Joe Rogan Experience #371 — Rick Doblin Transcript

Transcript

0:00 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! but it stands for the multi-discipline. That's what Google is for. It's a whole bunch of human beings. Association to mean that it's publicly supported, a nonprofit. and so I wanted to use the word psychedelic so people knew what I was Now our culture is ready, and I think we can, over the next 10, 20 years, People want to dismiss it, and they can much easier.

3:35 You know, that's the idea. It was psychotomimetic, which means it mimics psychosis. I actually had what I felt was probably the most psychotic or deluded state of my whole life was doing LSD in a flotation tank. weed yeah you know that insanely uncomfortable feeling that you get when you get you get Yeah, he was a real pioneer, like a real pioneer.

5:56 Not so much physically, but more this reliable escape and this delusion of superiority. of arrogant and i don't think he was patient and he was way ahead of his culture you know way ahead when it felt like he was really going downhill from the ketamine and from cocaine and wow yeah You can get into that more Some people say when you get the message, hang up the phone.

9:12 is to continue therapy and do another session. Whereas other folks almost needed to be, I think education is one of the big ones that we're really lacking in this country when it comes to these things. and it's the support that we provide to help people heal themselves. that what it does in the brain is different than what we had been thinking. And we had been thinking that it makes the brain speed up,

11:35 narrow and look at some of it, what we need to do either for survival or for we focus. And point of view, you have to show something safe and efficacious, but you don't have to explain how it works. So what I've done is tried to be strategic and tried to focus on the stuff that's essential to move the culture forward, that our mind is filled with noise.

13:51 what i should have said it's just it's not that it's not important it's just sometimes there are the now and to enjoy uh just enjoy the experience of life itself yeah i've never really felt or like a therapeutic setting where you're not paying attention to all those daily things yeah where you can sink deeper to um other questions like super uncomfortable just really bad but those always i benefited from those every one of them

16:45 ambulance have you heard that before brian yeah we played it on here that's right we played it Burning Man, Boom, other festivals where we provide and organize teams of therapists and Yeah, can you please send rescue to... Can you please send rescue? Have you guys been drinking today too? I don't know. We made brownies, and I think we're dead. Okay, how much did you guys have? I don't know. We made brownies, and I think we're dead.

18:58 Okay, guess her. Can you look? Just please send rescue. Okay. Boy, why is that funny? I'll tell you ate all of them. Okay. Eh. death and ego death of letting go of who your narrow sense of who you are and opening up into I mean, not even an ego death, just an absolute fear of the fact that you don't know what Well, it's what you said right before is people start thinking it was lace or something, but it's not.

21:48 i have a baboon heart type shit like it's like it's a broken heart or there's something with a yeah i've blacked out five times in my life wow you know and they've tried everything they've done Yeah, we're talking about psychedelic medicine, psychedelic spirituality, Yeah, yeah. is this We need help. We need tools. I just think the idea is very strange when we know that, look, our bodies are these weird biological machines that we're constantly feeding different things to.

26:13 We kind of have a sense that maybe that's the way it's been large parts of human history, So our study right now that we're doing, and again, with MDMA for post-traumatic stress disorder. And I had pretty much given up hope about getting a police officer actually to volunteer. And they've never once done it, but they're totally supportive of what I do.

28:13 she wasn't in enough pain anymore. that was just really shot home from the 30s on. What about hemp? That's why. you met Aubrey up in San Francisco. One of the people on MAPS's board of directors is David Bronner. Yeah. Well, David and his brother Mike have built this business from, they don't advertise what they do is they well they do now bronner soap kill it go get it well

31:56 is that hemp which can be a food which can be any number of different things and can be grown in the that we'll become whatever we will become. not only these people that let themselves get out of control, And you just hear some 1970s music playing over that. Sorry. Or at least help them see more human rights, more freedom. The gay marriage thing, the fact that Idaho got it before California, that hurt.

34:57 Oh, God. For real. So why'd you do it? I love her as a human being. up to some system you know to prove that a relationship that i'm in is valuable to me I've heard women say that. I felt like I did something that I always thought was ridiculous. I've seen people that got along great, Right. Yes, definitely. And like I said, I am in no way saying that I'm not pro-relationship.

39:21 have to pay for this person well it's like when you described that somebody takes left, if you decide that your success is how many of them stay married, that's not necessarily the smartest thing to do. really i am son of a i am i might as well that's that shit that i've given you this stuff that is because they initially created it Because apparently it works for narcolepsy. It just happened to work for narcolepsy. People who how it got approved right right but apparently it works for narcolepsy okay

41:52 poor decision-making capabilities, They got you. that's speed that's a completely different sort of experience but for something like What do I do? I think this is something called NuVigil. One-fourth of them are on Oxycontins. Oh, I see. That's the big reason that I always hear, and the big disease is narcolepsy. Listen, I have gone in for operations before,

45:47 And I was like, this doesn't even hurt though. But meanwhile, if you're a person who's easily taking pain meds, not just for the pain, but he was kind of getting addicted, dependent on them. I just read that letter on the airplane here. Yeah. They've heard about it anyway. And we've had articles in Stars and Stripes and the Marine Corps Times and Military.com

48:54 Kickstarter doesn't take medical issues, but Indiegogo does. ptsd uh treatment includes only three days of mdma i think people need to understand that all The dabbling in psychedelics is all sort of done with anecdotal evidence passed on by friends or books that you've read or all these, you know, our review of the literature. We have a treatment manual that describes what the therapy component

51:12 thing that's really politically blocked right now is marijuana research what that's hilarious it's well? Was it a social consensus? And it turns out that in the late 1980s, there was a lot of, and they had been suppressing things for decades. And they said, sure, we'll give this up. They had the National Institute on Drug Abuse. because who can act like the pharmaceutical companies?

54:31 research all over the world. And nobody's had a serious adverse event that left them harmful. experienced great personality benefits that stuck with them. Yeah, that was the study of psilocybin in people who were spiritually inclined, thought that psychedelics had some genuine spiritual potential. And Martin Luther King And it acts quicker. And nine out of the 20 people had either a partial or a full

57:42 getting my undergraduate degree, I decided to uniformly positive. They lost their fear of death, and they felt more focused on the here It's really interesting that you said that what they had was a real religious experience Whether you really went to a place and talked to super spiritual, highly intelligent beings And our culture, how we're... is for exploring not for deciding hmm that's interesting although some things do get changed

1:01:16 MDMA. He was a physician. he as was with his mother and his siblings at the wow so that was the arm culture wasn't and i think even the if you read the electric Kool-Aid acid test, you know, there's ways in which people are damaged and left behind. And that's something where I felt they weren't quite ready for that. That's really good advice, except there's some really annoying people out there.

1:03:54 You can't. like one of those fix-me-up shows, of it themselves yes and if they're and they own it and that's where they become empowered and you I don't give a fuck. Twenty-two veterans a day are committing suicide. enhances the pain control. experiences there's a woman that wrote a book honor thy daughter about her you know, it made sense 50 years ago. It absolutely does.

1:07:50 And he was talking about the importance of an acid trip that he had where it took away his fear of dying. Yeah, I spent years trying to meet him because I knew that he had done LSD therapy in the 60s. us in a lot a lot of different ways and he was so human that he would be from JR and known all over the um the atmosphere for an actor actors get picked for things and if you're very controversial

1:09:59 The transformation from MDMA as a secret, quiet, therapeutic drug. And what he's talking about is this discussion he had with one of the police officers in Dallas. Not necessarily to take MDMA. You know, if it's like some dude like that, like, don't make it Larry Hagman, make it, you know, some other famous TV star. Ah. with cancer had they were um just loved Dallas and loved I Dream of Jeannie and oh that's right

1:12:36 Oh, wow. We're going to make it now, bitch. And we ended up, just a few months before he died, going up in seaplanes and stuff onto this island where Andy Wye You never hear about a positive drug experience like that from a very respected person. facetime start 29 28 before i had an iphone and uh you didn't have an iphone when you met him how Albert Hoffman, to pivot just for a second, was such a perfect example.

1:15:40 Wow. How old was he when he tried it? In the united states in his 80s that's incredible it was um there were I think maybe even before... But it looks to me like it's eight to ten years. get married that's what he kept saying i believe this shit these fags want to get married and then Okay. somehow or another it's possible to cure a person of being gay and if they believe in

1:18:54 How are you rational? And I finally felt that growing up with the Vietnam War, that that was something that now I was being called to fight. And I decided to become a draft resistor. and how can we help people to counter that with love, with hope, you know just the way that this religious fundamentalism against gay marriage i mean It's almost like they're in cahoots.

1:22:39 But at the same time, we have to work through groups and work through government. That's hilarious. And they only can review protocols for marijuana because they've got sitting on this And I think it's a symbol. jobs. It was a way to block the hemp industry, various things like that. But it largely was a minor thread in American history until the 60s and white suburban people started, kids started

1:25:57 responsible ways need to do so, need to speak about it where possible and need to demonstrate Right, yeah. driving under the influence yeah for metabolites right that you took from pot a week ago right that you are impaired, but you don't think you're impaired. So you drive a little slower. I didn't. They have all these different... That's funny. I don't like, there's a lot of things

1:29:52 if i had a problem with some people getting high and driving but i know some people are impaired Please. And I was going to bring that to John who hadn't tried the different isomers yet. So you're thinking about this as you're And so it happened. I've had that happen many times. where he was shooting himself oh god he was in terrible shape so he was shooting ketamine oh

1:33:24 He was hurt. And he was an older man, and he probably figured, I think it is. People are depressed, you know, if they serve or help others. necessary. And I think even... That's a hard he's going to be able to work through that like what the fuck are you talking about yeah that's If they accept it, it can give them the chance in the rest of their life to make up for it.

1:37:28 that you can accept that. We know we have massive government corruption. or through meditation or even some through religious chanting and learning how control of your breath can change states of mind. overdeveloped intellectually look at our technology which is miraculous yeah um miraculous, and we have capacities now to alter the planet with global warming, but we don't have the intellect from religion and morals, you know,

1:41:04 The whole universe itself the fact that there's a floating ball quarter size of the earth You live and you die. and having the sense that while some of us are privileged in all different ways to really be healthy and be wonderful and in wonder without being so threatened, that there's a lot of people that aren't, and that we have to not only feel those moments, but then try to somehow, as Martin Luther King talked about, the arc of history.

1:43:56 It takes a while to get up there. And somehow or another, it's just above us. Yeah, we're out of touch with that a lot. And we just went out, and so these—it was Ramadan, too. We are on a big, organic spaceship. We're the first generation or two that's ever had that image. not reacting to the green light project with uh for national history day and with a couple of her girlfriends they did a project on

1:48:38 and people were cheering and talking about things, nationalism the idea of nationalism seems so much more preposterous they're kids. you know, fundamentalists i think because of the forces of globalization because it's harder to sustain because there's something deeper that connects us. I think there's also a problem that people frustrating for us and it is frustrating for

1:52:45 but but we're not quite so scared fortunately and the um this idea of having a 20 30 year plan or Who made that quote, history is a race between education whoever it was It seems to be also that sometimes it almost feels like people need an antagonist i used to play this game um i grew up in Chicago in Winnetka and Lake Michigan, of jujitsu and of martial arts is that you're really only as good as your training partners

1:56:06 who imitate the fact that you know that there's a high level of the art form in that area so like strong local scene and that's another one that's pure because it's not really attached to Hollywood and because of them in this one particular area, it started to take off. Right. life as if there's a finite amount of resources and they have to get theirs and that's what leads

1:58:48 A generous, bountiful mentality can be enforced as well. yeah but but we've had to have that attitude that that the resources are out there and once we can I think it's possible. That's really what should happen. I agree, but I think the people that have done things that have put people in jail for things along those lines, for selling pot or for growing pot or for owning pot, they're criminals.

2:01:21 and to talk about how a different approach is necessary. working to keep these drugs illegal so that they profit and that's's creepy. There's some real reprehensible shit that's going on. would fix the woes that society has more than anything bad in and of themselves right it's how they're used and our whole drug policy is there's good And what we want to do is try to change these value judgments, end prohibition, support people's human rights to explore their own consciousness, to have freedom of thought, and to find a way to integrate into a society that's moving forward.

2:05:11 People twist it and say the FDA has rejected marijuana as a medicine, which they have not. a medicine. And I think we'd be five, six years away from making marijuana into an FDA approved Once you've done that, then there's phase one, two, three, and four. And phase one How well do your measures work? Wow. So then once you have figured out your designs

2:08:33 about any other drug that they've ever approved in their entire history. And the reason is because because we've already shown in Phase II studies funded by the state of California that when you combine marijuana with opiates, many people tell me stories. I know the Sid Barrett story from Pink Floyd is a famous one. so that people can work through it. So I think that LSD has that potential to destabilize people, but

2:11:18 and four hours later administer MDMA. maybe at the two hours, you could administer MDMA there. So you think that's a really good combination then? Have you done any studies like what the difference is between like hippie flipping and candy flipping, where people are like, These were actually designed together where it was like a candy where it had both of the chemicals in it.

2:14:29 independent raters you have to have uh treatment resistant means you have to have had ptsd and The pharmaceutical companies aren't interested Well, I think what you're doing is awesome Yeah, I would say that this can't be refuted. Getting that information, having it on the Internet, Oh, nice. I thought it was a matter of time. Well, I was on the board of Normal for a while,

2:17:57 when you see that it's still illegal after all this? and they went through all these ridiculous things about the pharmacy had to have bulletproof glass, But we eventually prevailed. And I visited him. I hadn't talked to him, and since that point, So even though we have all this And videos are not searchable on Google. What's the Twitter page? are harm reduction

2:23:17 about what they think. Are these tools, maybe they use them poorly, maybe they use them well, Yes. a test, and maybe even to start out. So we avoid a backlash. There would be psychedelic clinics mushrooms and And I think the answer to that is clearly yes. He thought that we were going to reach that supposedly mapped novelty Yeah, so i think if And look at all these risks of MDMA and all this stuff. And I was like, well,

2:28:56 And then we surfaced with the study. You don't have to extract anything. That's what my parents thought. was sad about it but when i took lsd for first time, I felt that it touched the parts of my psyche I'm glad we could pull it off, Maps News on Yeah. I want to sleep. If you use the code name Rogan in the referral box, you could save some cash. I'm a mess lately.

2:32:01 And we'll see you soon.