social media apps that use filters, right? You're getting a very distorted perception of what people look like. And so that probably accelerates the amount of plastic surgery women get and the amount of things that people are willing to do, probably the amount of steroids that young men do, you know, all that stuff. but you know the idea of perfectionism like what are we talking about if you're talking about the pursuit of an in excellence of a sport or of some sort of a discipline some sort of a thing you do people have always done that there's always been like outliers who are trying to be the very best ever at something you know that's always going to be the case and we celebrate that because when you know there's a guy like larry burr that keeps hitting those three pointers everybody's like fuck remember when I was a kid People would throw garbage into the little garbage baskets at school.

2:18:08 They would go, Larry Bird! You know, like, they wanted to be like Larry. They wanted to be like Michael Jordan. They wanted to be like Mike Tyson. People celebrate the outliers. They celebrate these excellent people that stand above and beyond. There is a article about it. I don't know how they figured it out yet. Interesting. There's a, it's been growing since 1989. This is hilarious. Perfectionism is a public health risk. It's associated with increased depression and anxiety. anxiety. Yeah, you're going to be depressed and anxious if you're trying to achieve perfection. But I don't know if that's bad. Like, it's really about whether or not you can manage your fucking mind. That's interesting there. So there's perfectionist is increased in different rates.

2:18:54 Perfectionistic concerns, fear of failure indecisiveness and fear of being negatively judged by others, increase much faster than perfectionistic strivings, the motivation to set extremely high standards. and work hard to achieve them. So that's, I guess, maybe the difference between what you're thinking about, which is kind of positive perfectionism, wanting to set a goal and chase after it, as opposed to fear of failure, indecisiveness, and fear of being judged negatively by others.

2:19:17 Yeah, that's the big one, right? The fear of being judged by others is a real fear because of social media. Go back, stop, stop. But when they say it increased much faster than perfectionist strivings. So the problem with the perfectionist strivings is, then you have to have delayed gratification. You have to have the ability to say, I don't want to do this today, but I want this in the future.

2:19:40 So I'm going to do this today so that in the future I can succeed. That's abstract. That's hard for a lot of people to grasp if they've never gone through a process before. If they've never trusted a process of improvement. This is one of the reasons why sports are so important for young people or any kind of pursuit, like learning how to play guitar or learning anything that's difficult to because you realize there's a process. You realize you start off sucky and then you get better over time. But if you're never doing anything like that, if you're just existing and you've never been challenged to try to improve at something that's very difficult, you don't understand the striving, the perfectionist striving. And even that term, I don't like that term.

2:20:22 Excellence is a better term. You're striving for excellence. Perfection is not possible in anything. There's no, there's nothing perfect that, no matter what you do. there's always going to be a failure. It's a human error. There's always going to be, you might get to, like, here's a perfect example. In games of pool, like in professional pool matches, the rarest of rare matches is a match where a guy runs out the entire set. That means, like, say if you and I are playing a race to 10, okay,

2:20:56 which means the first guy to make 10 games in a row, If you're really good, you might break and have an open run on the first rack and break and have an open run on the second rack and break it up. You might run 10 racks in a row. It's been done. Earl Strickland did it for a million dollars. He won a million dollars at a tournament and they wind up fucking them. But Earl Strickland's like one of the greatest pool players of all time. But they had a million dollar insurance policy.

2:21:25 If someone could run 10 racks to make the tournament more exciting, 10 racks in a row, they won a million dollars. Where Earl Strickland is a mad genius. And he's one of the greatest players of all time. And he knew there was a million dollars in the lines. This motherfucker came focused. And he broke and ran a 10-pack. And they didn't want to pay him.

2:21:42 Like, this is bullshit. But it was on film. The whole thing's crazy. But that's a thousand. Nobody does that. And if you do it, you're going to fall apart in the next game. You'll have another match like the next day. You're never going to be perfect. You're always going to miss. It's just humans. There's going to be error You know Michael Jordan as good as he was Didn't make every basketball You know Mike Tyson lost fights

2:22:05 You're a human There's no perfection But there is Excellence And that's what people are pursuing Really I don't like that term Perfectionism I think what's maybe useful About the term is that Because that is the term It belies the futility Of pursuing it It's like in containing it It kind of mocks the pursuit of it itself. Exactly, because, look, it is ridiculous when you're talking about appearance.

2:22:32 It's ridiculous when you talk about frivolous things that are meaningless. But when you're talking about Magnus Walker playing chess or Magnus Carlson playing chess, that means something. Like, that's a crazy thing that that guy's able to do. That pursuit of extreme excellence is celebrated. When Messi plays soccer, you know, when someone is an outlier, like, we love that. So this idea that you shouldn't love the most excellent. of excellent people that are the most celebrated in society.

2:22:59 And there's a problem with people chasing excellence. Like, if you're saying there's a problem with people chasing perfect appearances, because then you get dysmorphia and you start looking at yourself all weird, then you get anorexia or you get your lips done, you don't know they're too big. Yeah, that's fucked up. That pursuit of perfection is insane. The perfection of the look. But we're not capable of achieving perfection.

2:23:24 We are capable of achieving excellence. So if you call it perfection, it sounds like it's a problem. If you call it excellence. Sounds like a pursuit. Yeah. Federer, really interesting stat that I found out about him. He won maybe about 80, 85% of the matches that he played across his entire career. Crazy. But he only won about 56% of the points. That's the edge. And you have to be a madman to work hard enough to beat everybody 85% of the time. If you're a madman. How many fucking people are playing tennis? How many freak athletes are out there fucking whacking balls all day, doing sprints, lifting weights? And he lost nearly 50% of the points that he played. Crazy.

2:24:09 I fucking love that stat. Yeah, there's this great line that the curse of discipline is that every day looks the same and the curse of indiscipline is that every year looks the same. Ooh, I like that. And I've been thinking about the relationship between discipline, motivation, and obsession. So I think obsession is kind of pretty misunderstood, feared by a lot of people, even the people that have got it sometimes. It's also dismissed by people that wish they had it and they don't have it and they mock it. How so?

2:24:41 Because they look at someone who's like obsessed with doing something and they're like, oh, he's fucking lost his whole life playing that stupid game or he's giving up his whole life for his music. Like what's the point? I think there's a lot of people that want to dismiss the outliers. Maybe they don't like the way they stack up against them. Someone's like the best at something. You watch some guy that can just do this thing that no one else can do the way he does it. Like there's a bunch of people that celebrate it for sure, but there's always going to be a bunch of people that think there's something wrong with it.

2:25:12 Being threatened by obsession is kind of interesting. So everybody wants to, I think it's to do with your relationship with friction. So discipline is friction accepted? It's like, I will force myself to do the thing, regardless of how hard it is. Motivation would be friction removed, which is, like, I want to do the thing. And then obsession is friction inverted. Like, I can't not do the thing. I'm pulled toward it.

2:25:39 It's harder for me to not train than it is for me to train. It's harder for me to not play guitar than it is for me to play guitar. Right. So it's all about that relationship. And this is why I think people get so confused. because from the outside, obsession can look a lot like someone just using a shit ton of discipline, just gritting their teeth and getting through it. What you don't realize, from the inside, they have no choice. They have no choice but to do it. They go to sleep thinking about it. They wake up thinking about it. Yeah. They have no, there is no way

2:26:11 that they can stop themselves from doing this thing. And this is why it's dangerous. Obsession gets a bad rap because if it's pointed toward politics or porn or your ex. Or video games. Or video games. or weed or whatever, that becomes very dangerous. Right. But if you could, and this is why some people, and I'm going to guess that this is you, it's certainly me, some people have problem solving brains. They're always kind of rotating a little Rubik's cube in their mind, thinking, how can I, this is an interesting challenge for me to face and how could I change this thing? How would I fix this thing? Just playing with ideas or trying to get better at something. They're always working on something. someone that's got a problem-solving brain

2:26:50 but doesn't have any good problems to solve will just chew themselves up. They will eat themselves inside out because that is when you get obsessed with stuff that you shouldn't do. That is when you get obsessed with porn or politics or your toxic ex or that person that you think that cut you off in traffic and that's when you chase after them. That is the kind of problem-solving brain without a good problem to solve. And I think a lot of people feel a degree of shame or at the very least, like, they're marionetted by this problem-solving brain, by the speed of what they're going through, the fact that they're always turning something, they can't really get it to switch off. And I think a much easier solution than trying to stop yourself from solving problems

2:27:34 is to just give yourself better problems to solve. It's to start a business. It's to get a pursuit that you really care about. Right, but this sounds very simplistic, though. We're talking about a legitimate mental health issue with a lot of people that don't have the awareness to stop a pattern. You know, like there's a lot of people that need a friend and they don't have any friends. And so they need a counselor. They need someone.

2:27:57 They need someone who can talk to them about what they're doing and give them some tools as to how to navigate out of it. Because there's a lot of people that are just stuck in that rut. I agree. And they could be really good. Like, there's people that are wasting their live gambling. That could be really good at something else. They could be really good. If you applied that effort, that dedication, that obsession to something.

2:28:16 I completely agree. I think the funny thing for anyone that's on the right side of their obsession, they're applying it to something that's positive, kind of a nice situation to realize, hey, you weren't that far away from being that guy on the street. Right, right. If you're honest. With yourself. Your level of obsession could have directed you toward that, that destruction, that distraction, that distraction, that, that, that, that, that. like self-immolation, you're not that far away from it. It's the same fuel.

2:28:49 It's the same fuel source. Yeah, it's just about directing it in a good way and figuring out a way that's going to be most beneficial to you and the people around you. And some people just aren't good at that problem solving. And I think your right to point to what you do in childhood sport is just, hey, if you work hard incrementally at these component skills, there is an outcome in terms of performance that will happen in future. Yeah.

2:29:15 These small amounts, these little efforts will contribute to what you do when you get there. There's delayed gratification, step by step by step, you work up. And it's just, it kind of lays the physics of the system. Yes. Right, okay, and then you get into adulthood and you go, well, I understand. Like, delaying gratification is important. I can win the marshmallow test today, which means I can get something that I want in future. I need to think over a longer time horizon, typically.

2:29:38 I can use my, like, another thing that's kind of fascinating, about that obsession pieces, when you look at someone like Jocco, as a good example, what looks like obsession now, sorry, what looks like discipline is probably just who he is. The 4.30 AM thing, the kettlebell swings, the training. At one point, he was obsessed by that. That was probably what he thought about most. I know it was when he was still in the seals. Like, that was what he wanted, as big and as jacked and as lethal as possible. I don't think that's quite his priority in the same way now. But what you see, if you allow yourself to have positive obsessions and for them to cool over time, you basically start to build up these layers of a pyramid, which is, well, I'm not obsessed by training, but I used to when I was in my 20s.

2:30:27 And now my training obsession is just who I am. It's cooled like lava's sort of cooled into the core of this planet. And it's now who I've become. So my training is just part of my life. And then, okay, what was the net? Well, I started to start. to learn. I wanted to tell the truth. I wanted to be an upstanding person. So I started to maybe go to therapy or I worked on my mental health a little bit more. And okay, that's now cool. That was an obsession for a while. And now I've moved on to the next thing. And I really wanted to build this skill. And I wanted to become a good father. So I worked out how I could deal with my emotions when interacting with my kids. And now I've got that skill. Over time, serial obsessives, I think, whether it's in business or in training or in personal development, what you end up with is this unbelievably, like, well-rounded person.

2:31:13 But if you don't allow yourself to wear that obsession for a while, and a lot of the time when people get obsessed with stuff, they feel guilty. They feel a little ashamed of it. They want to push back against it, but it's the freest discipline and motivation you're ever going to get. You're never going to find... Who feels guilty about being obsessed about things?

2:31:31 I think sometimes people do. About good things? The mockery of your friends around you. Oh, do you, go and go and play guitar again, are we? Oh, going to go and... You little music thing, is that going well? Anybody who falls victim to that, you deserve it. Because that's so silly. You need to stand up for what it is that you want. All the times in my life when I've been obsessed by things, if anybody tried to mock me being obsessed by it, I'd be like, fuck you. Who cares what you think? I couldn't have cared less. That's interesting. I don't know whether it's a British, the mockery, the tall poppy thing,

2:32:06 is a huge part of British culture. If you diverge from the normal path, it is, you know, we have the same number of universities in the top 10 globally, but we produce 20% of the entrepreneurs compared with America. And I think that a lot of that is attitude. It's not fucking Cambridge, Kings, London, Oxford. Like these aren't rinky dink organizations. They attract unbelievable talent. Why is it that we're not producing the same kind of orthogonal thing? self-starter, sovereign, high-agency people

2:32:42 that you might get out of America. I think a lot of it is, it's just not as encouraged. It's not, and it's a shame. And I wish that I could gift some of the enthusiasm back to the UK. Americans basically have permanent first-line cocaine energy. It's just like so enthusiastic about everything. Some Americans. That's true. But I wish that I could get that back. I wish I could push that back toward the UK. It's something that would make a massive difference. I'm sure. I'm sure it would, but it's very difficult to change the way a whole country thinks. It's like the attitude of the country. The attitude of this country is you could make it here. Everybody feels like they're just a few good deals away from being rich.

2:33:27 They're a millionaire that just hasn't made it yet. I think it's one of the reasons that the victimhood culture here has kicked off more, though, that in the UK, you don't expect to be able to be. become much. It's a very class system still over there. When you're a kid, you're not told that you can be anything that you want to be. If you diverge from the path, one of the first things that happens is, what are you doing that for? It's a stupid idea. Good in some ways, because it keeps your feet on the ground, but bad in other ways because it means that you don't go for it. You don't take the big swings in the same way. In the US, I get the sense that kids that are told you can be anything you want to be. The American dream is still very much alive. If you work hard,

2:34:03 you can raise yourself up, pick yourself up by your bootstraps and become something. okay, what happens if you arrive in adulthood and you're not given that which you felt you were promised as a kid? Well, that feels like someone's taken it away from you. That feels like someone's stolen your rightful, your promise. This is the same reason, interestingly enough, the same reason why the women in Korea are some of the most left-leaning in the world, supposedly, that they were given equal access to education over the last few decades. And that meant that as a quite patriarchal society, they were constrained, not able to access education in the same way. They finally get into it. They're emancipated. They're getting degrees and higher education at the same rate as the men.

2:34:51 And then they get into the real world. And all of the employment opportunities haven't caught up. And it's still very sexist when it comes to the way that employment and promotions and wages, there's still a big wage gap there. what that means is in the same way as the American child that was promised all of this stuff as a kid doesn't get delivered it when they become an adult. A lot of the women in Korea, it seems, were promised a lot through their education, and then they arrive, and the rug feels like it's being pulled out from underneath them by a workforce that is still kind of in the darker, in their equivalent of the dark ages. But this is, people throw their toys out of the PRAM. Why would they not? I think that I deserve this. And yeah,

2:35:34 The victimhood culture in America is, I don't know, I wish I could take some of the bits of America and put them in the UK and some of the bits of the UK and put them in America and I think we'd end up. That was what used to be. Fuck it. We'll just bring it back together again. Yeah, I think you're always going to have people that are dissatisfied with their station in life. The question is, like, were they equipped with the tools to create a better life when they were

2:35:58 younger? And whether they were equipped by their family or were they equipped by whatever. thing they got into, a sport they got into when they were young, or some sort of a discipline where they realize this, it's really important that kids realize at an early age about a process of improvement. Trusting the process. That's the common phrase that you hear when it comes to anything that you're trying to do this difficult in this country. Trust the process. Trust the process. You hear about that with coaches, like in MMA fighters, they're always saying that. We've got to trust the process. There's a process of buildup up to a big fight. There's a

2:36:34 process of improvement to get your black belt. There's a process of improvement as you rise through the amateur ranks and do things the right way and keep doing them and you're going to get better. Some people never learn that. And then they get to a point where they think things should have already happened and why haven't things happened for me. And then they get angry. And it's a lot of it is it's very difficult to find a good environment, very difficult to find like-minded people that are empowering. And when you're around them, you feel better, you feel motivated,

2:37:04 you feel inspired. That's also hugely critical for people. It's like people want to think, I'm a lone wolf, fuck off. There's no one like that. That's all bullshit. Those people are very depressed. Why do you think the trust thing comes from? Trust. Yeah, the trust of the process. Oh. I think a lot of people want. It's people that have done it before. You have to learn from people that have already done it. Like if you're learning from a wrestling coach, you're learning from a coach that wrestled.

2:37:33 There's no wrestling coaches that didn't wrestle. They all wrestle and that you learn from them that there's a process. And this is what you're going to do and this is how we're going to get better. And trust me, when week three comes along and you can run this hill, a lot easier than you run it today, you're going to be thankful for these 5 a.m. practices. Like, yes, sir. You're going to trust the process. And if you have a good coach, the good coach will show you at every step of the way as you're improving. You'll hit a move and he'll say you see how smooth you hit that.

2:38:00 You couldn't hit that move last month. So true. It's so true. The inability to be able to see your own progress, to be able to see what you're doing. I think for a lot of people, goals are contracts to self-criticize until we succeed. And that's how people whip themselves into submission. And that's the problem with the perfectionism side of things, as opposed to excellence. Right.

2:38:19 If you were to say, I am not enough unless I am perfect, as opposed to I am good if I keep improving. That seems to be one of the differences between the two. But yeah, goals being contracts to self-criticize until we succeed, that's not what a coach would do. I'm sure that wasn't when you were teaching fucking taekwondo. And someone for the first time manages to land this kick, or they win a really, really close. You can pick out the elements.

2:38:44 But so many people have got coaches in their mind that are, that only ever focusing on the negatives. If you have a good coach and you're in a sport with a bunch of other people that are doing well, it's like statistically proven that your level will be higher than someone who has a bad coach that's around other people that aren't as good. That's just how it always is. The best athletes always come from the great programs.

2:39:09 You know, whether it's Oklahoma State University, wrestling or whatever the fuck it is. There's always like a bunch of different killers that come from a great environment with great coaching. People don't have that in life, right? If you had great coaching in life and you were surrounded by a bunch of other fucking Division I, all Americans who are like getting after it every day, you would be motivated. But most people aren't. And this is a part of the problem. Most people are surrounded by equally lost people who are sad.

2:39:37 And it's hard to rise above. It's hard to say, I don't want to go to the bar because I'm working on writing this book. And I need to write this book. Oh, you're going to fucking write the book. And you're going to ignore your boys? Like, click. You got to know when to find people that are productive and healthy. and are doing things similar to what you're doing things

2:39:58 where you're like pursuing something that you really enjoy. And not just waste your fucking life away drinking every day. Like a lot of people will do. That perspective's hard to come by though. It is. Because you need to break out of the frame that you're in already. This is the lonely chapter thing that I'm kind of obsessed with. You're so developed that you don't resonate with your old set of friends, but you're not yet sufficiently developed that you've built up your new set of friends. And there's this temptation to go back, to go back to the old patterns,

2:40:23 the old habits, the old modes of reassurance, Just like we were talking about with drug addicts falling off the wagon because it's like it's easier. It's easier to fail. It is simpler. And I guess what's interesting, thinking about choosing a new direction and having a degree of self-assurance, like living your life by design as opposed to default is one of the most important things. But I wonder whether people that are in an environment where they don't have any good role models. I didn't grow up in a particularly like salubrious part of the UK.

2:40:58 It's the most working class town in the back end of the northeast of England. And there weren't that many people around me when I grew up that were like the person I wanted to be like. But there were fucking lots of people like the person I didn't want to be like. I didn't want his relationship with gambling. I didn't want the way that he kept on cheating on his wife. I didn't like the fact that he used alcohol to deal with his emotional problems. So yeah, would it be nice if you had the D1 sports coach as your next door neighbor? every morning telling you that you can we should go for a run because little timmy's going for a run

2:41:27 as well yeah that'd be awesome but if you don't have it and you've got some people around you that are reverse role models you can quite easily you can make a lot of progress in life by avoiding pitfalls not just expediting success definitely by weaving away from the things that you know that you don't want the problem is a lot of those people will try to drag you down and if you're in close proximity to them and you have to interact with them on a regular basis it could trip you up But yeah, a lot of people get motivated by, like, if you're around people that are alcoholics and you see them ruin their life, like I have a friend. His family was alcoholics and he's never had to drink his whole life. It's like, I won't touch that shit ever.

2:42:03 He saw it, saw it wrecked people's lives, never had a desire to have alcohol. So that was, and, you know, he became very successful. So he figured out a way to just avoid all the problems that all those people had. They motivated him. But it's better to be motivated by someone who's doing something you aspire to. As opposed to trying to avoid something that's going to. wrong. I think the option that people have now that was never available before is you could hear people that you are, that you admire or that you aspire to be like what they are. You could hear

2:42:34 them on the internet now. There's way more access to inspiration than ever before. You know, when you have some high achiever who goes on a podcast and has a conversation about something that they do and you can realize how this guy built his company or built his life or became this amazing athlete and what they went through, you can learn from conversations that you're not in the room with. You know, you don't get a chance to hang out with, you know, David Goggins or whatever, but you get a chance to listen to him talk now where it just wasn't available before for all the different outliers. Like we were talking about Larry Bird before, who the fuck is Larry Bird listening to? He had to listen to the other basketball players that were

2:43:14 playing with him that were all a bunch of killers. Like, that was the only way he got good. Like, he didn't have the internet. He couldn't just go on YouTube and five inspirational quotes. You know, he couldn't listen to an Alan Watts lecture and have a new perspective on life. It was harder. It's a lot harder. It's a lot easier now. It's a lot easier now to be inspired. It's a lot easier now to also have examples of people that are living a life that is aligned with what you're looking for versus what you see around you all the time. You don't just accept it anymore. There's a lot more people now that are like, I've got to get the fuck away from these people. Well, because the alternative is that you're fortunately, like serendipitously just born into a culture where there's some people like the person you want to be like right next to you. Right.

2:43:58 Like how many people that are excellent individuals that are going to go on to try, that have the capacity to go on to do something incredible are around other people that are like that too. Right. Not meant because by design, you're an outlier. So if you're an outlier, there's going to be fewer people like you. Being able to hear people say, I remember I was listening to a, a, uh, a, uh, I remember I was listening to a, uh, a, uh, a guy. a pot a while ago. And there was this line on it. I think it was Mel Robbins.

2:44:21 It said something like, all my life I'd always felt like someone was mad at me. I was like, huh. I've never heard anybody put it that way before. All my life I'd ever heard. Did Mel Robbins say this? Yeah. I've never listened to her podcast, but Tim Dillon was making fun of her today. And it was the funniest shit I've ever heard of my life. He goes, She makes Gary V sound like Aristotle. Tim Dillon is the best. He's the best. Have you seen Gary V's talking about V friends recently? Did you see this, Jamie?

2:44:56 No. I don't want to watch this. Okay. Don't make me do this. Okay, all right. Well, you made me watch a leg kick. He's a nice guy. Gary's a nice guy. I've had him on the podcast before. Well, maybe we don't need to learn about that. Anyway, just my point is, regardless of who it comes from, you can find inspiration in a variety of places. You certainly can, but there's more now than ever before. and there's never a time in human history where you can be more inspired. You just have to seek it. But you also have to avoid the tricks.

2:45:21 There's a bunch of things that are going to trick you and steal your attention. You've got to avoid the nonsense. Avoid the nonsense on social media and just find things that your time is very valuable. And the same feeling that you get out of watching a, like the same dopamine rush that you get from watching a TikTok video that means nothing. You'll also get from watching a YouTube video where you're going to learn something. It's like it's just as interesting. Interesting. Yeah. Talking about the thing and doing the thing

2:45:48 vie for the same resources. So you need to allocate yours appropriately. Yeah. Like how many people are just great at talking about how their plans are going to go? This is what's going to happen next. I can't wait. I can't wait for this new business that's going to go. And it never happens. Were you around when the secret was a big movie and a bunch of people really believed that they could just sort of manifest their life? Yes. By thinking about it. Yes. That was a fascinating time.

2:46:13 You know that lady. said that the reason the boxing day tsunami happened in Thailand was because the citizens were giving off bad juju. She basically said that they'd manifested. It was like thousands, tens of thousands of people displaced because of a tsunami that happened on Boxing Day. Imagine. I just believe in that. Ah, dude. The crazy thing is the visualization stuff, which I'm sure tons and tons of the athletes that you've worked with or that you commentate on, so many of them are using visualization. but people forget that you need to actually go and do the work as well. You'd think like God will steer the boat but you still have to row as opposed to you can just sit in the boat and think about it and you'll get rowed there yourself. And that's the issue.

2:46:57 The issue is that people want a shortcut and if you can give them a shortcut. Yeah, I think the visualization and the belief is an element. It's an element. If you can never see yourself succeeding, you'll probably fuck it up somehow. But if you can see yourself succeeding and you have a direct point, plan and you also put in the work your odds of success are higher that's all it is but the people that have said that they use the secret to succeed they're only the people that used it and it worked how many people used it and it didn't work probably a fuckload more survivor shift bias is a hell

2:47:30 of a drug it is a hell of a drug yeah yeah it's it's one thing to get what you want but it's another thing to want what's worth getting in life was a lot of people believe that it was like god's will for them to succeed I knew God had a plan for me. Okay. Does God have a plan for that dude is doing heroin in the corner? What about the guy that's pissing on himself?

2:47:53 On Skid Row. Is God have a plan for that guy? God doesn't like him. I didn't like him when he was a baby. I don't like him now. Fuck that guy. Give him fentanyl. How do you come to sort of think about the unfairness of the hands that are being dealt there? When I think about that, it does make me really sad. It makes me sad to think about how unfortunate some people's, like, decks of cards. Oh, yeah, man. Oh, yeah. I mean, you can get born to a pair of junkies. Two junkies can have sex on Skid Row, and you're born addicted to fentanyl right out of the box,

2:48:26 and your life is fucked. Versus if you have a child, you're a great guy, you're educated, you're interesting, you're intelligent, your kid's going to grow up with a cool dad. It's like, it's not fair. It's not even remotely fair, you know, and we don't do enough to fucking mitigate the unfairness. And I don't mean in terms of like redistribution of wealth or anything like that. Making sure there's not that level of despair and poverty in a functional society. You know, and the fact that there's almost no effort, no real concerted effort to clean up any of these problems that we have had for decades upon decades upon decades in our cities. It's kind of crazy. The amount of money we spent on other things, we could have fixed that a long time ago. You know, there's a lot of conspiracies about that, too, that they don't want that. Because if more people become educated and more people become ambitious, it's going to be harder to fuck them over.

2:49:22 It's going to be harder to force them to pay taxes for an inefficient government that's stealing and is full with fraud and waste. Yes. Too many competent people. You won't be able to keep your job being an incompetent legislator. You know, there's a lot of theories about why schools suck so hard. And there's so little money being put into schools. So when you think about the amount of power that a teacher has over a child, you're working all day, okay? You're at work. Your kid is with another adult and then a different adult and then the next hour, a different adult the next hour. And they're shaping their worldview for a solid seven, eight hours a day, five days a week, more than you.

2:50:03 You're working all day. So you come home, like, what are they teaching in school? What? Daddy, they taught me I could be anything I want. I could be a girl. Oh, God. Daddy, they taught me how important communism is. What? Ah, fuck. And what are you going to do? You're going to go to the school and you're going to yell at the meeting. And what do they do when that happens? They turn the parents into terrorists. They say the parents are terrorists. Why? They've called parents terrorists for showing up at school board meetings and yelling that they don't want their kids being taught about sexuality or they don't want their kids being taught about this.

2:50:40 For fuck sake. Yeah, so there's school boards that have tried to censor parents and have tried to label them domestic terrorists for trying to interrupt meetings and say that they don't want their children being taught these ways. And so then what are your options? You're homeschool. You got to, oh, I don't know the time. Fuck. A huge amount of cost. Yeah, dude, it is... It's weird. It's weird out there, man. The state of the U.S. education system at the moment seems fucking wild. There was these studies that came out of Illinois. Basically, no one in high school could read at like a fourth grade level.

2:51:14 It's fucking insane. I saw a video of a teacher crying that none of the students were even remotely competent. Yeah, what is a state that just because students were doing so bad, they completely dropped their standards? Was it Oregon? I forget what governor, but like ridiculously dropped their standards for reading and math. Yeah, it's not good. I mean, that should be something we're really concentrating on. It should be a really important thing in our world that's discussed every day versus whether or not men can play in the WNBA.

2:51:51 Meanwhile, Penn State had a cocaine ring at one of the fraternities. Do you see that? A ring? Cocaine ring. What do you mean a ring? Like two different fraternities were selling cocaine. Oh, not just selling cocaine. They were driving to Philadelphia and back in New York and back to, to like create. A huge cartel. This massive, massive scandal. The dad of one of the guys that was in, that was the leader of it is some attorney dude that was like covering it up, putting money and drugs in the safe. And the pledges that were pledging to go into the fraternities were made to cut and bag the cocaine. That's hilarious. Free labor.

2:52:28 What school was this? Penn State. My God. Fourteen people arrested, including one of them that was the dad. This kid's got like a gazillion charges for it. It's... Meanwhile, they're just entrepreneurs. Look. We need to encourage an entrepreneurial spirit. Entrepreneurs in a bad direction. It's like what we were talking about before. Obsession in the wrong direction. Why? Penn State's great for wrestling. Right? Why don't you go and do wrestling? Or imagine if they put all that effort into a legitimate business.

2:52:55 Yeah. They're probably getting out of college already wealthy. Speaking of that, did you see Ben Ascgren return to wrestling one year after his... Yes. Crazy. I had him on the podcast. I can't believe he did it. It's so nuts with two lung replacements. He's got art of, I mean, he's got lung donations. Like somebody gave him lungs. Immunosuppressant. And yeah, he has to be on immunosuppressant, so his body doesn't reject the lungs. But having lung transplants is crazy. Having two is really crazy. And then wrestling a year later is just beyond insane. He never looked at what the surgery was that he got.

2:53:35 He doesn't know how they did. it so I went and had a luck and it's the full breast it's like you're spread eagled from reverse fish yeah I got to pee and we got to wrap this up all right Christopher it's always a good time to see you appreciate you man appreciate you too tell everybody your podcast whether you can get it whether you can watch it modern wisdom Apple podcast Spotify YouTube just drop an episode with Jocker Willink Matt McCusker and Jeff Dye so you can go and check that one oh nice or you can go back and watch the Hunter Biden episode that's a good combo yeah I'm doing this it's a mostly wise

2:54:06 which is the new series. It's me and McCusker with a serious seat. Hunter Biden was a serious seat for one. We had Huberman for another. We've got a Neil de Gras Tyson coming up in for Brian Johnson. And I'm like throwing another comedian in as well. So it's kind of fun. Beautiful. Beautiful. Appreciate you, man. Until next time. Bye, everybody. Bye.